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vkhosid

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Well, not really.

However, I am hoping to get an array of opinions and thoughts, because I have thus far been unable to come up with a particular reason/solution that stands out more than the rest. The issue is this:

Issue: The kitchen counter-top/cabinets are starting to come off of the wall to which they are attached (picture attached at the end of this post).

House: New construction, build completed August, 2020.
Basement: Slab below grade.
1st floor: supported by 11-7/8" TJIs @ 16"O.C.
2nd Floor: Same as 1st.
The wall to which the countertop in question is attached is an exterior wall, sitting on the poured concrete foundation. The image in the picture is one end of the cabinets. The top of the cabinets is coming away further than the bottom. As you follow the crack/gap to the corner of the kitchen, it gets smaller.

I'm sure there's more info that I could add to this, but I just can't think of what I should include. If you want more info, I can certainly answer direct questions.

As I said before, I think I have an idea of what the issue is, but would rather not say it at this point, as it might sway your thoughts/opinions in a particular direciton

Thanks all!!

upload_2021-4-19_8-32-53.pngupload_2021-4-19_8-32-53.png
 
Most builders offer a 1 year warranty. Call up the builder and inquire. Less than a year old I'd say it's the builders problem.

Do you think it is separating the whole length? Can you physically push it back in place and if so is it level? If so push it back up level, locate the studs and drive in a few more screws.

But I'd contact the builder before anything else.
 
GC has already been called and taken a look. He couldn't offer an opinion while he was here, and said he would look into it and get back to me.

It IS separating the whole length, but the separation gets smaller as you go down the length of the crack. I tried pushing it back up against the wall, but it won't budge. I also tried tightening the screws that are attaching it to the wall, and they will not pull the cabinets closer to the wall. I check the wall, cabinets and floor for plumb/level. Wall is plumb, cabinet is slightly less plumb, leaning to the right (if you're looking at the picture), and the floor is also level-ish....I ran a string across the floor, and it seems to be bowing towards the center of the span; somewhere between 3/16" and 1/4" at the center of the span.

I know it's under warranty, and will not be my problem. But, at the same time, I want to be certain that the underlying issue is taken care of. My fear is that they are going to slap some caulking on it, and call it a day. Obviously, I won't allow that to happen, but I want to be assured that fix is not a band-aid, but an actual fix.

That's the reason I'm trying to get a wide range of opinions....I figure if enough **** is thrown against the wall, something will stick... know what i'm sayin'?
 
Gotcha, yeah don't let them cheap out, they likely try to caulk it and slap up a piece of trim! Sigh

Can you see the joist when down in the basement? If so it is level? If bowing down get a floor jack and a 4x4 and push it up till level and see how cabinet looks.
 
simtech said:
Gotcha, yeah don't let them cheap out, they likely try to caulk it and slap up a piece of trim! Sigh

Can you see the joist when down in the basement? If so it is level? If bowing down get a floor jack and a 4x4 and push it up till level and see how cabinet looks.
Click to expand...

Unfortunatley (or fortunately), its a finished basement where my daughter's playroom and my office are located. So, having a look at the TJIs is not that simple.
 
That makes it harder but man I'd have a hard time thinking the TJI's would be sagging unless they are way to small for the span. No cracks in the ceiling down in the basement?

When you tried pushing the cabinet back up against the wall did you remove the attaching screws first? Does the lack of plumb on the cabinet correspond to the level of gap? I'm trying to go the easy route and believe it's just a cabinet attaching issue...hopefully
 
The gap at the countertop appears to match the gap at the cabinet. That gap appears to be consistent top to bottom. It looks like the cabinets aren’t attached to the wall. That should be relatively simple to fix but it’ll leave a gap at the flooring, and that’s easy enough to hide.
 
simtech said:
That makes it harder but man I'd have a hard time thinking the TJI's would be sagging unless they are way to small for the span. No cracks in the ceiling down in the basement?

When you tried pushing the cabinet back up against the wall did you remove the attaching screws first? Does the lack of plumb on the cabinet correspond to the level of gap? I'm trying to go the easy route and believe it's just a cabinet attaching issue...hopefully
Click to expand...
Nope, no cracks that I can see from the bottom...just a few nail pops from the house settling, but nothing that looks out of the ordinary.
I'm with you, I hope it's a simple problem, but I also don't want this to be a problem down the road after the warranty runs out, where it becomes MY problem.


