Constant Speed Prop use in traffic pattern

[luvflyin]

Flying a C-185 with the prop full forward will not make you any friends on the ground. If you are doing pattern work, there is no need for max rated takeoff power and reducing prop RPM for METO of much less is good practice.

GUMPS is done on downwind, base and final and repeated as often as necessary to arrive at the runway, ready to go around.

The OP was asking about prop use in the pattern and the answer is to manage power by adjusting MP and RPM to transition from climb, level and descent as needed.

I had been looking at it as entering the pattern and landing. But yeah, closed traffic is a thing to. There are some airports where not getting the best performance you can on departure could have consequences. Here’s one.

 

[ja_user]

Prop setting is as important as climbing at VY, keeping a tight pattern and keeping everything else tight.
There is rarely a reason to shove the prop forward like an ape on downwind, just because someone told you to do that once..

 

[IK04]

Compton is one of those airports that give you pretty much no options if your only engine quits.

The first time I went in there, I thought I was lost and lined up with a construction site. I thought "who would put a runway there?"

 

[luvflyin]

Compton is one of those airports that give you pretty much no options if your only engine quits.

The first time I went in there, I thought I was lost and lined up with a construction site. I thought "who would put a runway there?"

Once upon a time someone at the airport probably said “who would construct anything around here”

 

[tspear]

Prop setting is as important as climbing at VY, keeping a tight pattern and keeping everything else tight.
There is rarely a reason to shove the prop forward like an ape on downwind, just because someone told you to do that once..

Read my post #24 and you might figure out the answer. It has nothing to do with being na ape, or being what was taught. It has everything to do with learning to think and understanding human nature, human factors, and the design interface.

Tim

Sent from my HD1907 using Tapatalk

 

[MBDiagMan]

Compton is one of those airports that give you pretty much no options if your only engine quits.

The first time I went in there, I thought I was lost and lined up with a construction site. I thought "who would put a runway there?"

I think the question is, why would people build their house near an airport? I expect the airport was there before most of the houses.

i am SO fortunate to not fly out of an airport that is right, smack in the middle of such urban sprawl.

 

[Salty]

I had been looking at it as entering the pattern and landing. But yeah, closed traffic is a thing to. There are some airports where not getting the best performance you can on departure could have consequences. Here’s one.

View attachment 96860

Not departing with best performance could have worse consequences there.

 

[Larry in TN]

When a pilot is first trained in a complex aircraft, the instructor will likely teach them to do the full GUMPS check early enough that he isn't rushed later in the approach. As the pilot becomes comfortable in the airplane, preparing that early is not necessary.

Workload permitting, I prefer to leave the prop(s) at it's cruise setting until I have reduced power on approach enough that you won't hear a change in RPM when I push the prop(s) full forward.

Even if you have to go-around prior to pushing the prop(s) full-forward, you can get a significant amount of power with the prop(s) in the cruise setting. Taking 3 seconds to smoothly reach full power, instead of 1, shouldn't cause a problem. The problem is with a pilot new to complex aircraft who might forget to push the prop(s) up if they weren't already there. If that's a threat, push them up earlier in the approach.

If all else fails, and you need full power immediately, open your hand and push all of the levers forward simultaneously.

 

[EdFred]

I'm surprised Sporty's hasn't tried hocking some go around device that pushes all levers/knobs forward at once.

 

[flyingron]

I suspect the confusion hear is what is meant by "when to do GUMPS." GUMPS isn't intended to be an indicator of when to do things. It's a confirmation when you are close to touchdown that essential steps have been completed. It's not uncommon for people to run GUMPS multiple time noting that there may be some of it deferred.

My prelanding checks call for the G prior to pattern entry/commencing the approach. Gear usually comes down on downwind (or the FAF on an instrument approach), Mixture and Prop shortly thereafter. Really the Mixture isn't so important as long as it goes in before you run the power in for the missed/go around.

Of course, GUMPS is a crutch. I have an inrange checklist that has other items. For example, on the Navion you must turn on the hydraulics before you want to use either the gear or flap levers.

