Controllers entry level job?

CT4ME

CT4ME

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CT4ME
Controller- an entry level job?

'Saw a special TV report about FAA controllers being hired off the street with pretty weak requirements. 10,000 to be hired over the next 10 years, with about 6,000 to be hired in the next 5 years. Median pay about $123K. Starting salary of $37K the day they finish the 12-week paid training.
Until recently all controllers were hired from ex-military or CTI training schools. CTI applicants are fully trained (at their own cost). The new policy changes the focus to off-the-street hiring with no experience at all. Weird.
Here's the TV Report
Graduates from schools like this, are being passed-over or seemingly systematically eliminated from consideration.
 
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CT4ME said:
Until recently all controllers were hired from ex-military or CTI training schools.
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Depends on what you mean by "recently". There was a big off-the-street hiring spree in 2009.
 
The only requirement to get a federal government job these days is to be above room temperature. Sad.
 
I'm a CTI graduate doing some non-FAA controlling right now. I'm glad to have paid an arm and a leg for the program and then basically have it all washed down the drain.

:mad2:

Off the street hiring has always been around, but the FAA would consider CTI grads first. Now, it just doesn't matter. But don't worry guys, the FAA wanted to diversify controllers and are really only hiring women and minorities at the moment, instead of the most qualified candidates. You're most likely talking to some that are in training right now.
 
Since when does graduating college or getting certified in something an automatic guarantee for a job?
 
I wouldn't say the OTS hiring practice is common with the FAA. At my brother's facility he says it's still mostly CTI and former military. They hired one OTS guy a couple years ago who was a used car salesman. Turned out to be one of their best controllers. You never know.

I can understand the disappointment of the CTI people but you can find just as many veterans who have real world ATC experience who are ticked off as well. College or military experience by no means guarantees a job. Heck, with some of these facility washout rates, you might not even make it through training. I've heard from friends as many as 50 % don't make the cut during OJT.
 
If anyone is really interested in the true 411 of an ATC job, I have a buddy who is wrapping up his ATC Academy training at OKC and will be starting at ZFW this summer. I'm sure he would be very willing to share his experience with you.
 
It wasn't the off-the-street hiring aspect that I found mind-boggling; that's fine if they want to do that. It was the introduction of a filtering criteria unrelated to the skills needed - and applied under the full knowledge that there were students who had already invested time and money that might not have otherwise done so had they been fore-warned.
The FAA now requires air traffic control applicants to take an online, biographical questionnaire as part of the testing process.
Comprised of 63 questions, such as "What has been the major cause of your failures?" and "(how many) high school sports (did you participate) in"?
[...]
In fact, nine out of ten CTI graduates failed the biographical questionnaire effectively washing them out. ​
 
Just get in the "stuck mic" website and you can read about all that is ATC.
 
This seems like a good place for my first post on POA. I was an off-the-street hire in 2010, but having an aviation background (CFI and flying for fun since college) gave me a good starting point in ATC training. I'm not going to defend the FAA's hiring process, which is opaque and baffling to say the least. The last round (after the February public posting) was pretty much a joke, netting a small fraction of the expected new hires.

If the FAA is going to come anywhere close to its overall hiring targets (3,000 in the next 5 years, 10,000 by 2024), it's going to have to hire from a wide range of sources. There are undoubtedly some great CTI candidates waiting to get picked up, but how many more have moved on to another career choice, having hung around this long since graduation without getting into the FAA?

The reality is, while the published requirements for the job posting may seem pretty low, there are many people who can't make it in this career field. Having a college degree doesn't guarantee success. Nor, for that matter, does having a CTI degree.

To clarify the OP, CTI grads do not come out of the schoolhouse "fully trained (at their own cost)." The FAA has done a disservice by setting a low common standard for CTI curricula. The best programs provide much of the training that new hires get at the FAA Academy in OKC, including time in tower or radar simulators. A handful (Beaver CC), give you a control tower operator's card as part of the program. Many others give you neither. Those students graduate with a lot of conceptual knowledge but little experience, simulated or otherwise, and thus require just as much "on the job" training as an off-the street hire.
 
