Commercial tour operator turning off ADS-B

Roger Wilco said:
When we, the GA community, become aware of the bad actors among us but we fail to take action,
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You lost me at the point of claiming that I must be a bad actor because I took no action. Sorry, I don’t buy into guilt by virtue of not being a tattle tell. MYOB, there are too many idiots out there that you will never control.
 
Roger Wilco said:
It’s all fun and games, until someone loses an eye…

I have to admit to being a bit taken aback by the aggressiveness of some of the replies. The OP raises an issue that we, the GA community, have not always handled well. Too many accidents have occurred that were foreshadowed by numerous red flags, red flags that provided ample opportunity for intervention that might have prevented those accidents.

Far too many accidents have been caused by carelessness, recklessness, willful negligence, and/or intentional noncompliance on the part of pilots and operators. Often those behaviors formed an established a pattern that was known to others in the aviation community well before fate caught up to the rogue and his luck ran out. And too often, the resultant smoking hole was littered with the remains of others whose only mistake was to trust their lives to the wrong people.

When we, the GA community, become aware of the bad actors among us but we fail to take action, then we must shoulder a portion of blame when things go horribly wrong. But we don’t do we? Instead, after the accident, we shake our heads and say things like “bound to happen sooner or later” and “he was an accident waiting to happen.” Meanwhile family members grieve, news reports fan the flames of anti-GA activism, and insurance rates continue to climb for the rest of us.

In the July, 2022 edition of AOPA Pilot, columnist Catherine Cavagnaro puts a sharp point on it, writing, “Years ago, I saw reckless behavior from a local pilot…that pilot later perished in an aviation accident that took the life of someone else as well.” Sadly, I have three similar stories, and many of you have them also. Cavagnaro went on to share that she had reported a more recent safety-of-flight incident, involving a different pilot, to the FAA Hotline, with the hope that a future accident might be prevented (note that there are no data regarding accidents that did not happen).

Back to the OP: Keep in mind that we're talking about a commercial operator, which makes this issue more troubling. The moment an operator sells a seat to the public, a higher degree of care is required and the rules tighten accordingly. I do not advocate making a report to the FAA (or any agency) based on rumors. But IF the commercial tour operator intentionally disabled ADS-B, when ADS-B was required to be operating, it certainly demonstrates willful negligence and intentional noncompliance. Worse still, such an operator is very likely to engage in other acts and behaviors that flaunt regulations and compromise safety, commonly including (but not limited to) shoddy maintenance, substandard training, pencil-whipping documents, failing to comply with regulations and ops specs requirements…the list is long. Investigations often reveal that the bad behaviors we are aware of (the red flags) are only the tip of the iceberg.

Bad actors cause harm to all of us. When they cause accidents we all pay a price, even if we are not directly involved. Some replies to the OP rather strongly suggested that he mind his own business. I disagree: It is OUR business, and our collective best interest, to recognize the red flags of unsafe acts, attitudes, and behaviors, and to do what we can to prevent bad actors from killing themselves and their passengers, and possibly us along with them. A report to the FAA may or may not be the best course of action, but to turn away and do nothing is the worst.

RW
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I heard that you pencil whip your flight reviews. I personally don’t believe that you would do such a thing, but thinking of your safety and the safety of others, I reported such to the regional FAA office. If you have nothing to hide, it shouldn’t be an issue.
 
So here’s a question:

What pilot behavior would make you do something?

A pilot who regularly flies under the influence? Someone claiming to be an A&P (who you know isn’t) working on other peoples planes? A pilot who repeatedly does aerobatics in a non-aerobatic airplane with others on board?

I’m just trying to figure out where the line is.
 
donjohnston said:
So here’s a question:

What pilot behavior would make you do something?

A pilot who regularly flies under the influence? Someone claiming to be an A&P (who you know isn’t) working on other peoples planes? A pilot who repeatedly does aerobatics in a non-aerobatic airplane with others on board?

I’m just trying to figure out where the line is.
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It would have to be a first hand observation of a serious infraction. Observing a pilot about to fly drunk would get me to call the tower. However, Knowing Somebody on an expired medical flying his J3 cub out of a rural grass strip would not be cause for action on my part. But if a friend, we would talk and I would offer to right seat for him.
 
The problem is that the OP doesn’t know anything. It is speculation and rumor. I suspect that the so called offender is someone he or some friend has a personal beef with. And this is his way of causing problems for his nemesis. Or perhaps he affiliated with a competing operator and wants to cut down on competition.
The way the case was presented here makes me think that it is harassment by FAA.
 
Wasn’t six papa Charlie turned into the FAA for giving instruction? Wasn’t a corporate jet guy harassed by the Faa by someone “doing the right thing”.
I have been harassed in this manner. Costs time, money, aggravation, and loss of reputation. You end up having to prove you never did anything, and after you do, most people assume you did it and got away with it.
I doubt if this was a real situation the guy would be here trying to rally support.
 