Stewartb said:
The gap at the countertop appears to match the gap at the cabinet. That gap appears to be consistent top to bottom. It looks like the cabinets aren’t attached to the wall. That should be relatively simple to fix but it’ll leave a gap at the flooring, and that’s easy enough to hide.
Click to expand...
The countertop and cabinets are lined up and have separated from the wall together because they are glued. However, the gap at the top is larger than the gap at the bottom (by the baseboards). Following your assumption a bit further, lets assume that the cabinet/countertop just slid away from the wall. Because of the discrepancy in the size of the gaps at top/bottom, something is also tilted (either the wall-to the left, or the cabinets-to the right)....either way, to me it seems that something is out of level/plumb.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Man... I wonder what else they screwed up that you can’t see.
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Well, that's kind of my reasoning to try and see what possible causes might have lead to this cabinet/countertop thing. It's sort of my litmus test. If he comes in and says, "yeah its expected and happens all the time. We just need to put some caulking and trim to cover the gaps." Then I will be wary of EVERYTHING else...If his response is more in line with a real solution to the root cause rather than a band-aid for the visual, then that could be an indication of his integrity, and I can put more trust in his opinions.....does that make sense?

Because at this point, from my perspective, any time that he needs to spend here fixing things like this is money out of his pocket. And it may be the pessimist in me, but I assume he wants to spend as little money on solutions as possible. And although I still have the warranty for the house, I want to make sure an actual solution is proposed and that this problem doesn't come back in a few years when it becomes MY problem...
 
Call this guy. He'll come in and figure out the problem and then rebuild 3/4 of the house while he's there.

images
 
The problem was there from start. That’s a pretty heavy bead of caulk. It’s just getting worse now. 3/16 to 1/4” ‘bow’ in the slab is a lot. How long a span did you check. A straight edge long enough to span might give you a more accurate result than trying to use a string. If I read right you said ‘vertically’ it’s wider at the top than the bottom so it’s ‘tipping’ away. Shimming at the bottom in the front could help tip it back. Maybe they did that and they’ve worked loose. Trying to pull the cabinet back to the wall with the mounting bolts can present problems. You don’t want the front ‘hanging’ in the air. Something that could’ve happened during construction is a little piece of something got on the floor behind the cabinet preventing them from being pushed flat against the wall. The mounting bolts threads grabbing the wood in the cabinet before grabbing the wood in the stud could contribute to the problem. What kind of floor is there? Is it something ‘raised’ like tiles that’s going to make it hard to get underneath in the front to shim?
 
Ultra dumb question but I’ll ask it.

Have you stuck a level on the floor, wall, or the cabinet yet just to see what it says?

Might be enlightening. Or not.
 
@luvflyin ‘s answer was better. A nice long board along with the level.

That is if you can find a straight piece of lumber these days. LOL.
 
denverpilot said:
@luvflyin ‘s answer was better. A nice long board along with the level.

That is if you can find a straight piece of lumber these days. LOL.
Click to expand...

Yeah. Level isn’t so much the issue here as ‘flat’ is

EDIT: except that if the wall is ‘plumb’ and the slab isn’t level outward from the wall you don’t have a 90 and that would contribute to the problem
 
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luvflyin said:
The problem was there from start. That’s a pretty heavy bead of caulk. It’s just getting worse now. 3/16 to 1/4” ‘bow’ in the slab is a lot. How long a span did you check. A straight edge long enough to span might give you a more accurate result than trying to use a string. If I read right you said ‘vertically’ it’s wider at the top than the bottom so it’s ‘tipping’ away. Shimming at the bottom in the front could help tip it back. Maybe they did that and they’ve worked loose. Trying to pull the cabinet back to the wall with the mounting bolts can present problems. You don’t want the front ‘hanging’ in the air. Something that could’ve happened during construction is a little piece of something got on the floor behind the cabinet preventing them from being pushed flat against the wall. The mounting bolts threads grabbing the wood in the cabinet before grabbing the wood in the stud could contribute to the problem. What kind of floor is there? Is it something ‘raised’ like tiles that’s going to make it hard to get underneath in the front to shim?
Click to expand...

denverpilot said:
Ultra dumb question but I’ll ask it.

