Commuting from Tacoma, WA to San Jose, CA

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AnthnyR

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Anthony
Hello all,

I may find myself commuting for work from Tacoma to San Jose on a weekly basis. I’d like to buy an airplane capable of making this commute at least a couple times a month and would use the airlines the other weeks.

My primary mission requirements would be:
1. Speed to get to San Jose area in about 4hrs
2. Range to do it without a fuel stop
3. Six seats to carry wife and 4 small kids (not on trips for work but other flights for vacation)

I’m interested in hearing from anyone who’s done this before, getting ideas for airplanes that can do this mission, and examples of operating cost.

Thanks!

Anthony
 
King Air.

...now what kinda of budget are your work working with for purchase price as those are some lofty goals?
 
By my math, that's a 150kt plane to do it in 4 hours give/take.

since you want to make the trip most of the time, I think you're looking at something de-iced.

6 people and 150kts and de-iced starts limiting options.

On the lower end, you could look at an Lance or Saratoga or a twin like an Aztec/Seminole (all are available with de-ice)

On the higher end, you'll have a lot more options to include turboprops, depending on what you want to spend.

Another thing to consider is to give up one or the other of your requirements. ie, can you give up 6 seats in your daily driver to get a small/fast plane (older Bonanza?) or continue to fly commercial for work most of the time, but buy a family hauler that's maybe a little slower than 150.

Here is a deiced Aztec that might be an option asking 75K https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/193176895/1971-piper-aztec-e you could add a moving map GPS and hot plate to it and have what looks like a good traveler

finding a single engine with boots is like hen's teeth. Cirrus has a lot of de-iced planes but they're 4-5 passenger, not 6
 
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Cessna 414 with deice. Probably the best value you can find these days. 35 GPH sounds high, but you can get a pretty well equipped one under $200k and you're well into the 200s up high, and still doing 180-190 down low. Most of them have toilets on board too, which may be important for the wife and kids.

A Malibu is also a good option, but they can be pretty pricey. The operating costs, especially for properly run (LOP) Continental powered ones from the Mid-Late 80s are about as good as it gets.

Navajos are underrated, and can carry ice like beasts, and the booted ones have extremely effective boot systems even if they aren't FIKI.

Edit: Given your mission, I don't think you should get a plane without at least "oh s#!t" deice. Oregon is an ice machine. I'd also consider a real radar.
 
AnthnyR said:
Currently ASEL, Commercial, IR, CFI. With about 600 hours.
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Malibu or DeIced 210/Bonanza are kinda your choices now. I'd really look at getting your multi for the mission you're looking at. If you didn't need 6, I'd say get a Mooney with TKS.
 
AnthnyR said:
Currently ASEL, Commercial, IR, CFI. With about 600 hours.
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I should also note that I have 2000hrs as an Air Force C-130 navigator. Which is to say I am familiar with ice, deviating around wx, using wx radar, etc.
 
AnthnyR said:
I should also note that I have 2000hrs as an Air Force C-130 navigator. Which is to say I am familiar with ice, deviating around wx, using wx radar, etc.
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Cool! Wasnt sure if you were a non pilot and starting out with a million dollar plane problem vs how do get a medical LOL!

From above sounds like you need to spend around $750 or more including first annual and maybe $500/hr.
 
MIFlyer said:
By my math, that's a 150kt plane to do it in 4 hours give/take.

since you want to make the trip most of the time, I think you're looking at something de-iced.

6 people and 150kts and de-iced starts limiting options.

On the lower end, you could look at an Lance or Saratoga or a twin like an Aztec/Seminole (all are available with de-ice)

On the higher end, you'll have a lot more options to include turboprops, depending on what you want to spend.

Another thing to consider is to give up one or the other of your requirements. ie, can you give up 6 seats in your daily driver to get a small/fast plane (older Bonanza?) or continue to fly commercial for work most of the time, but buy a family hauler that's maybe a little slower than 150.

Here is a deiced Aztec that might be an option asking 75K https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/193176895/1971-piper-aztec-e you could add a moving map GPS and hot plate to it and have what looks like a good traveler

finding a single engine with boots is like hen's teeth. Cirrus has a lot of de-iced planes but they're 4-5 passenger, not 6
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Thanks. I’ve been looking at Lances/early Saratoga’s and Aztecs. Both normally aspirated and turbos. Do you have any experience with those? I’ve looked at specs for the turbos lances and Aztecs online and their ranges seems like it would be too close to make it without a fuel stop.

I’ve also noticed frequent icing airmets and low freezing levels when researching the weather. That’s made me doubt if it’s worth it to fly myself or airline it. But I guess it’s either stress from weather or traffic and SEATAC.
 