 

[tspear]

@Larry in TN

Advocating for the happy path, and the most often case is a recipe for disaster. If the answer is the same, teaching the most agressive response as primary handles not just most cases but the edge cases as well, increases the odds for survival.

Also, when in a crisis situation, most humans quickly become task saturated, they do not rise to the occasion but sink to muscle memory, and tense muscles which is the opposite of relax your hand and spread it out to grab a fistful of levers.

So, next time in the pattern with a CS prop, consider how someone (not you) will answer the call to handle an aborted landing or pattern.

Tim

Sent from my HD1907 using Tapatalk

 

[steingar]

So you can **** off airport neighbors? Awesome. Way to be an Ambassador!

You fly full power in the landing pattern? I can't imagine how you slow that Comanche down to land.

My gear is down a few miles out from the airport, I like to get it down before I hit the traffic pattern and the potential distractions therein. Unlike @EdFred my gear speed is low, so I have to utilize a fairly low power setting to get the airplane down to gear speed. Once I get to the even lower flap speed I deploy the flaps (and lots of trim to bring the nose back up). I try and do my GUMPS check on downwind, which includes securing the prop full forward, which it should be anyway at a low power setting. Only thing that changes after that is the power setting itself, as I bleed off some more to come down and make my landing. Power comes off completely on short final once the landing is assured.

I try not to let essential functions wait until late in the landing pattern, since one can encounter all sorts of distractions.

 

[EdFred]

You fly full power in the landing pattern? I can't imagine how you slow that Comanche down to land.

Nope, but my prop doesn't come off the stops until well down on final. Throwing it full RPM on downwind is just an a-hole move.

 

[Larry in TN]

I suspect the confusion hear is what is meant by "when to do GUMPS." GUMPS isn't intended to be an indicator of when to do things. It's a confirmation when you are close to touchdown that essential steps have been completed.

Right. I even have a version of GUMPS in the 737. I check the flap indicator (both needles at the correct setting) and "five green" lights. Three for the gear, one for the leading-edge devices (slats and LE Flaps), and one for the spoilers armed. Typically, at least twice while on Final.

If the answer is the same, teaching the most agressive response as primary handles not just most cases but the edge cases as well, increases the odds for survival.

That's what I said. You initially teach to do it earlier for that reason. It reduces complexity in a busy phase of flight. As experience grows, the technique can be refined.

Also, when in a crisis situation, most humans quickly become task saturated
...
So, next time in the pattern with a CS prop, consider how someone (not you) will answer the call to handle an aborted landing or pattern.

If a go-around is a 'crisis situation', the pilot is not ready to be signed off. And certainly wouldn't be candidate to use more advanced techniques.

As far as how I handle go-arounds in a complex airplane, I brief the complete go-around procedure before the first landing of each duty day.

"In the event of a go-around, I'll press TOGA and say, 'going around, flaps 15, check thrust. Positive-rate, gear-up, set missed approach altitude.' At 400', TOGA-to-LNAV or 'Heading select', if we've been assigned a heading. At 800', 'Level change, set clean-maneuvering, Flaps 5. Flaps 1. Flaps Up. After-takeoff checklist".

By reciting this everyday it keeps it fresh and, when needed, it flows out smoothly and at a relaxed pace. I recommend a similar review for pilots regardless of what airplane they fly as it prevents a routine go-around from becoming a 'crisis situation'. BTW, we do the same thing with the engine-out procedure through cleanup before the first takeoff of each day.

 

[EdFred]

All y'all with these fancy automated take off go around buttons in your spam cans.

 

[luvflyin]

All y'all with these fancy automated take off go around buttons in your spam cans.

And all y’all with these fancy prop knobs and gear levers in yer hot rod airplanes. So there

 

[tspear]

And all y’all with these fancy prop knobs and gear levers in yer hot rod airplanes. So there

My plane is rally simple. Two levers only
But is is reasonably fast for a single engine piston. NA SR22 G1....

Tim

 

[steingar]

Nope, but my prop doesn't come off the stops until well down on final. Throwing it full RPM on downwind is just an a-hole move.