Have you stuck a level on the floor, wall, or the cabinet yet just to see what it says?

Might be enlightening. Or not.
Click to expand...

I've checked if the wall is plumb: It is
I've checked if the countertop is level: It also is, but less precise than the wall (meaning, that the bubble falls within the two marks, but not as centered as with the wall)
I've checked if the cabinet is plumb: Same answer as the countertop.

To address your concerned with checking the floor.....if using a board that is long (and straight) enough, and putting a level on that, you will get a false level if the floor bows. because the length of the board will span the bow. Running the string from the exterior wall (point where one end of the TJI is attached) to the load-bearing wall on the other side of the room (where the other end of the TJI is attached) will indicate if the floor is bowing in the middle (which it is, by approx 3/16"-1/4").

@luvflyin : One thing I will correct you on is that the kitchen floor is not slab-on-grade. There is a basement below, and the kitchen is actually supported by TJIs spanning the ceiling of the finished basement. I couldn't see if the cabinets were shimmed at the bottom, as there is a kickplate, finishing trip at the base of the cabinets that is adjacent to the hardwood floor. So, everything is concealed. I agree that there is a lot of caulking there to begin with. But, looking behind the cabinets, you can see a small shim that is placed approximately 3"-4" below the level of the countertop, so I think when installing, they just did a less-than-stellar job of taking everything into account. That doesn't exactly instill confidence, but is at least explainable.

I appreciate all the feedback.....please keep it coming. And the back and forth dialog is also helping, so I genuinely appreciate it.
 
vkhosid said:
I've checked if the wall is plumb: It is
I've checked if the countertop is level: It also is, but less precise than the wall (meaning, that the bubble falls within the two marks, but not as centered as with the wall)
I've checked if the cabinet is plumb: Same answer as the countertop.

To address your concerned with checking the floor.....if using a board that is long (and straight) enough, and putting a level on that, you will get a false level if the floor bows. because the length of the board will span the bow. Running the string from the exterior wall (point where one end of the TJI is attached) to the load-bearing wall on the other side of the room (where the other end of the TJI is attached) will indicate if the floor is bowing in the middle (which it is, by approx 3/16"-1/4").

@luvflyin : One thing I will correct you on is that the kitchen floor is not slab-on-grade. There is a basement below, and the kitchen is actually supported by TJIs spanning the ceiling of the finished basement. I couldn't see if the cabinets were shimmed at the bottom, as there is a kickplate, finishing trip at the base of the cabinets that is adjacent to the hardwood floor. So, everything is concealed. I agree that there is a lot of caulking there to begin with. But, looking behind the cabinets, you can see a small shim that is placed approximately 3"-4" below the level of the countertop, so I think when installing, they just did a less-than-stellar job of taking everything into account. That doesn't exactly instill confidence, but is at least explainable.

I appreciate all the feedback.....please keep it coming. And the back and forth dialog is also helping, so I genuinely appreciate it.
Click to expand...

Ah. I just keyed off on ‘slab’ and didn’t read thoroughly. I think ‘flatness’ may be as much, if not more of an issue as level is. Anyway, are you sure you have a good bubble? To check, find a flat spot. Doesn’t have to be perfectly level, just flat. Put the level on it and look at the bubble. Now spin the level 180 degrees and put back down in exactly the same spot. If the bubble looks just like it did before, you have a good bubble. If not, you got a bad bubble. Another way is to shim up one end of the level until the bubble shows level. Now spin and put back down. If ya got a good bubble it will show level again. You can do this to check the plumb bubbles also. You don’t swap it end for end though. You just give it a 180 degree twist while holding it upright.
 
