Concerns 1969 C-150J

[Jack Cabano]

I want to buy it, so this is a part of my due diligence.

I have flown it twice or three times a month for the past 30 months, so I know it and still want to buy it. It's had two Annuals durring this time, nothing major. Log books go back to the 80s. The seller has the FAA CD from 69-.

It's VFR, minimally equipped, and LIGHT, but has everything that's required including -B. All the ADs are up to date. Arguably everything thats in there works. It's price reflects it's equipment and its time to TBO, C O-200, but the oil quality and compression are good.

Mission is "fun" and it has shown its ability to acomplish that mission.

Is there anything I should look for.

 

[Lachlan]

You should look for the online 150-152 club and join it. Buy it, fly it!

 

[Morgan3820]

Significant Corrosion. It will kill a plane and your flying dreams quickly.

 

[steingar]

Have a trustable A&P do a prebuy inspection. 150s are pretty durable little airplanes, not a lot to go wrong.

 

[Jack Cabano]

Have a trustable A&P do a prebuy inspection. 150s are pretty durable little airplanes, not a lot to go wrong.

I have seen parts of multiple annual inspections. (And wish I had watched one start to finish.) How does a typical pre-buy differ?

 

[Bell206]

Is there anything I should look for.

Do you plan to use the same APIA after you purchase it? If not, have the APIA that you will use to maintain your new aircraft look at the aircraft before you buy it. If so, ask him what he would bring to your attention on the 1st annual after you buy it.

 

[JAWS]

Cracks in floorplan, door post and main gear structure. Wrinkled firewall at nose gear attach points. Corrossion in the wings. Highly recommend the club. Lots of resources there. I see prices are on their way up.

 

[Dan Thomas]

Do you plan to use the same APIA after you purchase it? If not, have the APIA that you will use to maintain your new aircraft look at the aircraft before you buy it. If so, ask him what he would bring to your attention on the 1st annual after you buy it.

That there. "Annuals" and "ADs up to date" are just claims that might be valid, and they might be erroneous. I have done plenty of AD audits and found them way off, and found a lot of serious defects on airplanes "just annualled." As in any other industry or profession, there are some slackers and incompetents and cheaters.

The bulkhead at the aft end of the baggage compartment tends to crack at the top of the side frames, where it's riveted to the top frame. You have to take the plastic stuff out to see it, and most annuals don't get that level of care.

Look at the top of the rudder and see if the balance horn is wrinkled. Tailstrikes will do that. The big lead weight up top yanks down when the tail hits the runway.

The seat back angle cam shaft mounting tabs crack. Big people, or the pilot all wedged into that airplane before he realizes the keys are in his pocket. He leans back and breaks stuff.

So many AD lists show that AD 76-07-12 has been carried out annually, and then I find that the airplane doesn't have the Bendix ignition switch but an ACS switch and has had it since the airplane was new. There's a totally different AD on that one: 93-05-06. One has to crawl under that panel and use a flashlight to see what switch it is. Sometimes it IS a Bendix but has the white dot or a date code, meaning that the AD doesn't apply anyway. Details matter.

The flap mounting arms get worn. The flap rollers are Torrington needle bearings with thin steel sleeves pressed over them, and that sleeve works its way off the roller somewhat and its sharp edge cuts a circle into the flap arm, weakening it. If that little circle breaks out, the flap jams and it can get ugly, tearing loose the flap rails from the aft wing spar and wrinkling the flap. There's a Cessna SB on it. MacFarlane sells stuff to prevent it, but any existing damage needs repairing or new flap arms installed IAW the SB.

Then there's the usual overlooked stuff: periodic magneto internal inspections, alternator internal inspections, vacuum pump wear inspections or periodic replacement. Aging fuel hoses, aging fuel tank rubber bumpers and vent connector hoses. It's all on the Cessna inspection checklists in the manual.

A good prebuy is in order.

 

[Magman]

If the Horizontal Stabilizer creaks when shaking it an in depth inspection is

needed.

Poor ground handling techniques often damaged the attach structure .

I put in the Cessna beef-up kits and the last 2 feet of the fuselage many

years ago.

 

[Dan Thomas]

If the Horizontal Stabilizer creaks when shaking it an in depth inspection is

needed.

