Complex / HP endorsements - Recommendations?

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HouTxPilot82

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HouTxPilot82
Just hit my 2 year mark since PPL and did my BFR. I've always wanted to get the HP and complex endorsements as well, but lack of time and funds is the main reason it hasn't happened yet. Where I rent, here are the rates (I live in Houston):

160HP Cessna 172N - $125/hr wet
180HP Cessna 172S/SP - $154/hr wet

Those are the 2 models I've got most of my 115 hours in. They don't have anything that can be used to combine Complex and HP. They do have:

For HP : Cessna 182T - $212/hr wet
For Complex: Piper 28r - $154/hr wet

I know in other parts of the country there are better rental rates than these. I've long toyed with the idea of taking a few days off to plan a vacation some place that has a flight school with aircraft that can allow for combining this training. Would be nice to spend some of my vacation knocking out the training, and the rest enjoying the local area. I've got several vacation days to burn this year (or lose them after year end) and wanted to see if anyone can recommend a place I should look at. About a year ago I found a flight school in Bentonville/Fayetteville Arkansas area (I think it was Summit aviation) that seemed to have packages for this kind of combined training. Their site shows no mention of those offerings anymore.

I'm most likely to rent the PA28's more often here since they rent for about the same as the 172SP and cruise a bit faster, and no daily minimums. I would only need the payload capacity of the 182 on rare occasions.

If you have personal experience doing combined training someplace that has good CFIs and decent rental rates, please let me know! Thanks!
 
Of those choices get the Complex and rent the Arrow.

Endorsements come easy while you do your checkouts for the operator (and their insurance).
 
You may not get the HP endorsement with the Arrow as many (most?) have a 200HP engine and don't meet the FAR requirement of "...an engine more than 200HP."

Also note, complex isn't a 1-2 lesson deal for most people. I got my endorsement in a PA-28RT in about 4 hours, and went with an instructor a few more times to really work out the landings. I found the t-tail a hard transition.
 
PaulMKE said:
You may not get the HP endorsement with the Arrow as many (most?) have a 200HP engine and don't meet the FAR requirement of "...an engine more than 200HP."

Also note, complex isn't a 1-2 lesson deal for most people. I got my endorsement in a PA-28RT in about 4 hours, and went with an instructor a few more times to really work out the landings. I found the t-tail a hard transition.
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Right - I won't get HP it in the Arrows available at my local flight school. I think the one I had seen out there was a 182 RG which would allow me to combine both, but there may be other options I'm unaware of. I expected somewhere between 5 and 10 hours of flight time to do the combined in such an aircraft. As opposed to a minimum of 10 (minimum 5 each aircraft) at my local place.
 
Sounds like a good plan if you can combine!
 
I'd go for the arrow, it would be nice to be checked out in that, much nicer X/C machine compared to the other options, also you'll learn more.
 
I'd do whichever you're more likely to fly. A HP endorsement should be little more than a checkout flight. Either way, make sure the flight is signed off as a flight review, assuming you log the hour of ground and required topics.
 
I did my HP endorsement on a Cherokee Six I think. It was pretty much a "more left rudder" endorsement.
 
After several years flying my Mooney, I got the HP endorsement in a 182. It was a sleeper at night after work, except for the alternator failure and return to land with partial flaps, no lights and no radio. But the green light from the tower was clearly visible, and a cool experience! :cool:
 
mtuomi said:
Hhaha! Busted :) Next time I'll engage brain before opening mouth :)
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No biggie. There's some oddballs out there that the prop goes the other way...

One of the "Best CFI quotes" from a Reddit thread is:

"If you don't put in more right rudder like you know you need to do, I'm going to get out the fire extinguisher and beat you with it."

:)
 
I would do the Complex/Arrow first, it's cheaper and will go just as fast as the 182. Get some experience in it, then the HP/182 will be a piece of cake.
 
PaulMKE said:
You may not get the HP endorsement with the Arrow as many (most?) have a 200HP engine and don't meet the FAR requirement of "...an engine more than 200HP."

