Commercial tour operator turning off ADS-B

MonkeyClaw

MonkeyClaw

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Sep 17, 2019
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217
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Sedona, AZ
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Display name:
Timothy Miller
We have a commercial tour operator who has been allegedly turning off his ADS-B for his flights. From what I've read, if you have ADS-B installed, you cannot intentionally turn it off. If you do, it is a violation (right Patty?).

One rumor is that they do this so their creditors cannot tell how many tours they are flying, and therefore cannot figure out what kind of income they are bringing in. Others think they are doing it to avoid being blamed for noise complaints (they do not abide by the 'fly friendly' agreement that other tour operators agreed to follow). They are no longer based out of our airport, so we can't take any administrative actions.

In any case, it seems dangerous to do this. There are several tour operators, plus other sightseers that like to fly in the area. What (if anything) can be done about this? If they are reported to the FAA, will anything happen? How would you even report them?
 
First, is ADS-B required on passenger carrying aircraft for hire? I can't find any regulations that say so. However, I haven't looked all that hard. Having said that, I would think that if the aircraft is operated outside A, B or C airspace, below 10k MSL, and outside of a mode C veil, it wouldn't matter.
 
Where’s the reg that says you can’t turn it off? The tail beacon is turned on and off by the nav lights in the Archer. If the navigation lights aren’t on, the ADSB isn’t turned on either. If I’m not in airspace that requires it, who’s to say I can’t turn it off? (Not that I do, because I have it on the entire time the engine is running.)
 
MonkeyClaw said:
We have a commercial tour operator who has been allegedly turning off his ADS-B for his flights. From what I've read, if you have ADS-B installed, you cannot intentionally turn it off. If you do, it is a violation (right Patty?).

One rumor is that they do this so their creditors cannot tell how many tours they are flying, and therefore cannot figure out what kind of income they are bringing in. Others think they are doing it to avoid being blamed for noise complaints (they do not abide by the 'fly friendly' agreement that other tour operators agreed to follow). They are no longer based out of our airport, so we can't take any administrative actions.

In any case, it seems dangerous to do this. There are several tour operators, plus other sightseers that like to fly in the area. What (if anything) can be done about this? If they are reported to the FAA, will anything happen? How would you even report them?
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You could mind your own business

Amazing we weren’t raining tour planes before ADSB…

If you do report him, make sure you put your name to it, so he knows and all the other operators know that you report people to the FAA…for “safety” of course. I mean if you honestly think you’re saving lives you shouldn’t have a issue letting everyone know you ratted this small business and their pilots out to the feds.

If it turns out he wasn’t breaking any rules hopefully he can file suit against you for any damages.
 
RyanB said:
Where’s the reg that says you can’t turn it off?
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CFR14 91.225(f).

"Except as prohibited in paragraph (i)(2) of this section, each person operating an aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out must operate this equipment in the transmit mode at all times unless..."

The 'unless' is if authorized by the FAA or directed by ATC, and (i)(2) deals with unmanned aircraft.

Nauga,
powered
 
RyanB said:
Where’s the reg that says you can’t turn it off?
Click to expand...
14 CFR 91.225(f)
Except as prohibited in paragraph (i)(2) of this section, each person operating an aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out must operate this equipment in the transmit mode at all times unless -

(1) Otherwise authorized by the FAA when the aircraft is performing a sensitive government mission for national defense, homeland security, intelligence or law enforcement purposes and transmitting would compromise the operations security of the mission or pose a safety risk to the aircraft, crew, or people and property in the air or on the ground; or

(2) Otherwise directed by ATC when transmitting would jeopardize the safe execution of air traffic control functions.
 
Thanks, that is. . . enlightening.
 
MonkeyClaw said:
What (if anything) can be done about this? If they are reported to the FAA, will anything happen? How would you even report them?
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Mind your own business. No more dangerous than the first 100 years of aviation when ADS-B didn't exist and pilots actually looked out their windows.
 
WDD said:
Martha L tour company?
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Dammit I made it to the bottom of this thread saying "Time for a Martha joke!" and you beat me to it by 18 minutes.


I'm guessing this place gives tours under bridges.
 