I doubt anyone goes full power on downwind. I can't imagine why you would, since you usually want to be slow. I consider it an idiot move to do your GUMPS check on final approach. If something distracts you or gets in the way you could very easily forget the GUMPS check altogether. Explains why so many wind up with the gear up. I don't give a crap what acronym comes after your name, stupid is as stupid does.

 

[OneCharlieTango]

Cessna 185: 20”/2300-2400 3 miles from downwind. Pull to 15” turning downwind. Abeam the numbers, pull MP back to 10”, prop all the way in, 2 notches of flaps. By the time that’s all done, I’m going 70 knots and ready to turn base.

 

[EdFred]

I doubt anyone goes full power on downwind. I can't imagine why you would, since you usually want to be slow. I consider it an idiot move to do your GUMPS check on final approach. If something distracts you or gets in the way you could very easily forget the GUMPS check altogether. Explains why so many wind up with the gear up. I don't give a crap what acronym comes after your name, stupid is as stupid does.

You're reading the words, but I don't think you are comprehending what is being written.

 

[Hiflyr1]

I doubt anyone goes full power on downwind. I can't imagine why you would, since you usually want to be slow. I consider it an idiot move to do your GUMPS check on final approach. If something distracts you or gets in the way you could very easily forget the GUMPS check altogether. Explains why so many wind up with the gear up. I don't give a crap what acronym comes after your name, stupid is as stupid does.

interesting take on things, I guess I am a idiot. I always do a GUMPS on anything I am flying at 500 ft but what do I know 8000+ hrs and currently Captain a 777 around the world. IMHO Flyingron got it right it’s not a do list; it’s a confirmation acronym.

 

[steingar]

interesting take on things, I guess I am a idiot. I always do a GUMPS on anything I am flying at 500 ft but what do I know 8000+ hrs and currently Captain a 777 around the world. IMHO Flyingron got it right it’s not a do list; it’s a confirmation acronym.

You have a copilot to assist. Most of us are by ourselves or with a potentially distracting passenger. Hence I try and get things done when I'm least likely to be distracted, and focus on the landing instead of to do lists when its time to land.

 

[IK04]

You're reading the words, but I don't think you are comprehending what is being written.

 

[Hiflyr1]

You have a copilot to assist. Most of us are by ourselves or with a potentially distracting passenger. Hence I try and get things done when I'm least likely to be distracted, and focus on the landing instead of to do lists when its time to land.

You misunderstand I fly many small aircraft warriors, Cessna 140, Cub,Cessna 177 etc in addition to my paying ride and do the same thing a GUMPS or modified GUMPS acronym at 500 every flight. It is not a do list but a verification list before landing.

 

[IK04]

Grumpy
Users
Must
Postulate
'n S**t

 

[sarangan]

interesting take on things, I guess I am a idiot. I always do a GUMPS on anything I am flying at 500 ft but what do I know 8000+ hrs and currently Captain a 777 around the world. IMHO Flyingron got it right it’s not a do list; it’s a confirmation acronym.

If it works, then don't mess with it. But I find acronyms to be arduous. Its a two-step process. First you need to expand the acronym into words, then you have to match those words to actions. GUMPS is easy enough, even though I still think of the first G as gear instead of gas. Then there is the 5T's, which I always disliked. Something about turning and twisting. Somehow I have managed to fly IFR for 20 years without knowing what those T's stand for.

 

[GMascelli]

If it works, then don't mess with it. But I find acronyms to be arduous. Its a two-step process. First you need to expand the acronym into words, then you have to match those words to actions. GUMPS is easy enough, even though I still think of the first G as gear instead of gas. Then there is the 5T's, which I always disliked. Something about turning and twisting. Somehow I have managed to fly IFR for 20 years without knowing what those T's stand for.

G for gas here and flow through before turning final on an approach or down wind VFR. Prop set for go around on short final , with a three green check at FAF (when I typically drop the gear) and then again on short final. My bride even confirms three green, which really cracks me up, but I appreciate her checking/confirming. One also can't miss the 60's style phone ring for no gear down....it's really loud.

