Compass Swing who can and can not

[Stache]

Recently the compass rose has come up office conversation and who, when, how, and what type of compass survey should be accomplished. I can assure everyone reading this not all airports have their surveyed compass rose (calibrated). Many airports have compass roses that may not be accurate due to underground pipes or other metal objects that will affect the accuracy of the survey.

The FAA has published a document FAA No. 405, Standards for Aeronautical Surveys and Related Products that explains why and how a compass rose should be surveyed.

Next who can perform the compass swing (calibration) to your onboard compass installed in your aircraft? Only a Repair station with the proper ratings with the proper training, current manuals available, and proper tooling. This is where it may get sticky for some. FAR 65 Subpart D for Mechanics does NOT allow Airframe rated mechanic to swing (calibrate) compasses. Only a repair station with the proper rating can perform this task. FAR 65.81(a) excluded airframe mechanics form performing maintenance, major repairs to, and major alterations of, propellers, and any repair to, or alterations of instruments. The compass is considered an instrument. FAR 1.1 under maintenance explains calibrations are considered a repair. So this just leaves repair stations to adjust/swing your compass.

Needless to say a pilot cannot perform this task as it is not considered preventive maintenance.

AC 43.13-1B does explain how to perform a compass swing and is acceptable data however the compass rose has to be surveyed to make it legal. The repair station will make an airframe record entry stated what data the followed such as AC 43.13-1B, chapter 1, section 3. FAR 23.1327 explain the installed compass has to be accurate and all compasses are classified as instruments.

Bottom line is the compass rose has to be surveyed (check with your local airport) and a repair station has to perform the compass swing.

Stache

 

[Tom-D]

"and a repair station has to perform the compass swing.

Stache"

That's laughable, that would make 99,9% of the GA aircraft unairworthy..

that forces every owner to revert to the orignal compass correction card, correct or not. readable or not.

IMHO this is just another method of adding expenses to the aircraft ownership.

 

[tonycondon]

i havent read any of the regs. is this any different in an experimental aircraft vs. certified?

For a compass to be legal, it must have a correction card, right?

 

[Tim]

Recently the compass rose has come up office conversation and who, when, how, and what type of compass survey should be accomplished. I can assure everyone reading this not all airports have their surveyed compass rose (calibrated). Many airports have compass roses that may not be accurate due to underground pipes or other metal objects that will affect the accuracy of the survey.

The FAA has published a document FAA No. 405, Standards for Aeronautical Surveys and Related Products that explains why and how a compass rose should be surveyed.

Next who can perform the compass swing (calibration) to your onboard compass installed in your aircraft? Only a Repair station with the proper ratings with the proper training, current manuals available, and proper tooling. This is where it may get sticky for some. FAR 65 Subpart D for Mechanics does NOT allow Airframe rated mechanic to swing (calibrate) compasses. Only a repair station with the proper rating can perform this task. FAR 65.81(a) excluded airframe mechanics form performing maintenance, major repairs to, and major alterations of, propellers, and any repair to, or alterations of instruments. The compass is considered an instrument. FAR 1.1 under maintenance explains calibrations are considered a repair. So this just leaves repair stations to adjust/swing your compass.

Needless to say a pilot cannot perform this task as it is not considered preventive maintenance.

AC 43.13-1B does explain how to perform a compass swing and is acceptable data however the compass rose has to be surveyed to make it legal. The repair station will make an airframe record entry stated what data the followed such as AC 43.13-1B, chapter 1, section 3. FAR 23.1327 explain the installed compass has to be accurate and all compasses are classified as instruments.

Bottom line is the compass rose has to be surveyed (check with your local airport) and a repair station has to perform the compass swing.

Stache

I'm really thinking about writing to congress about your FSDO office.

 

[mikea]

It good the see that such effort is being made on such pressing matters.

We can only imagine how many accidents will be prevented each week thanks to properly oriented compasses and compass roses with work done solely by qualified repair shops.

 

[Tom-D]

i havent read any of the regs. is this any different in an experimental aircraft vs. certified?

For a compass to be legal, it must have a correction card, right?

right.