As someone who will be attending a cti school in the fall, I find this very intriguing to say the least. The schools all advertise a 99% pass rate at the academy but say it may take you another year or two to get to the academy and then a little bit longer to get hired on.

Regardless it would make more sense to give CTI grads an edge.
 
Friend of mine is a recent CTI grad and an absolute aviation nut (and pilot), really gung-ho to do the job, and should be really good at it. He applied and the web site rejected him. NOT the way to hire lots of qualified folks...
 
flyingcheesehead said:
He applied and the web site rejected him. NOT the way to hire lots of qualified folks...
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Agreed. We spent a lot of time scratching our heads after the rejection figures came out. I believe even the FAA hiring people were expecting to get 20% through that initial "background screen," but ended up somewhere in the single digits. At that rate, they'll never make their hiring targets. I'm personally a little surprised there hasn't been another public job posting yet, though I'd expect one in the coming months, simply because the FAA Academy is ramping up again and needs new people to fill those class seats.
 
I wish I could wrap my head around the age 31 rule. I just don't understand how they came up with that number to be the age cutoff.

I have a CTO, and multiple radar ratings from the military. A couple years ago I applied. My birthday is 12 Jan. I submitted my application on 13 Jan and was turned down.
Kinda silly, but thems the breaks I guess...
 
AmazonChitlin said:
I wish I could wrap my head around the age 31 rule. I just don't understand how they came up with that number to be the age cutoff.

I have a CTO, and multiple radar ratings from the military. A couple years ago I applied. My birthday is 12 Jan. I submitted my application on 13 Jan and was turned down.
Kinda silly, but thems the breaks I guess...
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It sucks, I know. A one day miss on the cutoff is brutal. The FAA wants controllers to be able to work for at least 25 years. Since they kick you out at 56, 31 became a cutoff date.
 
I think people misunderstood me. Just because I was a CTI grad doesn't mean that I believe I deserve a job. Assumptions are always a good thing on here, I suppose.

denverpilot said:
An article I ran across tonight says it's about FAA not being able to hit their "diversity" numbers with the school grads. I hope it's not true, but I suspect it probably is.

Apparently the new "we value diversity over competency" dog-whistle is "opening the aperture". Bend over and open that aperture wide...

http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/story/2...-passed-over-for-jobs-despite-being-qualified
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That's exactly what it's about. I don't know anyone who wasn't baffled by what happened in Feb.
 
I don't have a dog in this scrum, but I did notice that everyone but one whipped past the 'background check' so fast it is invisible. Perhaps it is not so invisible inside the selection process. Yeah, diversity raises it's nasty, slimy head. Nothing we can do about that but I doubt it is the universal answer to rejection of folks who consider themselves prime candidates for the position.

I know you young'ns believe that a bust for pot is akin to the Red Badge Of Courage. But I suspect that FAA executive staff and then clear on up to the Justice Department, does not share your belief system. Nor do they consider your traffic citations to be laughable. Or the time the cops had to peel your drunken butt off that lady's lawn. Or that your longest time holding a job was 4 months. Etc. Etc. I suspect lots of magic thinking going on amongst the applicants.

Now, let me make a suggestion. Use the process to your advantage. None of us are of pure genetic origin - ala. that offensive white supremacist guy terrorizing a small town recently in the news who showed 16% Negro DNA :D
If you want the job bad enough go pay to have a genetic screen done. If you have even the tiniest amount of Negro, American Indian, Eskimo, Latino, Asian, India/Pakistan, etc. DNA show up in the screen, then you are a (taa daa) minority :goofy:
If you do not understand what to do then, you are too slow to have the job.

dr. o
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
I think people misunderstood me. Just because I was a CTI grad doesn't mean that I believe I deserve a job. Assumptions are always a good thing on here, I suppose.


That's exactly what it's about. I don't know anyone who wasn't baffled by what happened in Feb.
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But you do deserve a job if some OTS guy got a position over you. Same goes for any veteran with real world experience. To take an applicant with no experience whatsoever over CTI / military is outrageous. An OTS person deserves a shot but only after you select those with experience and only then should it be a high scoring applicant.

