Contacting Ground

drgwentzel

drgwentzel

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Flyers,

I had a student take a checkride and he failed on an item I find silly.

He was told by the examiner to land at a control towered airport near by. When he did, the tower instructed him to clear the runway at a particular point, which he dutifully did. The tower then stated to contact him on the ground frequency... point 7 and he read it back.

My student cleared the hold short line, stopped, and as I have instructed him to do, he reached for his after-landing-checklist. While doing so, the examiner became upset and (according to my student) started yelling at him to put the list down and contact ground immediately! The student related that he went on that you do not perform any checklists until after you contact ground. Examiner kept up the tongue lashing to the point the applicant had to ask him to be quiet if he really wanted him to contact ground control immediately. After the taxi instructions, the examiner continued on about the FAA and runway incursions, and fines and his ticket and continued on and on as they taxiing back to the runway for departure. What this had to do with runway incursions, I don't know.

Anyway...in my opinion, once you receive your taxi clearance, ground control expects you to start taxiing right away, not sit there and perform your checklist. AFAIK, ATC expects you to perform your checklist first before you contact ground. Am I wrong? I get there can be exceptions and we need to be flexible, but there were no pressing issues. The tower guy WAS the ground guy, so if they needed him to move immediately for some reason I'm sure the tower guy would have spoke up.

What does he expect an applicant to do...leave the strobes on, flaps extended, landing light on, carb heat on, etc and taxi that way to the ramp...perform the checklist while taxiing? That's never good...we need to be looking outside the aircraft.

This examiner also advised my student to put away his checklist while he was reviewing it after he completed his preflight inspection. He also admonished him when he reached to ID a navaid, stating that ID'ing a station is not necessary.

Am I old school or too by-the-book as an instructor?! :dunno:

HOW AM I GOING TO INSTRUCT THE STUDENT ON WHAT TO DO WHEN HE EXITS THE &^%$ RUNWAY ON THE RE-TEST?! :confused:
 
Sounds like a bunch of bull**** to me. I'd be taking this to the FSDO and would absolutely never use that examiner again PERIOD.
 
This is how I was taught as well. Full stop after the hold short line, do the after-landing check-list and then contact ground.
 
Flying Viking said:
This is how I was taught as well. Full stop after the hold short line, do the after-landing check-list and then contact ground.
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+1) With the condition that if tower did tell me to contact ground, I'd switch to ground first. I've gotten used to my controller giving me taxi directions while still on the rwy and telling me to "monitor" ground. Different instructins at different airports.
 
The only thing he did wrong IMO is not remind the examiner who the PIC is.

What an obnoxious distraction, at the very least.

He got a pink slip for just that? It would have been justified if he started moving without contacting ground, but not at any point prior to that.

Make sure that the student isn't leaving some important details out, and then call the FSDO. DPEs are not allowed to make up their own rules.

What did the notice of disapproval say the failed task was?
 
maybe call the DPE and ask what he wants to see? It's a chance for open discussion and will get the other side of the story.
 
Have you discussed this with the examiner directly?

Students don't always report things with 100% accuracy, and I'd be interested in the examiner's take.
 
drgwentzel said:
What does he expect an applicant to do...leave the strobes on, flaps extended, landing light on, carb heat on, etc and taxi that way to the ramp...perform the checklist while taxiing? That's never good...we need to be looking outside the aircraft.
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Is there a problem with doing those things while taxiing without use of a checklist?
 
I do not claim to be an expert in this area by any means but I have been chewed out for being slow at contacting ground or slow to taxi after receiving instructions from ground.

Further, I would suggest that the following is not likely to engender a good review:
drgwentzel said:
the applicant had to ask him to be quiet if he really wanted him to contact ground control immediately.
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Have you spoken with the examiner to see if he concurs with your students version of events? If so, I suspect I too would not lean toward using his services again.
 
roncachamp said:
Is there a problem with doing those things while taxiing without use of a checklist?
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In a checkride, where the PTS says that an area of emphasis is checklist use, yes.

It's debatable if a pilot should be looking at the trim wheel or mixture knob while taxiing. Lots of people do, but then lots of people get taxi rash, too.
 
roncachamp said:
Is there a problem with doing those things while taxiing without use of a checklist?
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As a student you are taught to use your checklist religiously. You don't suddenly just break that habit on the checkride.
 
I concur with the others here, 15 seconds to run a post-landing checklist before contacting ground isn't going to cause ground control any heartburn, except maybe at a Class B primary airport. Ideally, I guess I normally switch to ground and monitor while I clean up the airplane, so I know the frequency is clear when I'm ready to transmit, but we're dancing on the head of the pin. If it was such a safety issue, the DPE certainly shouldn't have kept rambling on about it...

ID'ing a navaid isn't required? WTF?

Does this guy have a rep as a Class-1 a$$-hat, or was he just having a bad day?