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@vkhosid . Another thing that could be happening is shrinkage(Seinfeld clip to follow) and settling. If the floor joists or girders under them were ‘green’ wood they will shrink a little as they dry out. And if they constructed in a way that some of the joists were nailed to side members instead of resting on sill plates there can be settling there. After putting in the cabinets and flooring, then comes bringing in the appliances. And living in the place. People in the kitchen walking around and doing stuff. All weight. It doesn’t take much to result in visible results when it affects the angle of perpendicular surfaces.
 
luvflyin said:
@vkhosid . Another thing that could be happening is shrinkage(Seinfeld clip to follow) and settling. If the floor joists or girders under them were ‘green’ wood they will shrink a little as they dry out. And if they constructed in a way that some of the joists were nailed to side members instead of resting on sill plates there can be settling there. After putting in the cabinets and flooring, then comes bringing in the appliances. And living in the place. People in the kitchen walking around and doing stuff. All weight. It doesn’t take much to result in visible results when it affects the angle of perpendicular surfaces.
Click to expand...

All valid points....
I do have a set of architectural/structural drawings for the house. Allegedly, floor is sitting on 11-7/8:" TJIs @ 16"O.C. I sure hope they installed the TJIs on sill plates and didn't just nail them into a vertical member. I'm not much into construction standards, but sitting them ontop of a sill plate seems like more of a "standard" installation than attaching them at the ends to vertical studs....
 
vkhosid said:
All valid points....
I do have a set of architectural/structural drawings for the house. Allegedly, floor is sitting on 11-7/8:" TJIs @ 16"O.C. I sure hope they installed the TJIs on sill plates and didn't just nail them into a vertical member. I'm not much into construction standards, but sitting them ontop of a sill plate seems like more of a "standard" installation than attaching them at the ends to vertical studs....
Click to expand...
It is. But I’ve come across some pretty creative stuff. On older construction, like 30’s, 50’s and 60’s. I doubt if that’s the case on yours. I just looked up those TJI’s, shrinkage wouldn’t be a problem either.
 
A structural engineer friend of my parents made mention of the fact that he thinks that the vibration of the garbage disposal and/or the dishwasher may have caused the shift....I am not convinced by this idea....Thoughts?

Assuming they used TJIs, how likely is it a structural member failure of some sort? I mean...who knows how they attached them, where they cut openings (if any), etc....

This has literally kept me awake at night the last few days.
 
vkhosid said:
Assuming they used TJIs, how likely is it a structural member failure of some sort? I mean...who knows how they attached them, where they cut openings (if any), etc....
Click to expand...
Pretty freaking minimal. Someone could have cut the flange on one - but that seems unlikely. Holes in the web are pretty typical. The easy way to "attach" them is to plunk them down on top of a wall. It would take some effort to not have them sitting on something solid. Also, they are sized for deflection which makes them a long way from being on the edge of a catastrophic failure.

Most likely the cabinets were half assed hung from the wall.

Note: I ain't no professional.
 
vkhosid said:
A structural engineer friend of my parents made mention of the fact that he thinks that the vibration of the garbage disposal and/or the dishwasher may have caused the shift....I am not convinced by this idea....Thoughts?

Assuming they used TJIs, how likely is it a structural member failure of some sort? I mean...who knows how they attached them, where they cut openings (if any), etc....

This has literally kept me awake at night the last few days.
Click to expand...

The dishwasher shouldn't impact it because it's normally on the floor, but just has two tabs to the underside of the countertop to avoid tipping forward. There's no way in hell the food disposal has enough vibration to shift a cabinet.
 
SoonerAviator said:
The dishwasher shouldn't impact it because it's normally on the floor, but just has two tabs to the underside of the countertop to avoid tipping forward. There's no way in hell the food disposal has enough vibration to shift a cabinet.
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Are you sure about the garbage disposal...?

This is the model I installed...

upload_2021-4-22_9-28-53.png
 
Three possibilities I see. 1) Cabinets weren't shimmed properly under the front edge and have tipped (or sagged) away from the wall. 2) Wall has leaned away from its initial position. :hairraise: (Even if it's plumb now, it _could_ have been leaning in. Very unlikely.) 3) Floor has sagged and now cabinets are tipping with it. This really seems the most likely to me. Whether it's a major concern is hard to say. Some sagging over time is somewhat likely. But this seems fast...
 