Poor ground handling techniques often damaged the attach structure .

I put in the Cessna beef-up kits and the last 2 feet of the fuselage many

years ago.

The 150's horizontal stabilizer front spar is just the skin folded; the top and bottom skins on each end of the stab are one piece, with the folded area being the spar. It's real easy to kink it, or to crush the inboard nose ribs, pushing down on the stab to turn the airplane on the ground. The aft stab spar is much heavier, since it's nearer the center of pressure.

 

[GeorgeC]

It's a simple plane, what could go wrong? Just kidding. Assume that anything rubber is 50 years old. Check gearboxes for cracks. Pull headliner and wingtips and look for corrosion. Does it have the rudder stop kit? If not, look at the bellcrank.

 

[Dan Thomas]

Does it have the rudder stop kit? If not, look at the bellcrank.

Anyone who doesn't install that kit is crazy, IMHO. And that brings up another point: the steering bungees get worn and soft and let the wind whack the rudder around if it's tied down outside. That beats up the hinges, the bellcrank and stops, and can crack the bottom rudder rib. And it wears the cables and pulleys and rudder bar springs and their tabs and.....

 

[Jack Cabano]

You should look for the online 150-152 club and join it. Buy it, fly it!

Thank you... Did... In process... have many times.

 

[Jack Cabano]

That there. "Annuals" and "ADs up to date" are just claims that might be valid, and they might be erroneous. I have done plenty of AD audits and found them way off, and found a lot of serious defects on airplanes "just annualled." As in any other industry or profession, there are some slackers and incompetents and cheaters.

The bulkhead at the aft end of the baggage compartment tends to crack at the top of the side frames, where it's riveted to the top frame. You have to take the plastic stuff out to see it, and most annuals don't get that level of care.

Look at the top of the rudder and see if the balance horn is wrinkled. Tailstrikes will do that. The big lead weight up top yanks down when the tail hits the runway.

The seat back angle cam shaft mounting tabs crack. Big people, or the pilot all wedged into that airplane before he realizes the keys are in his pocket. He leans back and breaks stuff.

So many AD lists show that AD 76-07-12 has been carried out annually, and then I find that the airplane doesn't have the Bendix ignition switch but an ACS switch and has had it since the airplane was new. There's a totally different AD on that one: 93-05-06. One has to crawl under that panel and use a flashlight to see what switch it is. Sometimes it IS a Bendix but has the white dot or a date code, meaning that the AD doesn't apply anyway. Details matter.

The flap mounting arms get worn. The flap rollers are Torrington needle bearings with thin steel sleeves pressed over them, and that sleeve works its way off the roller somewhat and its sharp edge cuts a circle into the flap arm, weakening it. If that little circle breaks out, the flap jams and it can get ugly, tearing loose the flap rails from the aft wing spar and wrinkling the flap. There's a Cessna SB on it. MacFarlane sells stuff to prevent it, but any existing damage needs repairing or new flap arms installed IAW the SB.

Then there's the usual overlooked stuff: periodic magneto internal inspections, alternator internal inspections, vacuum pump wear inspections or periodic replacement. Aging fuel hoses, aging fuel tank rubber bumpers and vent connector hoses. It's all on the Cessna inspection checklists in the manual.

A good prebuy is in order.

Thank you for such a thorough reply.

 

[Jack Cabano]

It's a simple plane, what could go wrong?

Cool... Apparently I was just overthinkung it... I mean it's been flying for 50 years, It's gotta be good for 50 more.

 

[Lachlan]

Anyone who doesn't install that kit is crazy, IMHO. And that brings up another point: the steering bungees get worn and soft and let the wind whack the rudder around if it's tied down outside. That beats up the hinges, the bellcrank and stops, and can crack the bottom rudder rib. And it wears the cables and pulleys and rudder bar springs and their tabs and.....

Rudder lock.

 

[Lachlan]

Thank you... Did... In process... have many times.

Congrats on your purchase!

 

[Jack Cabano]

Stupid question, my eyes were blurry from reading decades of log book entries. Heck I even originally posted this in another thread. Ooops...

AC-39D dated 3/2/12 says: "the person accomplishing the AD is required to record compliance..."