Stache's premise is based upon FAR 65 not giving instrument calibration.as an authorized ability.

but it actually says

"65.95. However, he may not supervise the maintenance, preventive maintenance, or alteration of, or approve and return to service, any aircraft or appliance, or part thereof, for which he is rated unless he has satisfactorily performed the work concerned at an earlier date. If he has not so performed that work at an earlier date, he may show his ability to do it by performing it to the satisfaction of the Administrator or under the direct supervision of a certificated and appropriately rated mechanic, or a certificated repairman, who has had previous experience in the specific operation concerned"

WE know the A&P never has authorization to modify anything. that is reserved for the IA and FSDO airworthiness inspectors.

I say if the A&P has the training or they have completed the job before, they can continue.

The next question is how does the FAA prove the A&P has not had the training.

And last but not least, how is stache going to seperate the compass correction cards that were made by the A&Ps over the years, from the repair stations completed cards, with out red taging every aircraft on every ramp.

His reading of the rules amounts to a new AD, mandating every aircraft with unknown compass calibration to be re-calibrated.

 

[Tom-D]

I'm really thinking about writing to congress about your FSDO office.

That is a very good idea.

Address Patty Murray, she is on the transportation commitee and hates the FAA anyway.

 

[Tom-D]

It good the see that such effort is being made on such pressing matters.

We can only imagine how many accidents will be prevented each week thanks to properly oriented compasses and compass roses with work solely by qualified repair shops.

You make me laugh, really, thats funny.

you see this is not the first time ol stache has brought these horrible inadequacies in general aviation maintence to light and tried to make a big deal out of them.

But what I wonder is, when he and his cohorts finally get every GA aircraft grounded and the private aircraft becomes a thing of the past, what will he do for a living.

Every day our fleet of aircraft gets smaller and smaller. every day aircraft get more and more beyond the reach of more and more young folks..

I wonder why?

 

[Tim]

That is a very good idea.

Address Patty Murray, she is on the transportation commitee and hates the FAA anyway.

My Three are quit aware of Aviation and how to deal with FSDO's that are out of control. I have to make a trip to Ok City this week if I have time I would like to stop by Mike Monroney center just for fun. Am I sick?

 

[John Reed]

What's the big deal about getting your compass calibrated by a repair station that has the right testing equipment rather than a not so accurate reverse compass, or a compass rose that you can't be sure is accurate, or directional gyro?
Older aircraft have more unairworthy discrepancies than relatively newer ones which don't cost that much more second hand, and may prove to be more cost efficient and safer than maintaining (or lack thereof) the older ones.
If an owner can't afford to maintain their aircraft to the high standards expected, and rather complain and piont the finger away from themselves about how they can't get away with letting things go; don't shoot the messenger but address the real problem, and stop living in denial. Most aircraft out there are maintained in a sub-standard fashion; and especially flight school aircraft are unairworthy.

 

[SkyHog]

What's the big deal about getting your compass calibrated by a repair station that has the right testing equipment rather than a not so accurate reverse compass, or a compass rose that you can't be sure is accurate, or directional gyro?
Older aircraft have more unairworthy discrepancies than relatively newer ones which don't cost that much more second hand, and may prove to be more cost efficient and safer than maintaining (or lack thereof) the older ones.
If an owner can't afford to maintain their aircraft to the high standards expected, and rather complain and piont the finger away from themselves about how they can't get away with letting things go; don't shoot the messenger but address the real problem, and stop living in denial. Most aircraft out there are maintained in a sub-standard fashion; and especially flight school aircraft are unairworthy.

Its a compass!

'nuff said.

 

[Tim]

What's the big deal about getting your compass calibrated by a repair station that has the right testing equipment rather than a not so accurate reverse compass, or a compass rose that you can't be sure is accurate, or directional gyro?
Older aircraft have more unairworthy discrepancies than relatively newer ones which don't cost that much more second hand, and may prove to be more cost efficient and safer than maintaining (or lack thereof) the older ones.
If an owner can't afford to maintain their aircraft to the high standards expected, and rather complain and piont the finger away from themselves about how they can't get away with letting things go; don't shoot the messenger but address the real problem, and stop living in denial. Most aircraft out there are maintained in a sub-standard fashion; and especially flight school aircraft are unairworthy.