 

[Witmo]

I do a GUMPS check at 302 feet but it's probably the fourth GUMPS check I've done on that particular approach. Annoying noise from the prop is primaily due to the tips getting close to mach so unless you've got a humongous prop and or you're using a high power setting, it ain't gonna be that loud. I do my first before landing checklist just before entering downwind and the prop will be fine pitch and the gear down.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

What I see here is one group that flys regularly advocating for a procedure that is safe, courteous and not hard at all for a proficient pilot. There is another group talking a lot that don’t understand they are building procedures into their flight routine because they fly infrequently and are not proficient.

One of the most important skills is to recognize what we don’t know. It’s funny watching the criticism from people that haven’t figured it out.

 

[tspear]

What I see here is one group that flys regularly advocating for a procedure that is safe, courteous and not hard at all for a proficient pilot. There is another group talking a lot that don’t understand they are building procedures into their flight routine because they fly infrequently and are not proficient.

One of the most important skills is to recognize what we don’t know. It’s funny watching the criticism from people that haven’t figured it out.

I fly regularly, I am proficient, there is nothing safe about props forward after you are in the pattern. Can it be done? Yes. Can it be safe? If you are a super pilot and nothing goes wrong.

I however believe it is better to plan that I am a below average pilot and use ADM to avoid such situations that depend upon a skill I may not have.

As pilots, we spend a lot of time planning for an emergency, and more occur in/around the pattern than anywhere else. Yet you have pilots advocating at reducing the safety margin when landing.

If you are that concerned about prop noise, go up 200ft in the pattern, it will do more to quite the plane than dropping the prop speed a couple hundred RPM.


Tim

Sent from my HD1907 using Tapatalk

 

[Tarheelpilot]

I fly regularly, I am proficient, there is nothing safe about props forward after you are in the pattern. Can it be done? Yes. Can it be safe? If you are a super pilot and nothing goes wrong.

I however believe it is better to plan that I am a below average pilot and use ADM to avoid such situations that depend upon a skill I may not have.

As pilots, we spend a lot of time planning for an emergency, and more occur in/around the pattern than anywhere else. Yet you have pilots advocating at reducing the safety margin when landing.

If you are that concerned about prop noise, go up 200ft in the pattern, it will do more to quite the plane than dropping the prop speed a couple hundred RPM.


Tim

Sent from my HD1907 using Tapatalk

Yep. I mean you just validated everything I said.



The first step in the balked landing procedure for the last complex I flew was “props … high rpm”
Application of power came second.

 

[EdFred]

I fly regularly, I am proficient, there is nothing safe about props forward after you are in the pattern. Can it be done? Yes. Can it be safe? If you are a super pilot and nothing goes wrong.

That might be the most erroneous statement I have seen all year. Either that or if you believe it to be true, your definition of proficient is VASTLY VASTLY different than, well, everyone's.

Pushing a blue knob forward 2" is unsafe within a mile of an airport? Good Lord.

 

[tspear]

That might be the most erroneous statement I have seen all year. Either that or if you believe it to be true, your definition of proficient is VASTLY VASTLY different than, well, everyone's.

Pushing a blue knob forward 2" is unsafe within a mile of an airport? Good Lord.

Nope. Just stating everything as an absolute which is the POA way.
The first point I was making was @Tarheelpilot stated there are absolutely only two groups. Those who are cool and know it, and those who fail to understand because they are not cool, oops I mean proficient (I could not resist).

My point is more broad in nature. You can either plan for the worst and prepare for it. Or you can depend on your skill to get you through such a situation, or luck that such a situation does not occur.
There are easier and better solutions to accomplish the desired noise reduction, all of which are safer.

Tim

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Nope. Just stating everything as an absolute which is the POA way.
The first point I was making was @Tarheelpilot stated there are absolutely only two groups. Those who are cool and know it, and those who fail to understand because they are not cool, oops I mean proficient (I could not resist).