This seems like the kind of thing where if the DPE had a different "technique", it would be a "teachable moment" in the ride, but not a fail.
 
FastEddieB said:
Have you discussed this with the examiner directly?

Students don't always report things with 100% accuracy, and I'd be interested in the examiner's take.
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Good point. In my job as a motorcycle instructor sometimes my students misinterpret strongly worded, emphatic instructions said in a voice loud enough so they can actually hear me over the motorcycle as yelling because I am upset.

Especially if the student is somewhat sensitive or emotional.
 
Aviate- Navigate -Communicate.
 
Other have mentioned this already, but for crying out loud pick up the damned phone and speak to the examiner. Any other course of action at this point is ridiculous.
Jon
 
MAKG1 said:
In a checkride, where the PTS says that an area of emphasis is checklist use, yes.
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So how is the post landing checklist to be completed when taxi instructions all the way to the ramp are issued before the aircraft exits the runway?

It's debatable if a pilot should be looking at the trim wheel or mixture knob while taxiing. Lots of people do, but then lots of people get taxi rash, too.
Click to expand...

Do they? I don't know why that would be. I can operate switches in cars while driving without any problems. Why should that be difficult in a taxiing aircraft? In a car I'm probably moving much faster than I'd taxi an aircraft and other cars moving at high speed are much closer than any other taxiing aircraft would be.
 
roncachamp said:
So how is the post landing checklist to be completed when taxi instructions all the way to the ramp are issued before the aircraft exits the runway?
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"Stand by." Not that hard.

roncachamp said:
Do they? I don't know why that would be. I can operate switches in cars while driving without any problems. Why should that be difficult in a taxiing aircraft? In a car I'm probably moving much faster than I'd taxi an aircraft and other cars moving at high speed are much closer than any other taxiing aircraft would be.
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Yup, and lots of distracted driving accidents occur, especially among very inexperienced drivers who are playing with car stereos and other distractions. This is a student pilot on his first check ride. An old fart like you probably has tens of thousands of hours of driving or more. This kid probably has several dozen hours of flying, and just a few hours of taxiing at most.

Operate the vehicle. First.

And I know context isn't your strong point, but it's very important here.
 
I agree with those who said the DPE was totally out of line and a call to the FSDO is warranted. As long as the pilot got completely clear of the hold short line, doing the checklist before calling for further taxi is entirely within FAA guidance. Trying to do a checklist while taxiing is a lot more worthy of a bust than delaying for a few seconds before calling for further taxi -- Aviate-Navigate-Communicate, and all that.
 
roncachamp said:
Is there a problem with doing those things while taxiing without use of a checklist?
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I was never taught to use a checklist after landing until I am already in my parking spot and prepping to shut down, carb heat and flaps up is automatic. I have had tower give me clearance to my spot right after clearing the runway, telling me to taxi no delay and simply to monitor ground.
 
roncachamp said:
So how is the post landing checklist to be completed when taxi instructions all the way to the ramp are issued before the aircraft exits the runway?
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Copy them down, then once you exit the runway stop and complete your post-landing checklist. If you are moving too fast and can't copy, exit the runway at the right spot, stop and ask the controller to repeat the instructions. Then copy them. Take 20 seconds to pull the checklist and complete it. Then continue on.

This is a lot of stuff going on at once for a 40-50 hour pilot. Stopping after the hold short line to run a checklist and gain clarification from a controller if needed is not unreasonable at all.
 
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Skyscraper said:
I was never taught to use a checklist after landing until I am already in my parking spot and prepping to shut down, carb heat and flaps up is automatic. I have had tower give me clearance to my spot right after clearing the runway, telling me to taxi no delay and simply to monitor ground.
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Likewise.
 
My mindset is, clear of the runway, checklist, contact groud. Especially at a busy airport. It doesn't help the controller to give instructions, then have a pilot sit there going through the checklist.
 
dell30rb said:
Copy them down, then once you exit the runway stop and complete your post-landing checklist. If you are moving too fast and can't copy, exit the runway at the right spot, stop and ask the controller to repeat the instructions. Then copy them. Take 20 seconds to pull the checklist and complete it. Then continue on.
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Copy them down? Seriously? If you stop you're not complying with the instruction.
 
TommyG said:
My mindset is, clear of the runway, checklist, contact groud. Especially at a busy airport. It doesn't help the controller to give instructions, then have a pilot sit there going through the checklist.
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It doesn't help the controller to have a pilot sit there going through the checklist blocking a runway exit.
 