On "my" 150J many of the ADs pertain to STCs, and the only STC the aircraft has is for Mogas. Additionally many pertain to parts that may or may not be on a particular aircraft. Such as a part with a specific Cessna Part Number bracket with a particular date code.

Can any person who knows that an aircraft has no STCs, (well actually since an STC requires a 337 and 337s must be filed OKC already knows the a/c doesn't have that STC but I digress) or checks that a specified bracket, seat belt buckle, oil filter assembly, or air filter is not installed sign off on the AD?

I am specifically talking about ADs that pertain only to items that are on some but not other aircraft in an affected serial number range. And only where the affected part is NOT on the aircraft.

The AC seems clear that the owner can sign off on ADs that can be addressed as maintenance items by the owner, IE torque value and non-leakyness of a spin on oil filter. And items that require an A&P to replace a part, IE a jackscrew, must be signed off by the A&P who performed the work.

 

[Silvaire]

...Can any person who knows that an aircraft has no STCs, (well actually since an STC requires a 337 and 337s must be filed OKC already knows the a/c doesn't have that STC but I digress) or checks that a specified bracket, seat belt buckle, oil filter assembly, or air filter is not installed sign off on the AD?

If the AD doesn't apply then there is nothing to "sign off" but if you want to write something in the logbook it's your book so have at it.

 

[Bell206]

Can any person [...] sign off on the AD?

the owner can sign off on ADs

No. Unless the AD applicability statement specifically allows a pilot or owner to accomplish the AD an AP must sign off the AD.

And only where the affected part is NOT on the aircraft.

As mentioned above, only those ADs that are specifically applicable to your aircraft require a mx record entry and sign off. The others do not.

FYI: each annual inspection your APIA is required to check AD listing and ensure compliance. So if you choose to update your AD list best to coordinate with your APIA to prevent any miscommunication/duplicate work. AD Log is a good system that simplifies your APIAs requirements and your (owner) Part 91 requirements.

 

[Jack Cabano]

Thank you

I was confused because a prior owner created an AD file with copies of the 26 ADs that had been issued on the model up to the time he sold it. BUT over half were not addressed at all in the log books (because they pertained to STCs, particular non OEM parts, or optional equipment not associated with the individual aircraft.

Two items that did not pertain were signed off in the log-- presumably by the owner, it's illegible-- with something akin to "pursuant to AD 96-09-06 item not installed on a/c."

The A&P-- who has done the past seven annuals-- says that all is well. But I just wanted to be certain.

 

[Boundary Waters]

No. Unless the AD applicability statement specifically allows a pilot or owner to accomplish the AD an AP must sign off the AD.

I'm new, the regs have been written piecemeal in response to pressure from real world issues, and they are not enforced evenly, and I'm not saying you are wrong, just trying to learn...

If an owner can do preventive maintenance. Which regulations say she can. In fact 14.CFR.43, AC-20-105, and the 3/4 2010 Safety Bulletin specifically list what maintenance items an owner can and cannot perform. Then if an AD can be resolved by performing a permissible maintenance item, for example replacing a tire, an air filter, or the like AND given that (quoting from above: AC-39D dated 3/2/12 says: "the person accomplishing the AD is required to record compliance...") should a person permitted to resolve the AD through a permissible maintenance procedure sign same into the log? (Perhaps with the A&P contersigning at the next annual that "X" was not on the aircraft?)

EDIT: Perhaps this is a "new" thing as only the "new" ADs have applicability statements. I have a 12 page AD saying "If you got a nylon lock nut on your throttle linkage replace it with a drilled bolt, castle nut and kotter pin." Seriously-- that's it.

 

[Dan Thomas]

I preferred to address all ADs, and mark the not-applicable ones as "N/A-no affected parts installed" or some such thing. That way, the next mechanic or owner was notified that someone had actually looked.

But I did find some that did indeed apply after someone else had signed them off as N/A, because they just hadn't looked at the stuff properly.

There are also appliance ADs that are often overlooked. Things like wheels, brakes, instruments, seat belts, vacuum pumps, magnetos and so on. Stuff that isn't OEM-specific. That takes some digging, expedited by experience as to what to check. One in a while I'd find a United Instruments altimeter to which one of several ADs applied, for instance.