Also note, complex isn't a 1-2 lesson deal for most people. I got my endorsement in a PA-28RT in about 4 hours, and went with an instructor a few more times to really work out the landings. I found the t-tail a hard transition.
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Thats an airframe problem not necessarily a complex problem. Had you not been in a T-tail it wouldn't be much different than other cherokees
 
Thanks for the input everyone - I'm in agreement that if I WERE going to do the training at my local field, it would make more sense for me to do it in the Arrow, rather than the 182.

However, my original question was not about which of the 2 I should choose here locally. I've seen it posted many times on this forum that people combine this training... so what I'm really wanting to get information on is where have they done it, so I can make a trip out of it - knock out both endorsements and see a new place at the same time. I didn't know of a quick way to search for flight schools across the various states to see who offers this and at what rates, which is why I'm asking here.

I only provided the info on local rates as a reference to what I expect to pay here so I can get recommendations on cheaper places.
 
Maybe you're missing the advice your being given.

Don't just go get endorsements for the sake of being endorsed.

Anybody who rents is going to make you do their checkout anyway, so getting the endorsement from the checker saves money in the long run.

Heck, you could go find a complex, HP, tailwheel and get THREE endorsements at once, but when you get home you'll be doing checkouts for the Operator with no time in the plane(s) available.
 
I thought I read somewhere where the FAA is going to change the definition of 'complex' to include fixed gear aircraft if they have a glass panel set up. I tried real fast to find where I read that but couldn't. Decided in Internet forum fashion to just throw that information out there with no backup material or sources.....
 
rolivi said:
Maybe you're missing the advice your being given.

Don't just go get endorsements for the sake of being endorsed.

Anybody who rents is going to make you do their checkout anyway, so getting the endorsement from the checker saves money in the long run.

Heck, you could go find a complex, HP, tailwheel and get THREE endorsements at once, but when you get home you'll be doing checkouts for the Operator with no time in the plane(s) available.
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I recognize and appreciate the fact that I will have to do a local checkout here for when I want to rent - that checkout typically only consists of about an hour in the plane assuming i'm appropriately rated and endorsed otherwise. Given that I've seen people post rates on this forum MUCH lower than what I pay locally, I wanted to find out the places where those rates are. So it's not just about getting endorsements for the sake of it - it's more about getting them for lower total cost - I suspect even with an additional hour of checkout here I'll still end up paying less by training elsewhere.
 
HouTxPilot82 said:
I recognize and appreciate the fact that I will have to do a local checkout here for when I want to rent - that checkout typically only consists of about an hour in the plane assuming i'm appropriately rated and endorsed otherwise. Given that I've seen people post rates on this forum MUCH lower than what I pay locally, I wanted to find out the places where those rates are. So it's not just about getting endorsements for the sake of it - it's more about getting them for lower total cost - I suspect even with an additional hour of checkout here I'll still end up paying less by training elsewhere.
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Even so, usually a school with a complex will require something like 25 hours in type or 5 hours in that plane with their instructor. So if you go and knock everything out in a 182RG, you may still need another 5 hours with an instructor for a checkout.

Bottom line, check the checkout requirements of the local schools for the complex/hp planes and make a better informed decision.
 
HouTxPilot82 said:
I recognize and appreciate the fact that I will have to do a local checkout here for when I want to rent - that checkout typically only consists of about an hour in the plane assuming i'm appropriately rated and endorsed otherwise. Given that I've seen people post rates on this forum MUCH lower than what I pay locally, I wanted to find out the places where those rates are. So it's not just about getting endorsements for the sake of it - it's more about getting them for lower total cost - I suspect even with an additional hour of checkout here I'll still end up paying less by training elsewhere.
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I don't get it. You are saying that your local flight school will withhold your endorsement until you have 5 hours, but will rent the airplane to anyone endorsed with just one checkout flight? Are you sure you understand their rules correctly? That seems completely backward from the way everyone else does it. Normally you need X hours time in type to rent the airplane regardless of whether you're endorsed or not, and the CFI gives you the endorsement when you are ready for it, whether it's 1 hour or 10 hours.
 
dmspilot said:
I don't get it. You are saying that your local flight school will withhold your endorsement until you have 5 hours, but will rent the airplane to anyone endorsed with just one checkout flight? Are you sure you understand their rules correctly? That seems completely backward from the way everyone else does it. Normally you need X hours time in type to rent the airplane regardless of whether you're endorsed or not, and the CFI gives you the endorsement when you are ready for it, whether it's 1 hour or 10 hours.
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I'll double check the rules with them on my next visit.