4CornerFlyer said:
Other have mentioned this already, but for crying out loud pick up the damned phone and speak to the examiner. Any other course of action at this point is ridiculous.
Jon
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Thanks for all the comments. I did call the examiner. The student failed on this issue about ground control as well as turn-around-a-point. We discussed the turn around a point and then I asked what happened at the CT airport concerning ground control. He ignored that question and began talking about how he would like to retest him on go-arounds and some more landings because he felt he did not explore those areas close enough. There was a discussion on the emergency landing and how he likes to present the emergency and how he thinks the applicant should resolve it. We never came back to the ATC communication issue and I started to feel like he knew he over-reacted and just wanted to drop it. I didn't wish to back him in a corner or make him squirm...at least not with my student going back for a re-take in a few days. So I dropped it.


I have not yet been provided the examiner's paper explaining the issues. I am meeting with the student on Saturday and will explain more to the group when I know more.

Once again...thanks for the information, support and advice.

BTW, I having had an opportunity to look it up, but I could not find anything in the Airplane Flying Handbook and I only took a cursory look at the AIM. Does anyone know if some guidance is provided concerning contacting ground at a control towered airport?
 
roncachamp said:
So how is the post landing checklist to be completed when taxi instructions all the way to the ramp are issued before the aircraft exits the runway?



Do they? I don't know why that would be. I can operate switches in cars while driving without any problems. Why should that be difficult in a taxiing aircraft? In a car I'm probably moving much faster than I'd taxi an aircraft and other cars moving at high speed are much closer than any other taxiing aircraft would be.
Click to expand...

I was taught to spend a few seconds doing my post-landing checklist after clearing the runway and, when done, calling ground. I do it pretty quickly.

This seems consistent with the PTS comments re "Single-Pilot Resource Management (SRM)," which presents "Situational Awareness" as one of the six areas of SRM and explicitly says you should keep your "workload to a minimum during taxi operations" in order to increase your awareness during taxiing.

PTS_Situational_Awareness.jpg


It also mentions ATC communications "after landing", but doesn't provide any specific guidance.
 
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roncachamp said:
It doesn't help the controller to have a pilot sit there going through the checklist blocking a runway exit.
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I do not think that after landing checklists are really designed to help the controller in any way.
 
roncachamp said:
Copy them down? Seriously? If you stop you're not complying with the instruction.
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So i'm rolling out and the tower says "exit next left, proceed on taxiway Alpha, left on Bravo to the FBO, monitor this frequency to the ramp"

I have my hands completely full and don't acknowledge. Maybe i'm a student. Or maybe there is a wicked crosswind and i'm rolling out in a taildragger. I take the exit, stop after the hold short line and ask the tower to repeat taxi clearance.

Is that some kind of non-compliance? Have I violated some regulation?


If the tower issues a clearance and asks that I proceed with no delay, and I acknowledge that is another story. You either acknowledge and follow the instructions or declare unable, and then follow whatever comes next.
 
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roncachamp said:
So how is the post landing checklist to be completed when taxi instructions all the way to the ramp are issued before the aircraft exits the runway?


Steven,

I teach my students that if the tower provides instructions while taxiing and it is only to exit the runway and taxi to the ramp via a single taxiway or two, then they can read it back, exit the runway, do the checklist, then taxi to the ramp as instructed.

However, if it's a long winded taxi instruction with hold short stuff, yattie yattie, then I advise them to tell the tower to standby, that they will exit where instructed and then they will re-contact them for the instructions when they are ready to copy them down. I also tell them it never hurts to throw in there that they are a student pilot if it's a solo.

Gene
Click to expand...
 
roncachamp said:
It doesn't help the controller to have a pilot sit there going through the checklist blocking a runway exit.
Click to expand...

It's the pilot's responsibility to perform the after-landing checklist. It's the controller's responsibility to deal with traffic flow as it presents itself.
 
drgwentzel said:
Thanks for all the comments. I did call the examiner. The student failed on this issue about ground control as well as turn-around-a-point. We discussed the turn around a point and then I asked what happened at the CT airport concerning ground control. He ignored that question and began talking about how he would like to retest him on go-arounds and some more landings because he felt he did not explore those areas close enough.
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More reason to call the FSDO -- this examiner is not operating according to the PTS or FAA Order 8900.2
 
drgwentzel said:
It's the pilot's responsibility to perform the after-landing checklist. It's the controller's responsibility to deal with traffic flow as it presents itself.
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Exactly. Never, ever let a controller make his/her problem your problem.
 
If the guy is training in something like a 150, I have no problem with the instructor teaching a pilot to commit a two step after-landing checklist to memory. Put the flaps up, carb heat in and taxi the plane to the ramp.

Thats what I did anyway. Add lean for taxi to that list. I used the paper checklist on my checkride.

I use an after landing checklist on more complex airplanes or stuff I haven't flown in awhile.
 
drgwentzel said:
*** Does anyone know if some guidance is provided concerning contacting ground at a control towered airport?
Click to expand...

The AIM says to do so "immediately," which seems contradictory to what I've been taught, but maybe it's never been an issue because my post-landing checklist is so short:

AIM_4-3-20.jpg
 
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