 

[Bell206]

I'm new,

Not no more after the Luscombe and empty weight posts.

owner can do preventive maintenance.

Yes, provided the owner is a certified pilot.

Then if an AD can be resolved by performing a permissible [preventative] maintenance item,

Moot point. ADs and preventative maintenance fall under separate rules. ADs are actually revisions to Part 39 and similar to other regulations each AD has their own applicability requirements. If the AD applicability allows a pilot or owner to perform the work then you as a pilot/owner can perform the stated maintenance. Otherwise no per that Part 39 regulation.

(Perhaps with the A&P contersigning at the next annual that "X" was not on the aircraft?)

Except working under the supervision of an AP, i.e., which requires his signature for the work, is another separate rule under Part 43.3. Can it include performing ADs, yes. But the the signing AP is still following Part 39 rules.

Perhaps this is a "new" thing as only the "new" ADs have applicability statements.

Not that I've seen. The AD format have changed but the applicability statements have always been there in my experience.

I have a 12 page AD saying "If you got a nylon lock nut on your throttle linkage replace it with a drilled bolt, castle nut and kotter pin."

If you can post it. I suspect you have a database version and not the text of the original AD.

 

[Magman]

“ c/w” or “p/c/w” is not acceptable in my book.

Method of compliance and traceable to a signature SOMEWHERE is needed.

Believing a recurrent inspection is a terminating action is dangerous.

Two cases in point:

Original Cherokee Oil Hose AD resulted in engine failure and injuries for that reason.

Assuring correct interpretation resulted in finding 6 of 7 strands (not wires)

of an Ercoupe control cable broken.

 

[Silvaire]

When I inspect an airplane for the first time I create an AD compliance sheet divided into sections for Airframe, Engine, Propeller and Appliances that will list all of the AD's that come up in an unfiltered search. One line for each AD with columns for AD Number, Date of Issue, Description, Status (either N/A or type/method of compliance), Reference, Date of compliance, Mechanic, Recurring (Y/N) and Next Due. The Reference column can be used to indicate the specific paragraph and sub-paragraph of the AD that was used for compliance or that shows non-applicability and a subsequent inspector can use the Date of compliance to locate the entry in the logbook and read the original sign off. As Dan mentioned, if the aircraft is new to you you'll need to verify the entries and verify that the N/A's are correct or that the STC is not installed.

 

[Jack Cabano]

When I inspect an airplane for the first time I create an AD compliance sheet divided into sections for Airframe, Engine, Propeller and Appliances that will list all of the AD's that come up in an unfiltered search. One line for each AD with columns for AD Number, Date of Issue, Description, Status (either N/A or type/method of compliance), Reference, Date of compliance, Mechanic, Recurring (Y/N) and Next Due. The Reference column can be used to indicate the specific paragraph and sub-paragraph of the AD that was used for compliance or that shows non-applicability and a subsequent inspector can use the Date of compliance to locate the entry in the logbook and read the original sign off. As Dan mentioned, if the aircraft is new to you you'll need to verify the entries and verify that the N/A's are correct or that the STC is not installed.

The owner before the guy I'm buying the airplane from did this except he did not differentiate, AF, PP, prop, and other. Instead he did "Cessna" and "not Cessna" (which would include all three of your other categories).

Only 29 ADs over 53 years, and 14 are immediately dismissable as they pertained to STCs, or to name brand non Cessna items not installed (eg: Acme Products 50 lb Anvil). 11 of the remainder were resolved by replacing specific parts (some of those ADs permitted use to a certain number of hours providing periodic inspections were undertaken, but that happened long ago). Two have continuing periodic inspection requirements, and two mandate specific procedures at specific intervals.

 

[Jack Cabano]

The AD format have changed but the applicability statements have always been there in my experience.

If you can post it. I suspect you have a database version and not the text of the original AD.

The ACTUAL AD on each of the items pertinent to my aircraft is not over two pages. Most are one. BUT each one online now contains pages of crap which in many cases have been retroactively appended to the AD. (Paperwork reduction act, cost benefit analysis, public comments, non-discriminaton statements, yada yada...)

On the older ADSs these were clearly added later as they pertained to legislation or regulations passed after the AD was issued. This is likely the "institutional dishonesty" referred to.