I don't know what to tell you??? I guess you have an unlimited supply of Money. Let me explain to you that A&P's have been able to swing a compass for ever. If they want to change somthing like that then the industry would and should have input. If the messenger can't take the bullet's then get out of the way...............

You paint with a broad brush If there are unairworthy planes out there then the FAA isn't doing their job are they.

Let's re-invent the wheel again

 

[poadeleted20]

First, Stache is correct on all counts. A&P's are not authorized to swing compasses or even refill them unless they have some authorization beyond their basic A&P certificate. OTOH, I've never seen the FAA lurking around compass roses waiting for a pilot to show up with an airplane and a brass screwdriver, or sneaking into mechanic's shops looking for illicit bottles of compass fluid.

Second, yes, a compass correction card is required to be airworthy. It's one of those little, easy-to-check things that inspectors and examiners look for on PACE checks, ramp checks, and practical tests. However, it's very, very hard to tell if the compass card is accurate -- mere presence has always been sufficient to satisfy every inspector I've ever seen look for it.

Third, a good avionics shop will have a repair station license and reswing the compass upon installation of new avionics -- including a new compass card.

 

[Eamon]

Stache is correct.

How may of you have a compass card without the "radio on" box checked?

If the compass was swung without the radios on &/or without the radio on box checked, you are not legal to fly IFR.

Maybe a regular AP or an owner would not know this & forget to check the box.

Next ramp check after an IFR flight & you are busted.

No reason to pay an AP to swing your compass when you can pay an extra $20 & have it done by a repair shop.

Or do it yourself, do it right & dont tell anyone.

 

[tonycondon]

mine doesnt have a radio box...

i guess this spring i should make an appointment at the closest avionics shop, in Waterloo, and fly the glider up there to have this done. Maybe they'll install an electrical system and put a Dynon in the panel while they're at it. Actually itd be kinda fun to fly my glider into Class D.

 

[Skip Miller]

Is there a distinction between a) swinging the compass (including getting out your brass screwdriver and adjusting the compass), and b) taxiing over to the compass rose and re-doing your deviation card because the old one is lost or illegible?

The distinction I am driving at is in b) above you are not adjusting the compass - merely observing the deviation at various headings and recording them.

-Skip

 

[gismo]

Is there a distinction between a) swinging the compass (including getting out your brass screwdriver and adjusting the compass), and b) taxiing over to the compass rose and re-doing your deviation card because the old one is lost or illegible?

The distinction I am driving at is in b) above you are not adjusting the compass - merely observing the deviation at various headings and recording them.

-Skip

Dunno, but creating or modifying the deviation card doesn't seem like repairing the compass to me.

But then neither does adjusting the compensation. How is that different than adjusting the squelch level or display brightness on a radio if said adjustment is a trimpot behind a hole in the case? I can see how taking a compass apart to replace the seal etc. would be a repair requiring a repair station license, but why should turning an exposed adjustment?

And on a related note, I've never seen a deviation card for a slaved HSI or DG which is essentially a remote magnetic compass. IME the slaving sensor ("flux gate") is located in an area of the aircraft that minimizes the impact of any magnetic or electrical devices so even uncompensated they might be more accurate, but there still must be some residual error. Shouldn't there be a deviation card for one then?

 

[Stache]

I'm really thinking about writing to congress about your FSDO office.

This has nothing to do with where I work, I just provide information only from home. As stated this is one man's opinion.

Stache

 

[Eamon]

mine doesnt have a radio box...

i guess this spring i should make an appointment at the closest avionics shop, in Waterloo, and fly the glider up there to have this done. Maybe they'll install an electrical system and put a Dynon in the panel while they're at it. Actually itd be kinda fun to fly my glider into Class D.

You fly IFR in an glider? WOW, Mighty stones

 

[Eamon]

I'm really thinking about writing to congress about your FSDO office.