Morgan3820 said:
It would have to be a first hand observation of a serious infraction. Observing a pilot about to fly drunk would get me to call the tower. However, Knowing Somebody on an expired medical flying his J3 cub out of a rural grass strip would not be cause for action on my part. But if a friend, we would talk and I would offer to right seat for him.
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Not to mention he might be perfectly legal under the sport pilot rules... and Cubs don't generally have right seats... ;):)
 
donjohnston said:
So here’s a question:

What pilot behavior would make you do something?

A pilot who regularly flies under the influence? Someone claiming to be an A&P (who you know isn’t) working on other peoples planes? A pilot who repeatedly does aerobatics in a non-aerobatic airplane with others on board?

I’m just trying to figure out where the line is.
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Willful endangerment of others, especially after being personally confronted with evidence...
 
Morgan3820 said:
It would have to be a first hand observation of a serious infraction. Observing a pilot about to fly drunk would get me to call the tower. However, Knowing Somebody on an expired medical flying his J3 cub out of a rural grass strip would not be cause for action on my part. But if a friend, we would talk and I would offer to right seat for him.
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And that guy with an expired medical was flying a 182 out of a towered field?
 
donjohnston said:
And that guy with an expired medical was flying a 182 out of a towered field?
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Not sure. I would talk with the individual before doing anything. If I knew about his medical situation he is probably a good friend.
I really try to mind my own business.
 
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Wagondriver said:
The problem is that the OP doesn’t know anything. It is speculation and rumor. I suspect that the so called offender is someone he or some friend has a personal beef with. And this is his way of causing problems for his nemesis. Or perhaps he affiliated with a competing operator and wants to cut down on competition.
The way the case was presented here makes me think that it is harassment by FAA.
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If you read the original post, he only asked about how it worked, not that he was absolutely going to. But don't let that get in the way of the pitchforks.
 
EdFred said:
If you read the original post, he only asked about how it worked, not that he was absolutely going to. But don't let that get in the way of the pitchforks.
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I’m generally against pitchforks, but it seems like one would have to be intensely scrutinizing another person’s operation to know with any kind of certainty that they were turning off ADS-B, not to mention you still wouldn’t know if it was a mechanical issue and not deliberate. We were troubleshooting an intermittent issue with a Skybeacon on one of our Cardinals for about two months and sometimes it would work and sometimes wouldn’t and it wasn’t always having an issue when we checked on the ground. We finally replaced it but ATC was pretty good working with us.
I think that the pitchforks are because of the OP’s tone and the lack of other supporting evidence of wrongdoing and honestly seem appropriate.
 
MonkeyClaw said:
We have a commercial tour operator who has been allegedly turning off his ADS-B for his flights. From what I've read, if you have ADS-B installed, you cannot intentionally turn it off. If you do, it is a violation (right Patty?).

One rumor is that they do this so their creditors cannot tell how many tours they are flying, and therefore cannot figure out what kind of income they are bringing in. Others think they are doing it to avoid being blamed for noise complaints (they do not abide by the 'fly friendly' agreement that other tour operators agreed to follow). They are no longer based out of our airport, so we can't take any administrative actions.

In any case, it seems dangerous to do this. There are several tour operators, plus other sightseers that like to fly in the area. What (if anything) can be done about this? If they are reported to the FAA, will anything happen? How would you even report them?
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So, uh, the most obvious solution would be to get some people you know and trust to sign up for a tourist ride with this guy, or go yourself in disguise… and be a good tourist and take pictures and selfies of everything. Maybe even pretend to be an airplane lover nerd and ask some questions about how the transponder and ADS-B work with the FlightAware app on your phone…
 
Whitney said:
A guy got tired of her dog in his yard crapping on his lawn and reported the dog regularly, and finally he had enough and shot the dog.
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They shot the dog? A little extreme, don't ya think?
 
Who was the guy who reported someone for not clearing the active completely when they had maybe a foot hanging over the line? Pedantic disruption.
 
bflynn said:
You lost me at the point of claiming that I must be a bad actor because I took no action. ...
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That was not my claim
bflynn said:
Sorry, I don’t buy into guilt by virtue of not being a tattle tell. MYOB, there are too many idiots out there that you will never control.
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In the context of my earlier post, when one of the "idiots" snuffs himself and several passengers in an act of reckless stupidity, you may be among those who shake their heads and say, "it was inevitable...a proverbial accident waiting to happen." But then you'll be able to pat yourself on the back and boast, "...at least I'm not a tattle tell."
 
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donjohnston said:
So here’s a question:

What pilot behavior would make you do something? ... I’m just trying to figure out where the line is.
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That's a crucial question, and one that each of us must answer for ourselves. Perhaps a frame of reference can be built around this question: Would I allow my child/spouse/loved one to fly with the individual or operator at issue? If the answer is no, maybe some sort of action is worth consideration. Hell No! would definitely merit intervention.
 