I wasn't suggesting they would withhold either endorsement until x hours - the CFI did say each endorsement is actually given based on however long it takes you to be ready for it, just as it should be. The checkout minimums are what I have to double check on as you suggested - as I was last told, it's not so much 'time in type' as it is minimum overall hours and minimum hours for either complex or minim hours for HP (5 each) + the appropriate checkout for that type.

Thanks all.
 
I started my HP/Complex endorsement this week. Did about an hour on the ground with the instructor in the airplane and then (so far) 1.6 in the air. It's in a 182RG. It was a humbling experience and I will gladly pay for a couple of more hours with the CFI. My problem was mostly just the 40 degree landing. I think I did the worst landing in my entire fixed wing career (70 hours). Not an unsafe landing but definitely not pleasant. The Manifold pressure, cowl flaps, (and for me, carb heat which I have not used since I trained in a 172SP) were not too bad and I think I'll have that stuff nailed pretty quick. Rates where I am are $175/hr wet for the 182RG. It's a fast aircraft as well. Traffic pattern stuff happens pretty quick and you need to really be ahead of the plane mentally. GUMPS is your friend.
 
armycopter said:
I started my HP/Complex endorsement this week. Did about an hour on the ground with the instructor in the airplane and then (so far) 1.6 in the air. It's in a 182RG. It was a humbling experience and I will gladly pay for a couple of more hours with the CFI. My problem was mostly just the 40 degree landing. I think I did the worst landing in my entire fixed wing career (70 hours). Not an unsafe landing but definitely not pleasant. The Manifold pressure, cowl flaps, (and for me, carb heat which I have not used since I trained in a 172SP) were not too bad and I think I'll have that stuff nailed pretty quick. Rates where I am are $175/hr wet for the 182RG. It's a fast aircraft as well. Traffic pattern stuff happens pretty quick and you need to really be ahead of the plane mentally. GUMPS is your friend.
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You don't have to fly it that fast in the pattern. Just remove power at the top of the climb to pattern altitude instead of waiting until time to descend, and it won't accelerate in the downwind.

It'll happily fly the pattern as slow as any Skyhawk. Can even toss out Flaps 10 if you're worried about it.

Slow up in the pattern anyway if you feel like you're behind the airplane and give yourself some more time. Can always speed up later. :)

Flaps 40 landings are a new experience for many. Power off, it results in a steep glide path that's totally stable but steeper than most folks are used to seeing. Power-on? Well, put it wherever you want it but nail the airspeed and keep it slow-ish and it'll fly along with all that drag. You're just "dragging it in". That's the "airliner style" approach in a 182RG. Have to memorize the MP number that'll give you the airspeed and descent rate you want and just set it there at first and see what you get. If you chase it, airspeed be all over the place.
 
Bah, fly a fast downwind (cruise speed or better), decel turn downwind to final, vle, vfe, roll out into a slip as you are dropping the last bit of flaps, cross the fence at vref, straighten her out a foot off the deck and touchdown as smooth as a baby's butt, make the first taxiway.
 
I did mine in a Debonair. Two birds with one stone.
 
Theboys said:
It's amazing when you get used to decending into the pattern at around 200 kts that you can get it slowed down to plop down speeds in the pattern.
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Works like a charm in you're going into bigger airports and you need to keep the speed up. I've been to most Class B airports in the NE in an SR22 and controllers are always appreciative when I can give them 170 until a 1 mile final.
 
James331 said:
Bah, fly a fast downwind (cruise speed or better), decel turn downwind to final, vle, vfe, roll out into a slip as you are dropping the last bit of flaps, cross the fence at vref, straighten her out a foot off the deck and touchdown as smooth as a baby's butt, make the first taxiway.
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Well one can certainly do that eventually, but he's transitioning. No point in blasting around at full throttle if he's feeling behind the airplane. It'll fly whatever speed he wants.
 
The HP/Complex sign off is a feel good endorsement. Really, why would anyone do this unless they actually plan on buying or renting the plane?

I went to a few schools while I was shopping for my Lance. They all gave me the "are you retarded" look.
 