RyanB said:
Where’s the reg that says you can’t turn it off? The tail beacon is turned on and off by the nav lights in the Archer. If the navigation lights aren’t on, the ADSB isn’t turned on either. If I’m not in airspace that requires it, who’s to say I can’t turn it off? (Not that I do, because I have it on the entire time the engine is running.)
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Your tailbeacon installation requires a placard stating that the nav lights must be on at all times.
 
Faa has a Limiting Aircraft Data Displayed (LADD) program that blocks the ADS-B from being displayed by Flightaware and others.
Easy to do. Are you sure that the operator is actually turning off the ADS-B as opposed to having it blocked?
 
I had a similar case, but not a tour operator. It was from the place I rented from for a bit. There was a CFI who got his thrills from flying super low to the ground.
Most of the time he did it was over uncongested farm land so not a huge deal, he just still didn't want to broadcast his altitude (pretty sure the place renting it to him would have been unhappy). The hassle to me was that sometimes he forgot to turn it back on, and if you were in the plane after him and didn't check to make sure it was on, tower would flag you moments after takeoff saying you're not transmitting.
 
Floyd said:
Faa has a Limiting Aircraft Data Displayed (LADD) program that blocks the ADS-B from being displayed by Flightaware and others.
Easy to do. Are you sure that the operator is actually turning off the ADS-B as opposed to having it blocked?
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If that is the case, then the aircraft can still be tracked on adsbexchange.com, which does not block aircraft.
 
Floyd said:
Faa has a Limiting Aircraft Data Displayed (LADD) program that blocks the ADS-B from being displayed by Flightaware and others.
Easy to do. Are you sure that the operator is actually turning off the ADS-B as opposed to having it blocked?
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No

You’re still broadcasting in the clear if someone has a little knowledge
 
Lindberg said:
Your tailbeacon installation requires a placard stating that the nav lights must be on at all times.
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Not true, the 337 says “In accordance with Flight Manual Supplement a placard is placed near the position light switch with the following statement: “Position Lights Must Remain on for ADS-B Out”

It says nothing about having to be on at all times.
 
I think that means “must remain on” so that you have ADSB. Not when you want it.

In any case, you don’t have to have ADSB if you always fly in non ADSB areas. But if you have it installed you always have to have it on regardless of where you fly. Even in areas where you wouldn’t have to have it if you didn’t have it installed.

At least I think that’s what the regulations say.
 
I keep it on at all times when the airplane is running.
 
RyanB said:
Not true, the 337 says “In accordance with Flight Manual Supplement a placard is placed near the position light switch with the following statement: “Position Lights Must Remain on for ADS-B Out”

It says nothing about having to be on at all times.
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That is correct. That is what my placard said as well. You are just supposed to know the regs. Like there's no placard required to tell you to turn on the position lights at night.

It's nothing new. The same requirement exists for Mode C transponders. See the paragraph titled "Transponder-on operation". It was one of my favorite things to ask about in flight reviews. I think only one person ever got it right.
 
MonkeyClaw said:
We have a commercial tour operator who has been allegedly turning off his ADS-B for his flights. From what I've read, if you have ADS-B installed, you cannot intentionally turn it off. If you do, it is a violation (right Patty?).

One rumor is that they do this so their creditors cannot tell how many tours they are flying, and therefore cannot figure out what kind of income they are bringing in. Others think they are doing it to avoid being blamed for noise complaints (they do not abide by the 'fly friendly' agreement that other tour operators agreed to follow). They are no longer based out of our airport, so we can't take any administrative actions.

In any case, it seems dangerous to do this. There are several tour operators, plus other sightseers that like to fly in the area. What (if anything) can be done about this? If they are reported to the FAA, will anything happen? How would you even report them?
Click to expand...

What bunk. The guy is paying his bills or he isn’t. When is is delinquent enough they will repo the plane.
 
RyanB said:
Not true, the 337 says “In accordance with Flight Manual Supplement a placard is placed near the position light switch with the following statement: “Position Lights Must Remain on for ADS-B Out”

It says nothing about having to be on at all times.
Click to expand...
Keep reading.
The TSO and User and Installation guide, referenced in the STC Installation Manual (section 6.6.2) states "11 Normal Operation tailBeacon must be enabled (turned ON) during all phases of flight including surface movement operations. To ensure tailBeacon is enabled, aircraft power to the position light must remain on."
Further, the Flight Manual Supplement states in the limitations section "2.1 Navigation Lights The navigation lights must remain on at all times that ADS-B Out operation is required. The following placard should be installed: NAVIGATION LIGHTS MUST REMAIN ON FOR ADS-B OUT"

As stated by others above 14 CFR 91.225(f) requires you to transmit/operate if equipped therefore validating/affirming the TSO and User guide (via the STC Installation Manual) and Flight Manual Supplement requirements.