What material is the countertop? It didn't look like granite in the picture, but if it's quartz or some other heavy material and the cabinets weren't shimmed correctly in the front, I'm not sure trying to tighten the cabinet mounting screws would be enough to lift the cabinets back up with a heavy countertop.
 
jsstevens said:
Three possibilities I see. 1) Cabinets weren't shimmed properly under the front edge and have tipped (or sagged) away from the wall. 2) Wall has leaned away from its initial position. :hairraise: (Even if it's plumb now, it _could_ have been leaning in. Very unlikely.) 3) Floor has sagged and now cabinets are tipping with it. This really seems the most likely to me. Whether it's a major concern is hard to say. Some sagging over time is somewhat likely. But this seems fast...
Click to expand...
Occupancy Permit was signed off in mid August, 2020....just as a point of reference.
 
ColoPilot said:
What material is the countertop? It didn't look like granite in the picture, but if it's quartz or some other heavy material and the cabinets weren't shimmed correctly in the front, I'm not sure trying to tighten the cabinet mounting screws would be enough to lift the cabinets back up with a heavy countertop.
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Countertop is quartz.
 
I saw something similar once. An interior pier footing supporting a floor girder post settled, causing the joists to sag. The pier had been cast on uncompacted fill.
 
coach said:
I saw something similar once. An interior pier footing supporting a floor girder post settled, causing the joists to sag. The pier had been cast on uncompacted fill.
Click to expand...
In this particular situation though, I'm not convinced that one end of the TJI supports is the part that settled (more than the rest)....That wouldn't explain the sagging in the middle of the span, would it?
 
Separately, should I start an independent thread on my backyard issue(s)? Or can I ***** about it in this one? Joking aside, that was going to be my next write-up, as I was going to solicit advice regarding that, too!
 
vkhosid said:
In this particular situation though, I'm not convinced that one end of the TJI supports is the part that settled (more than the rest)....That wouldn't explain the sagging in the middle of the span, would it?
Click to expand...

TJI’s are good products. If there is movement or sagging it is most likely either they are not supported properly or the supporting members have moved. I guess it could also be that something is up with the cabinet or subfloor.
I know you put a level on the floor but it appears that the angle between the wall and floor is increasing. I don’t know what your floor finish is but if it is smooth sometimes a marble is telling
 
I build/remodel kitchens and bathrooms every day. A self-leveling laser can be your best friend. You can check the level of an entire room in moments and get a very accurate picture of what the house is doing. In a new home all 4 corners of the room should be very close to the same height as the house is not old enough to have had any severe settling - that should take 50 years. If the corners are off dramatically, get the structure checked by a professional. Get the laser and do some checking. They are commonly available at the big box stores and well under $200. You may find one under $100. You won't even need to buy the tripod - just set it on a counter top or chair.

The most likely answer has already been presented. In new construction it happens often around here that the carpenter responsible for the cabinet installation just doesn't have time to be super picky about the installation. Sometimes the mounting screws don't hit wall studs, sometimes shims don't get set properly, sometimes (perhaps most likely) a careless flooring installer will "adjust" the shims that are left in his way. That would be translated as "knocks them out of his way".

My guess is that the cabinets are not well supported in the front and may have not been well screwed to the wall. The heavy tops are putting a lot of pressure on the cabinets. Pulling off the toe-kick panels and/or shoe molding trims will give you a good sense of weather the fronts of the cabinets are properly supported. These trim pieces will likely be destroyed in the removal process if they were installed the way I install them. A couple hundred dollars will replace them.

Unfortunately, you may not be able to correct the problem without removing the counter tops. If I did find the above mentioned deficiencies, I would attempt to lift the fronts of the cabinets with shims and add tougher screws at the same time to draw the cabinets toward the wall. If that doesn't work, the tops come off and the problem gets solved before they go back in. You will likely hear from the builder that taking the tops out will destroy them. That may be correct unless the offending piece is small enough to come out whole. Do a Google search - I once saw an "inflatable lifter" used to adjust the position of building materials. I didn't pay much attention due to it striking me as gimmicky. Something like that may help make the needed adjustments?

The garbage disposal and dishwasher theories are pure BS by the way. I've put in hundreds with no ill effects, some went in hundred year old houses...

I'm always sorry to see these things happen and I'm sorry it's taking away from the enjoyment of your new house.
 
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