 

[pfarber]

That there. "Annuals" and "ADs up to date" are just claims that might be valid, and they might be erroneous. I have done plenty of AD audits and found them way off, and found a lot of serious defects on airplanes "just annualled." As in any other industry or profession, there are some slackers and incompetents and cheaters.

The bulkhead at the aft end of the baggage compartment tends to crack at the top of the side frames, where it's riveted to the top frame. You have to take the plastic stuff out to see it, and most annuals don't get that level of care.

Look at the top of the rudder and see if the balance horn is wrinkled. Tailstrikes will do that. The big lead weight up top yanks down when the tail hits the runway.

The seat back angle cam shaft mounting tabs crack. Big people, or the pilot all wedged into that airplane before he realizes the keys are in his pocket. He leans back and breaks stuff.

So many AD lists show that AD 76-07-12 has been carried out annually, and then I find that the airplane doesn't have the Bendix ignition switch but an ACS switch and has had it since the airplane was new. There's a totally different AD on that one: 93-05-06. One has to crawl under that panel and use a flashlight to see what switch it is. Sometimes it IS a Bendix but has the white dot or a date code, meaning that the AD doesn't apply anyway. Details matter.

The flap mounting arms get worn. The flap rollers are Torrington needle bearings with thin steel sleeves pressed over them, and that sleeve works its way off the roller somewhat and its sharp edge cuts a circle into the flap arm, weakening it. If that little circle breaks out, the flap jams and it can get ugly, tearing loose the flap rails from the aft wing spar and wrinkling the flap. There's a Cessna SB on it. MacFarlane sells stuff to prevent it, but any existing damage needs repairing or new flap arms installed IAW the SB.

Then there's the usual overlooked stuff: periodic magneto internal inspections, alternator internal inspections, vacuum pump wear inspections or periodic replacement. Aging fuel hoses, aging fuel tank rubber bumpers and vent connector hoses. It's all on the Cessna inspection checklists in the manual.

A good prebuy is in order.

You forgot the exhaust inspection. Its a 100 hour item.

 

[Bell206]

The ACTUAL AD on each of the items pertinent to my aircraft is not over two pages. Most are one.

which in many cases have been retroactively appended to the AD.

FYI: The actual AD is still 1 to 2 pages long in most cases. Its my understanding a law was revised either via the APA or something similar that required publicly accessible federal regulations documents to contain more included background information that was previously listed separately. Since an AD is a new regulation it got caught up in that law. If you scroll through the background info you'll get to the actual AD header like the one below. It's the only thing I look for.

 

[Dan Thomas]

You forgot the exhaust inspection. Its a 100 hour item.

Now, unless the US has a blanket AD similar to Canada's that applies to all aircraft using the exhaust system as a source of cabin heat, maybe you could tell me which one you are referring to? There are only two exhaust system ADs applicable to the 150J, and they're both pretty old and the affected mufflers should be long gone in most airplanes.

 

[Silvaire]

FYI: The actual AD is still 1 to 2 pages long in most cases...

Yea these things used to be printed on Microfiche or paper and every month you had to toss out some of the old fiche or pages and put in the new ones. But now it's all digital so no problem them including the prelim arguments and history, just more info if you are interested but easy to scroll past to the AD header. They also have a more consistent format now, not perfect but a bit better than some of the old ones that sometimes got amended frequently and made me toss out a perfectly good Microfiche that I hadn't even ever used yet.

 

[Magman]

I didn’t stay at the Holiday Inn Express.

But I do have my copies of Form 8320-3.

My actions are somewhat similar to Silvaire’s in #26.

In addition; I use a separate sheet for “ Recurrent” compliance.

Makes it easy for anyone to find “ next action required” as it’s all on

one easily duplicated sheet.

I hate to have to lecture folks about ADs that were overflown and

discovered at Annual.

The Aircraft Records only have to reflect the CURRENT status of ADs.

Superceded records of ADs can be tossed.

“Volunteering” the information in your logbook to the feds that you went 150 hrs

between compliance actions on an AD with 100 hr intervals is not a wise move.

If you overfly the AD you can re-write the “ Recurrent “ sheet and toss the

superceded one with the evidence.

And then all is well.