AnthnyR said:
Hello all,

I may find myself commuting for work from Tacoma to San Jose on a weekly basis. I’d like to buy an airplane capable of making this commute at least a couple times a month and would use the airlines the other weeks.

My primary mission requirements would be:
1. Speed to get to San Jose area in about 4hrs
2. Range to do it without a fuel stop
3. Six seats to carry wife and 4 small kids (not on trips for work but other flights for vacation)

I’m interested in hearing from anyone who’s done this before, getting ideas for airplanes that can do this mission, and examples of operating cost.

Thanks!

Anthony
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What is your budget?
 
Scott@KTYR said:
What is your budget?
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I’m not smart on realistic cost for owning a plane. So I’m not sure what my budget should be. I would have to finance the plane. I think my budget could go as high as $4k a month for fixed and variable cost. That would be a tough sell tho and I would probably not do it. Maybe $2.5k a month would be a better start.
 
I don't think you'd be able to hit $2500/m with anything other than some small experimentals. Looking at 32+ hours a month in a 150kt aircraft. Even a Mooney would run around $100/h.
 
A DA62 would do nicely, but IDK if you want to shell out the initial million bucks for one.
 
AnthnyR said:
Thanks. I’ve been looking at Lances/early Saratoga’s and Aztecs. Both normally aspirated and turbos. Do you have any experience with those? I’ve looked at specs for the turbos lances and Aztecs online and their ranges seems like it would be too close to make it without a fuel stop.

I’ve also noticed frequent icing airmets and low freezing levels when researching the weather. That’s made me doubt if it’s worth it to fly myself or airline it. But I guess it’s either stress from weather or traffic and SEATAC.
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I'm researching for when I can buy and am between an Aztec and another twin. @GRG55 and @Ted DuPuis are Aztec experts and both have familiarity with our weather
 
Funny, this is my mission too (I go to LA also -- and I'm down in Portland, so a 45mn headstart), and solved it with a baron. I'm not de-iced save for the props, but I am over-engined, and it hasn't been a problem yet.

I have six seats, but I wouldn't put more than teens in the very back, not for 4 hours anyway. I usually keep seats 5/6 in the hangar and enjoy double baggage space instead.

Was just lunching up at Friday Harbor yesterday since the wx has been so nice. Can pour some kool-aid for you if you ever get down this way and want to try it out :D
 
schmookeeg said:
Funny, this is my mission too (I go to LA also -- and I'm down in Portland, so a 45mn headstart), and solved it with a baron. I'm not de-iced save for the props, but I am over-engined, and it hasn't been a problem yet.

I have six seats, but I wouldn't put more than teens in the very back, not for 4 hours anyway. I usually keep seats 5/6 in the hangar and enjoy double baggage space instead.

Was just lunching up at Friday Harbor yesterday since the wx has been so nice. Can pour some kool-aid for you if you ever get down this way and want to try it out :D
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That’s awesome. What kind of Baron? I see lots of 55’s that look like good deals over the 58’s. How much have you had to deal with icing? Does it make you change your plans often?
 
porttack said:
I don't think you'd be able to hit $2500/m with anything other than some small experimentals. Looking at 32+ hours a month in a 150kt aircraft. Even a Mooney would run around $100/h.
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I was figuring more like 16-20 hrs a month. ~8hrs twice a month for work plus some occasional recreational family flying.

But if it can’t be done then I may have to scale back my requirements. I have given some thought to starting out with a Turbo Arrow or Mooney 231 and then moving up later if needed.
 
AnthnyR said:
That’s awesome. What kind of Baron? I see lots of 55’s that look like good deals over the 58’s. How much have you had to deal with icing? Does it make you change your plans often?
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D55. The C/D/E Barons are all sorta strange things with big engines on little airframes. Usually reasonable price tags as you note, as they drink like a fish, and not everyone wants to lift a literal ton into the air.

I swear I get ice by mt shasta every freaking time I fly through there, but I have never had it accumulate very long, and I'm pretty proactive about changing altitude by 2 or 4k when i discover trace. I get ice in winter just be-bopping around Portland in IMC maybe 1 outta 3 times. I don't like the stuff. I usually keep an out or two in the back pocket.

For running to the bay area, you always have the coastal route with low MEAs and the desert route with the hillbillies who havent seen a cloud since the Reagan administration. There's usually one option that is head and shoulders "more reasonable" than the others when you plan it.

I don't have very many "absolutely must do" missions, but I'll tackle a spot of hard IFR now and again, and it's a pretty stable platform for it. I haven't missed a mission yet for weather or dispatch.