Unit74 said:
The HP/Complex sign off is a feel good endorsement. Really, why would anyone do this unless they actually plan on buying or renting the plane?

I went to a few schools while I was shopping for my Lance. They all gave me the "are you retarded" look.
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Because you wanted a Lance? ;)

(Ducking...)
 
denverpilot said:
Because you wanted a Lance? ;)

(Ducking...)
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Yes. Told them I was looking to by a PA32. One shop, who does a lot of single pilot parts runs in a Bo took my number and said he could put me on board when they ran to MEM or DFW for free as the pilots would love company. They were a big jet service center and a few hundred dollar run for parts was just tacked on to the bill.

Also offered multi-time for free but between work not letting me off and then getting promoted, picking up my Lance a month later, it fell off and I never went with them. The HP complex sign off was about 30 min ground and an hour in the air. Felt more like a PA32 familiarization flight though than a complex HP lesson.
 
dmspilot said:
I don't get it. You are saying that your local flight school will withhold your endorsement until you have 5 hours, but will rent the airplane to anyone endorsed with just one checkout flight? Are you sure you understand their rules correctly? That seems completely backward from the way everyone else does it. Normally you need X hours time in type to rent the airplane regardless of whether you're endorsed or not, and the CFI gives you the endorsement when you are ready for it, whether it's 1 hour or 10 hours.
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The places I've rented complex from either required 25-50 hours complex total time, or 5 hours in make/model before being able to take the aircraft without an instructor. If you dont have the complex total, then its a minimum of 5 make and model. If you dont have 5 hours make and model, you are going to get it from their instructor in their plane if you want to rent it.
 
the cost and hours of training goes down drastically proportional to the amount of chair flying you do.

no BS my multi engine instructor said he would be willing to send me up with 3 hours of ME time. I was like no way. I went for my check ride at 6 point something or other hours. Point being, not to brag but that I studied my arse off, chair flew like crazy and it made it easy as pie.
 
High performance endorsement in a 182t took 4 hours (I travelled somewhere to get this and the instructor was an idiot in a bureaucratic environment)
Complex in a 172rg took about 1.5 hours
Transisition in a v35. 1 hour flight.

If I were you I would get the complex rating as part of hopefully an extended checkout. As long as the place isn't too bureaucratic you'll knock it out in one session.
Arrow is a great plane. If given the opportunity to rent an arrow or a 182t for a cross country, I would take the arrow even at the same price. The 182t gets a premium because it is newer.
 
HouTxPilot82 said:
Just hit my 2 year mark since PPL and did my BFR. I've always wanted to get the HP and complex endorsements as well, but lack of time and funds is the main reason it hasn't happened yet. Where I rent, here are the rates (I live in Houston):

160HP Cessna 172N - $125/hr wet
180HP Cessna 172S/SP - $154/hr wet

Those are the 2 models I've got most of my 115 hours in. They don't have anything that can be used to combine Complex and HP. They do have:

For HP : Cessna 182T - $212/hr wet
For Complex: Piper 28r - $154/hr wet

I know in other parts of the country there are better rental rates than these. I've long toyed with the idea of taking a few days off to plan a vacation some place that has a flight school with aircraft that can allow for combining this training. Would be nice to spend some of my vacation knocking out the training, and the rest enjoying the local area. I've got several vacation days to burn this year (or lose them after year end) and wanted to see if anyone can recommend a place I should look at. About a year ago I found a flight school in Bentonville/Fayetteville Arkansas area (I think it was Summit aviation) that seemed to have packages for this kind of combined training. Their site shows no mention of those offerings anymore.

I'm most likely to rent the PA28's more often here since they rent for about the same as the 172SP and cruise a bit faster, and no daily minimums. I would only need the payload capacity of the 182 on rare occasions.

If you have personal experience doing combined training someplace that has good CFIs and decent rental rates, please let me know! Thanks!
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Plus One Flyers in San Diego. Great vacation place. They have the airplanes to do what you want to do. Downside is you'd have to join for a month but it's not that much. plusoneflyers.org. Click About and then Instructor Members. Make some contacts and tell them what you want to do. San Diego ain't cheap and neither are the CFI's, but if your "vacation piggy bank" can take it, give it a try
 
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