Yea, Me too... I think a letter of praise for all of Staches info is in order.

The FAA rules might suck at times but don't shoot the messenger.

 

[sierra]

Next who can perform the compass swing (calibration) to your onboard compass installed in your aircraft? Only a Repair station with the proper ratings with the proper training, current manuals available, and proper tooling. This is where it may get sticky for some. FAR 65 Subpart D for Mechanics does NOT allow Airframe rated mechanic to swing (calibrate) compasses.
Stache

Stache,

So the rating goes to the repair station and not the technician/mechanic? An Avionics certified A&P IA may not perform compass calibrations from their Chevy Bronco Mobile Repair Station unless said Chevy is also registered (or something) with the FAA?

I would like to THANK YOU PROFUSELY for your postings on the information out there. Being a busy person, without your posting info on new ADs and information pertinent (and this one is) to my Li'l Lima, I'd be doing the ol' college all-nighter trying to figure out what is appropriate and new. You help my sorry lazy butt out in a major way

-sierra

 

[tonycondon]

You fly IFR in an glider? WOW, Mighty stones

not yet

Yea, Me too... I think a letter of praise for all of Staches info is in order.

The FAA rules might suck at times but don't shoot the messenger

Roger that! Stache has helped me a ton understanding the intricacies of my operating limitations of my glider. I would like to know where to write that letter to!

 

[Tom-D]

Can anybody one on this board tell me what this means?

§65.81 General privileges and limitations.

(a) A certificated mechanic may perform or supervise the maintenance, preventive maintenance or alteration of an aircraft or appliance, or a part thereof, for which he is rated (but excluding major repairs to, and major alterations of, propellers, and any repair to, or alteration of, instruments), and may perform additional duties in accordance with §§65.85, 65.87, and


To me this means I can work on and return to service, anything I have the tools and training for..I can not repair or alter instruments. SERVICING and ADJUSTING are not repairs.

And That is the guidance given to me by Bill O'Brien before he retired.

As long as I have the AC43-2b and a non magnetic screw driver and a compass rose I fulfill the requirements. and nothing but a log book entry is required to return to service.

I'm playing phone tag with my PMI this morning (due to the snow storm)but will report back with what he says

 

[Tom-D]

First, Stache is correct on all counts.

NOT,,,, IAW any other FSDO.& OKC

His reading of :

65.81 General privileges and limitations.

Is not in compliance with OKC policy.

UNless there has been a policy change with in the past few weeks.

I'm checking on that now.

 

[Tom-D]

Think about this boys and girls, If Stache's interpertation of the rules is correct then you as a pilot can't adjust the altimeter setting, because that is an adjustment of an instrument.

 

[poadeleted20]

NOT,,,, IAW any other FSDO.& OKC

Wrong. I've checked on this before, and Stache's post is consistent with FAA policy as quoted by AFS-300 and various FSDO's. Get over it, Tom -- this is the way it is, no matter how you read Part 65.

 

[Tom-D]

Wrong. I've checked on this before, and Stache's post is consistent with FAA policy as quoted by AFS-300 and various FSDO's. Get over it, Tom -- this is the way it is, no matter how you read Part 65.

I just got off the phone with my FSDO airworthiness inspector at

Seattle FSDO
Contact the Office
Address:
1601 Lind Avenue SW, Suite 260
Renton, WA 98057

Phone: (425) 227-2813 or (800) 354-1940 Fax: (425) 227-1810


and they conferm It's well with the A&P authorization to swing a compass, call them ask for Ken in airworthiness.

and OBTW I have read and posted the FAR 65 you read it and tell me where it says I can't adjust an instrument.

 

[poadeleted20]

So the rating goes to the repair station and not the technician/mechanic? An Avionics certified A&P IA may not perform...

I'd like to know what section of Part 65 provides for an "avionics" rating on a Mechanic certificate. It's most definitely not in 14 CFR 65.73(a), which provides only for Airframe and Powerplant ratings. To my knowledge, the only ratings authorizing work on avionics are issued to repair stations; the Repairmen working at those stations derive their authority from the certificate holder, and cannot do the work other than under that certificate holder's authority. See 14 CFR 65.103(a) and 14 CFR 145.59. Per 14 CFR 145.59(e)(1), the only authority in the FAR's to work on a magnetic compass is contained in a Class 1 Instrument repair station rating.