My point is more broad in nature. You can either plan for the worst and prepare for it. Or you can depend on your skill to get you through such a situation, or luck that such a situation does not occur.
There are easier and better solutions to accomplish the desired noise reduction, all of which are safer.

Tim

I’m not cool. It’s not a measuring contest. You are wrong. There is nothing unsafe about not pushing props up until on the approach.

Your overall attitude towards safety of flight is great but inappropriately applied in this case.

You don’t agree that’s fine. No big deal.

 

[Doug Reid]

I fly an F35 Bonanza and a Cessna 195. On downwind, I reduce MAP to 15""...push prop control to high rpm setting. The prop being in high rpm setting helps me slow down, like down shifting in a sports car...very slight increase in noise...no where close to take off prop noise. Also sets up the prop for a go around if necessary. I cannot speak for all pilots and their airplanes, but I run GUMPS on downwind...usually again when I turn final. This is how I was taught to fly a complex airplane 35 years ago.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I just enjoy arguments about technique as though they were gospels.

 

[asicer]

My point is more broad in nature. You can either plan for the worst and prepare for it. Or you can depend on your skill to get you through such a situation, or luck that such a situation does not occur.
There are easier and better solutions to accomplish the desired noise reduction, all of which are safer.

Just out of curiosity, what's the concern?

Are you worried that on a go-around, the pilot will fail to recognize the difference between 2400RPM and 2700RPM? Or are you worried that the pilot is unable to take their hand off the throttle? Or is it that the few seconds it takes to push in the blue knob is critical?

 

[Troska]

There is nothing unsafe about not pushing props up until on the approach.

That seems like a debatable statement, but others are discussing that with you.

What I don't understand is the issue with pushing the prop lever up earlier? I've seen several comments about it being a problem, or the mark of a newbie.

When I'm on downwind between midfield and abeam the numbers, my prop goes full forward. I'm not fast enough or producing enough power for an increase in RPM - so what's wrong with doing it early? One less thing to fiddle with later, and you are prepped for the go around.

What is it about that practice that would make you say - hold on, don't do that until on final because you are missing...

Tim

 

[Tarheelpilot]

That seems like a debatable statement, but others are discussing that with you.

What I don't understand is the issue with pushing the prop lever up earlier? I've seen several comments about it being a problem, or the mark of a newbie.

When I'm on downwind between midfield and abeam the numbers, my prop goes full forward. I'm not fast enough or producing enough power for an increase in RPM - so what's wrong with doing it early? One less thing to fiddle with later, and you are prepped for the go around.

What is it about that practice that would make you say - hold on, don't do that until on final because you are missing...

Tim

You are not doing it early. You are doing it on the approach at an appropriate time.

 

[midlifeflyer]

If it works, then don't mess with it. But I find acronyms to be arduous. Its a two-step process. First you need to expand the acronym into words, then you have to match those words to actions. GUMPS is easy enough, even though I still think of the first G as gear instead of gas. Then there is the 5T's, which I always disliked. Something about turning and twisting. Somehow I have managed to fly IFR for 20 years without knowing what those T's stand for.

I'm no fan of mnemonics. Personally, I think the Ts and GUMP are the only two mnemonics worth anything at all. But like all of them, they tend to gain a life of their own and become more important than what they are supposed to represent.

I recently heard a story about a gear up landing told by a relatively well known instructor who had one some years ago. I chuckled at the story because my first impression was, it was caused by using a modified GUMP check. He was using the BCGUMPS variation at a towered airport and kept getting interrupted with a distraction before getting to "Undercarriage." Ended up forgetting it. Like you, "gear" in plain American English is the first item on my mental checklist.

I think the Ts are misunderstood. They are typically taught as a mental checklist of what to do when crossing a fix and people get into ridiculous arguments about whether "Time" or "Turn" comes first. If you are waiting until crossing a fix to think about what to do, you are already behind the airplane. To the extent I teach it at all, its usually to a rusty instrument pilot who already learned it, as a reminder of the things to consider well in advance of reaching any fix. It's just a temporary learning too for a question both IFR and VFR pilots should always be asking themselves. "What do I do next?"