It's cash intensive though. I think your 30k/yr plan is possible for 100 hours/yr, for 200, I'd go with the 50k/yr numbers. I'd want to start with 50k in the bank earmarked for catch-up maintenance and whatnot, and plan to blow it all, as none of these airframes are young.

$0.02
 
N1120A said:
Edit: Given your mission, I don't think you should get a plane without at least "oh s#!t" deice. Oregon is an ice machine. I'd also consider a real radar.
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I'm based at KOLM, and am a member of a club that has a pair of C-172s and a C-182. So my experience with planes that will make it to the Bay Area in 4 hours is non-existent. That said, Oregon isn't the only ice machine around here. Western Washington qualifies, as well. If you want something that is more than a fair weather airplane, you need FIKI. Otherwise you will be riding the pressurized aluminum mailing tubes often. Being in Tacoma, that means SEA as your home base.

Being that we're a bit south of there (and have a daughter who lives in Vancouver, WA), we go out of PDX now and then. A much nicer airport with less expensive parking. Back when I worked for Intel I had a trip to Germany and Israel that was $600 less expensive to fly out of PDX than SEA. And the first leg flying out of SEA would have been to PDX and then the rest of the itinerary was the same. I flew out of PDX. Just something to keep in mind.
 
MIFlyer said:
I'm researching for when I can buy and am between an Aztec and another twin. @GRG55 and @Ted DuPuis are Aztec experts and both have familiarity with our weather
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For icing capability, the Aztec can't be beat until you get into turbine equipment. For running north and south along the west coast, the off-shore airways at great as you avoid the lifting action of the hills which can significantly increase the severity of the icing.
 
For affordability the Lance is hard to beat. But your dispatch rate is going to suffer. If you’re fine with taking your plane when weather is good and commercial when it’s crappy, the Lance makes sense.
Don’t underestimate insurance costs when factoring your monthly costs. Getting a big twin might cost you a lot in insurance.
On the other hand, if you have to pay sales tax on the plane purchase in your state, it might make sense to pay the insurance rates to avoid having to pay sales tax again when you decide to upgrade to the twin.
 
Heftiger said:
For affordability the Lance is hard to beat. But your dispatch rate is going to suffer. If you’re fine with taking your plane when weather is good and commercial when it’s crappy, the Lance makes sense.
Don’t underestimate insurance costs when factoring your monthly costs. Getting a big twin might cost you a lot in insurance.
On the other hand, if you have to pay sales tax on the plane purchase in your state, it might make sense to pay the insurance rates to avoid having to pay sales tax again when you decide to upgrade to the twin.
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This is a good point. Sales tax in WA is close to 10%.

On the insurance front, about two years ago I was quoted $2500/year for coverage in a 50K Aztec. While the insurance market has tightened, the OP has WAY more experience than I (i'm 150 hr ASEL with no IR), so I expect if he kept the hull value to 100k or less it probably wouldn't be bad
 
MIFlyer said:
This is a good point. Sales tax in WA is close to 10%.

On the insurance front, about two years ago I was quoted $2500/year for coverage in a 50K Aztec. While the insurance market has tightened, the OP has WAY more experience than I (i'm 150 hr ASEL with no IR), so I expect if he kept the hull value to 100k or less it probably wouldn't be bad
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Regarding airfields, there is TIW, Thun and probably some I'm not thinking of, and you can probably actually get a hangar, unlike the Seattle area
 
Lots of excellent advice and suggestions posted above.
Though you have a fair bit of experience, you should find out about your insurance costs, it might be fairly high for the twins, or even such as a Malibu, pushing those out of your budget range.
I like the idea you mentioned, starting out somewhat "smaller," six-seat single options are Piper Lance/Saratoga or Malibu, Bonanzas, Cessna 210s. Personally I'd go for turbocharged, though you could obviously make the trip sometimes without. Basically, you just have to trade off mission percentage versus budget reality, accepting maybe 2 out of 3 trips in the winter just have to be airline, or whatever. (Until you can afford that King Air or PC-12!)

Edit: oops, I see MIFlyer posted some insurance numbers, maybe not as bad as I imagined.
 
Not entirely on point, but in a previous life I flew round trips between Boeing Field in Seattle and Oakland six nights a week in the middle of the night, in all weather, in non-pressurized, non FIKI airplanes (OK, twins...but that is not relevant to this discussion) and ice was never a problem. If I ever got above 12000 it was very briefly, just to meet an MEA. Based on that experience alone I would place FIKI well down on my list of gotta-haves.

Bob Gardner
 
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