 

[Kenny Phillips]

Cool... Apparently I was just overthinkung it... I mean it's been flying for 50 years, It's gotta be good for 50 more.

True for the B-52, at least ...

 

[Dan Thomas]

Cool... Apparently I was just overthinkung it... I mean it's been flying for 50 years, It's gotta be good for 50 more.

I wish that philosophy (it's not science) applied to my 2006 Hyundai Sonata and 2007 Ford Ranger. Neither of them will last another 15 years without extensive restoration. Airplanes and cars rot whether they're being used or not. I have too much time working on old airplanes for a living to know that the past 50 years take a terrible toll, and that if insufficient money and time hasn't been spent on them, you can be in trouble.

 

[Jack Cabano]

I wish that philosophy (it's not science) applied to my 2006 Hyundai Sonata and 2007 Ford Ranger. Neither of them will last another 15 years without extensive restoration. Airplanes and cars rot whether they're being used or not. I have too much time working on old airplanes for a living to know that the past 50 years take a terrible toll, and that if insufficient money and time hasn't been spent on them, you can be in trouble.

I should see if I can find out what was paid for "my" airplane new. I'm sure it has benefited from several times that many dollars in maintenance over the years, even with inflation dropped out of the equation.

The people I know tend to run automobiles until a major failure, perhaps changing the oil, perhaps not. Not such a good plan when you can't just pull over on the next cloud.

PS: Yesterday I learned how to remove all the plastic interior panels...

Someday, I'll figure out how to put them back...

 

[Magman]

You can reinstall the interior on a ‘ 69?

Isn’t that like trying to reassemble potato chips?

 

[Jack Cabano]

You can reinstall the interior on a ‘ 69?

Isn’t that like trying to reassemble potato chips?

Pretty much.

You just need a big roll of duct tape...

Looking at the McFarlane website...

 

[Dan Thomas]

Pretty much.

You just need a big roll of duct tape...

Looking at the McFarlane website...

Vantage Plane Plastics. https://vantageassoc.com/airplane/cessnasingle/150/1969150j15069309thru15071128.html

If the panels are just cracked but not crumbling, you can repair them by patching the backside using fiberglass cloth and ABS solvent cement, the smelly yellow goop used on ABS household drain pipes. Those panels are made of ABS, and the cement fuses to them nicely. Wipe them clean with a bit of MEK first (the same stuff that's in the ABS cleaner/primer, but at about a tenth of the price). Cut the fiberglass so that the weave will lay diagonally across the crack, making all the fibers work for you, and when cut diagonally it will conform to compound curves, too. Brush some cement on the plastic, lay the patch in it, and brush a bit more on it. Add another layer of glass if more rigidity is needed. It helps to put some tape on the outer face of the crack, to pull the crack together and to stop cement from bleeding through and making a mess on the outer face. Pull the tape off after the goop sets.

Duct tape will let the stuff shift around and it will dry out and fall off anyway.

 

[Jack Cabano]

Vantage Plane Plastics. https://vantageassoc.com/airplane/cessnasingle/150/1969150j15069309thru15071128.html

If the panels are just cracked but not crumbling, you can repair them by patching the backside using fiberglass cloth and ABS solvent cement, the smelly yellow goop used on ABS household drain pipes. Those panels are made of ABS, and the cement fuses to them nicely. Wipe them clean with a bit of MEK first (the same stuff that's in the ABS cleaner/primer, but at about a tenth of the price). Cut the fiberglass so that the weave will lay diagonally across the crack, making all the fibers work for you, and when cut diagonally it will conform to compound curves, too. Brush some cement on the plastic, lay the patch in it, and brush a bit more on it. Add another layer of glass if more rigidity is needed. It helps to put some tape on the outer face of the crack, to pull the crack together and to stop cement from bleeding through and making a mess on the outer face. Pull the tape off after the goop sets.

Duct tape will let the stuff shift around and it will dry out and fall off anyway.

Thanks for the link.

Getting it pretty isn't the top priority, but I figure a piece here and there now and again will improve the looks without too much disruption. It's not horrible considering it's age. We'll see what is repairable and what isn't, a couple panels are equal part tape and plastic. No mice or corrosion under the plastic though, so I'm happy (even if I can't get one door panel back on, really...)