Don't forget the periodic checks in the Instructions for Continued Airworthiness either. I added that to my annual inspection checklist.
 
RyanB said:
Read post #22.

:)
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I did. Now you know why that is the correct action to take, you know, unless otherwise authorized by the FAA or otherwise directed by ATC :)
I just leave my NAV light switch and beacon on all the time. I figure if I forget to shut off the master and miss seeing the tailBeacon AND the "rotating" beacon after I walk away after shutdown I deserve to pay for a new battery.
 
In general I wouldn't worry about it, they'll eventually get caught...

That said, the only part that would concern me is if they are doing it to avoid the voluntary noise abaitment procedures. While it is "voluntary", if they are the source of lots of noise complaints it can make it hell for the other operators / pilots at the airport if the locals decide to start filing lawsuits against the airport and operators to force more prohibitive noise abatements or worse yet push to shut down the airport. This would affect everyone, not just the one operator.

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk
 
Legal or not a lot of people do not want to be tracked, or have the competition know how many flights this operator is making, and MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS.
 
I am a Menace To Society!
No ADSB, no Mode C, no lights, and my hand-held radio will die 30 minutes before I run out of fuel unless I shut it off and recharge it in the plane with a LiPo battery.
Can I be a tour operator?
 
I may have missed it. Is there some sort of form that needs to be filled out? I'm sure the airport manager knows, so I'll have a discussion with him. As can be seen from some of the early responses, not everyone is aware of the ADS-B requirements.

BTW - I don't know why people think it isn't any of my business? I don't like the ADS-B rules either, but that doesn't make them go away. Due to ongoing litigation, I can't say much more (this is the kind of guy who would file a slander suit at the drop of a hat, even when the facts are out there). I'm not just trying to report some rando though.
 
I'm surprised at how many people appear to be completely ignorant of the ADS-B usage regulations, it's no different than your mode-C transponder requirements that have existed since like, 1986 - If you've got it it's supposed to be on.

Now, in regards to this particular question, I'm not sure why you'd be lying awake at night worrying about this or why you'd feel obligated to report it. Have you always had a secret desire to be a policeman? On top of that there's the whole "allegedly" thing going on meaning you don't really know. If he is violating the rule he'll most likely get caught eventually, maybe he's just got a bad antenna or maybe he's just got someone who doesn't like him and wants to cause trouble. I'd stay out of it.
 
Shepherd said:
I am a Menace To Society!
No ADSB, no Mode C, no lights, and my hand-held radio will die 30 minutes before I run out of fuel unless I shut it off and recharge it in the plane with a LiPo battery.
Can I be a tour operator?
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Our 172 has no transponder or ADSB-out and a hand held as well. We do have lights. Can we still join your club?
 
question? what if your pitot static inspection is out of date? your flying in airspace where you don't need it VFR. am I correct in saying you shouldn't turn it on?
 
Shepherd said:
I am a Menace To Society!
No ADSB, no Mode C, no lights, and my hand-held radio will die 30 minutes before I run out of fuel unless I shut it off and recharge it in the plane with a LiPo battery.
Can I be a tour operator?
Click to expand...
I'd fly as your passenger...... :thumbsup:
 
Jim Kickland said:
question? what if your pitot static inspection is out of date? your flying in airspace where you don't need it VFR. am I correct in saying you shouldn't turn it on?
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Technically: logbook entry and inop placard or sticker.
 
Jim Kickland said:
question? what if your pitot static inspection is out of date? your flying in airspace where you don't need it VFR. am I correct in saying you shouldn't turn it on?
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Is there a regulatory exception for ADS-B in that situation?
 
Sounds like a good reason not to have ADSB unless you unfortunately live somewhere that legally requires it.
 
An inop ADS-B does not make the aircraft unairworthy. Just log it as inoperative and tag it as Do Not Use.
 
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