Quotes from the OP:
"We have a commercial tour operator who has been allegedly turning off his ADS-B for his flights.
...
Others think they are doing it to avoid being blamed for noise complaints (they do not abide by the 'fly friendly' agreement that other tour operators agreed to follow)."

All the people saying MYOB seem to be ignoring the *commercial* aspect of this and that it is affecting both the people around SEZ (who include a lot of rich retirees with time for complaints) and the other operators there. And as someone else pointed out, if someone *in a business* is going to some trouble to avoid being tracked, who knows what else they're up to. This doesn't read as just joe blow trying to fool around.
 
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donjohnston said:
So here’s a question:

What pilot behavior would make you do something?
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There is a wanna be student pilot at our airport. I say "wanna be" because he doesn't appear serious enough to find regular instruction but has found a guy that he goes to see every few months to get a student solo sign off from. I've encouraged him to go to a flight school close to us and get onboard with an instructor that has a syllabus for training or at least someone that he can train with on a regular basis. He's not interested in any of that.

It's not my business what he does and I don't ask to see his logbook to know if he has a current sign-off. It is none of my business unless and until I see him load a passenger in the plane. That is when I would have a talk/confrontation with him and advise his passenger of the realities of what is about to occur.

FWIW ... he has already received one letter from the feds warning him about flying without a certificate.
 
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Roger Wilco said:
That was not my claim

In the context of my earlier post, when one of the "idiots" snuffs himself and several passengers in an act of reckless stupidity, you may be among those who shake their heads and say, "it was inevitable...a proverbial accident waiting to happen." But then you'll be able to pat yourself on the back and boast, "...at least I'm not a tattle tell."
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Do what you want. You asked the forum, and generally did not get get the validation that you were looking for. Now you wanna argue. Do what you want.
 
Morgan3820 said:
Do what you want. You asked the forum, and generally did not get get the validation that you were looking for. Now you wanna argue. Do what you want.
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Are you confusing posters? That ain't the OP.
 
Roger Wilco said:
Perhaps a frame of reference can be built around this question: Would I allow my child/spouse/loved one to fly with the individual or operator at issue? If the answer is no, maybe some sort of action is worth consideration. Hell No! would definitely merit intervention.
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I’m not allowed to let that influence the outcome of a checkride. Why would it be appropriate for taking action against a pilot?
 
Roger Wilco said:
Thanks. I agree and edited my post to clarify. No one should be reported to the Feds on the basis of a rumor.
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OC59 said:
Quotes from the OP:
"We have a commercial tour operator who has been allegedly turning off his ADS-B for his flights.
...
Others think they are doing it to avoid being blamed for noise complaints (they do not abide by the 'fly friendly' agreement that other tour operators agreed to follow)."

All the people saying MYOB seem to be ignoring the *commercial* aspect of this and that it is affecting both the people around SEZ (who include a lot of rich retirees with time for complaints) and the other operators there. And as someone else pointed out, if someone *in a business* is going to some trouble to avoid being tracked, who knows what else they're up to. This doesn't read as just joe blow trying to fool around.
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At least some of the people saying MYOB are doing it because the OP apparently has no idea if any of the rumors are actually true or not. Somebody told me they think my next door neighbor probably ran a red light last week. Should I call the cops? Probably not.
 
Morgan3820 said:
Do what you want. You asked the forum, and generally did not get get the validation that you were looking for. Now you wanna argue. Do what you want.
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You are mistaken on every count. What's more, the comment you quoted was not addressed to you. Nice try.
 
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MauleSkinner said:
I’m not allowed to let that influence the outcome of a checkride. Why would it be appropriate for taking action against a pilot?
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You seem to be a knowledgeable and experienced aviator, so I assume you are asking for the sake of argument. I also assume that you know that it's not a matter of "taking action against," which we, as peers, are not empowered to do.
 
DaleB said:
At least some of the people saying MYOB are doing it because the OP apparently has no idea if any of the rumors are actually true or not. Somebody told me they think my next door neighbor probably ran a red light last week. Should I call the cops? Probably not.
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Or, since the operator obviously reads this board, leaving some ambiguity leaves an out for a libel/slander (whichever one is written) claim - even if the operator isn't specifically mentioned.
 
I think a perfectly legal way for the commercial operator to avoid identification and not turn off Adsb, if equipped and if he was actually doing that, is to get an Adsb unit that allows ANONYMOUS MODE. Then others will see that target for their collision avoidance, but not know specifically who it is.
 
Roger Wilco said:
You seem to be a knowledgeable and experienced aviator, so I assume you are asking for the sake of argument. I also assume that you know that it's not a matter of "taking action against," which we, as peers, are not empowered to do.
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I am asking because you said it would be a valid reason to do so.

How about I take out “against” and just say “take action”? I really don’t see how the action could be anything but “against”, but that term is probably not a necessity.
 
So…. Instead of all of this effort spent on an internet board, why not the OP take the N number, spend a day on Flight Aware and go through past flights and see if the signal pops out and then back in.
 
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