The frustration that I hear in the article echoes from what my brother and friends have told me. It's not just an OTS problem, they're getting candidates that show up to their facility that were pushed through Ok City. Now they're in a facility that's way over their head and can't hack it. My brother said thèy have 9 in radar training right now and maybe 3 look like they'll make it. Same thing other friends have said. No one is really impressed with the new crop of controllers that have gone through the program within the last few years. My brother is so frustrated that he can't wait to retire. Just an overall lack of attention to detail and ATC knowledge being exhibited. What he calls it is a "kindler more gentler FAA" where controllers aren't held to a standard and freely commit errors with no repercussions. It all started with the ATSAP nonsense of where mistakes are fine, just file a report on it.

ATC used to be something special. It was a job that highly regarded and deadly serious. When I did it in the Marines it was very competive and we washed people out left and right. So much so that the base Sgt Maj was wondering why so many former controllers were doing odd jobs around base waiting to be reclassified. We simply told him "not everyone can do this job." It seems that the FAA is under the impression that everyone can do the job if you push people through the system. All that does is sacrifice safety in order to achieve diversity. Brilliant strategy.
 
denverpilot said:
An article I ran across tonight says it's about FAA not being able to hit their "diversity" numbers with the school grads. I hope it's not true, but I suspect it probably is.

Apparently the new "we value diversity over competency" dog-whistle is "opening the aperture". Bend over and open that aperture wide...

http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/story/2...-passed-over-for-jobs-despite-being-qualified
Click to expand...

I know one young black man, pilot, graduate, met the requirements, who was turned down too. :dunno:
 
CT4ME said:
http://www.sgvtribune.com/general-n...-from-getting-jobs-as-air-traffic-controllers
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Lol! Those bio questions remind me of the questions in military flight aptitude tests. Forget that you passed all the technical questions. If you don't come off as the right type of candidate, they don't want you. Bio questions should be nothing more than an instrument to gauge what type of individual is applying. There should be a separate one on one interview to determine really if the applicant meets the grade. Previous experience and technical scores should be weighted for more than a bio.
 
I would think it difficult to find/cultivate that many people with no real social skills. Maybe the recruiters are hanging out in Star Trek conventions or something. Or staking out some Aspergers support groups.
 
MarkZ said:
It sucks, I know. A one day miss on the cutoff is brutal. The FAA wants controllers to be able to work for at least 25 years. Since they kick you out at 56, 31 became a cutoff date.
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That makes sense, and I can understand that. Since you seem to understand the workings, let me ask you this then:

Why can a civilian working at a DOD facility get on after 31, however military personnel working that same facility, in the same job, can't? I would say it'd have to do with being able to buy back your time, but I'm not sure how it would be different than someone in uniform buying back theirs...

Hope that makes sense. It's late and I'm a little tired...
 
AmazonChitlin said:
That makes sense, and I can understand that. Since you seem to understand the workings, let me ask you this then:



Why can a civilian working at a DOD facility get on after 31, however military personnel working that same facility, in the same job, can't? I would say it'd have to do with being able to buy back your time, but I'm not sure how it would be different than someone in uniform buying back theirs...



Hope that makes sense. It's late and I'm a little tired...
Click to expand...


I don't know how DOD facilities conduct hiring or recruitment, so I apologize I can't answer your question.
 
AmazonChitlin said:
That makes sense, and I can understand that. Since you seem to understand the workings, let me ask you this then:

Why can a civilian working at a DOD facility get on after 31, however military personnel working that same facility, in the same job, can't? I would say it'd have to do with being able to buy back your time, but I'm not sure how it would be different than someone in uniform buying back theirs...

Hope that makes sense. It's late and I'm a little tired...
Click to expand...

Why not just go DOD anyway? Most of my friends who went FAA started DOD. Even if you never got on with the FAA you'd still have a secure job making good money DOD. Of course you've got contract tower openings as well. Can make good money overseas on those.
 
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