 

[poadeleted20]

I just got off the phone with my FSDO airworthiness inspector at Seattle FSDO

One FSDO does not a policy make. Try checking with AFS-300 tomorrow and see what they say.

 

[Tom-D]

I'd like to know what section of Part 65 provides for an "avionics" rating on a Mechanic certificate. .

There is no such thing as an Avionics rating or it would be on my Certificate

It is quite clear in FAR 65.81 what an a&P can do and what they can't.

all you need to is read and understand the difference between repair and adjustment.

 

[Tom-D]

One FSDO does not a policy make. Try checking with AFS-300 tomorrow and see what they say.

I'll do just that and I will ask about adjustments NOT repairs.

until then do not adjust the altimeter in your aircraft with out a repair station certificate. and a 337

Like I said in my first post, this is laughable.

 

[Tom-D]

This is not the first time Ol Stache has been proven wrong, and Ron, when you ask the FAA to give a reading, please ask the right question, do not ask who can "repair", ask who is allowed to adjust, service, and return to service.

and If you remember Bill O'Brien was the head mechanic for the FAA for many years and there has been no policy change since he left.

Servicing, installation, cleaning, and adjustments have always been A&P functions, that has not changed.

 

[Tom-D]

This was submitted to AFS 300 via their electronic message board

"Who is authorized to swing a wet compass?

I always understood FAR 65.81 "A certificated mechanic may perform or supervise the maintenance, preventive maintenance or alteration of an aircraft or appliance, or a part thereof,

Doesn't this statement give the A&P mechanic the authorization to adjust(not Repair)the compass compensator, at the compass rose???

We'll see what they say.

 

[poadeleted20]

You forgot to ask the other big mag compass question -- refilling and replacing the seals.

 

[poadeleted20]

This is not the first time Ol Stache has been proven wrong, and Ron, when you ask the FAA to give a reading, please ask the right question, do not ask who can "repair", ask who is allowed to adjust, service, and return to service.

I didn't ask "repair," I asked about performing swings, refilling with fluid, and replacing the seals/diaphragm. I was told it takes a Class 1 Instrument rating for all three.

 

[Tom-D]

I didn't ask "repair," I asked about performing swings, refilling with fluid, and replacing the seals/diaphragm. I was told it takes a Class 1 Instrument rating for all three.

Those are repairs, that is why you got the answer you did.

swings are not, but when you groupe them together they will answer to the repairs..

And we both agree that the A&P can not repair instruments.

 

[Tom-D]

You forgot to ask the other big mag compass question -- refilling and replacing the seals.

I did not ask the question that the FAR answers, (they are repairs) we already know the answer.

 

[SkyHog]

I think I'm gonna say it again. Its a compass!! The thing we all used in 4th grade to find North. The thing as boyscouts we made out of a stick and a leaf.

The fact that it requires even an A&P to swing boggles my mind. What is next? You need to be a licensed mechanic to refuel an airplane?

 

[tonycondon]

yea so on an experimental do these rules apply? can i fill out my own compass card or is it off to the repair station for me?

can i turn the screw to fix major deviations found while filling out card?

 

[Tom-D]

I don't know what to tell you??? I guess you have an unlimited supply of Money. Let me explain to you that A&P's have been able to swing a compass for ever. If they want to change somthing like that then the industry would and should have input. If the messenger can't take the bullet's then get out of the way...............

You paint with a broad brush If there are unairworthy planes out there then the FAA isn't doing their job are they.

Let's re-invent the wheel again

For all to know, it is not just a case of money, it is a few owner/pilots willing to roll over and give away privileges of a rating to one person who thinks they dictate policy from one FSDO.

I am hoping when the tables are turned and one person attacks your certificate and tries to remove your privileges, you will not like me rolling over and saying they are OK doing that.