Commercial pilot requirement question about the long cross country

[BrianNC]

Here is how the reg reads:

One cross-country flight of not less than 300nm total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250nm from the original departure point

I think I'm over-thinking this and not understanding it because my 'logic' is getting in the way.

So if one point has to be a straight line distance of at least 250nm, then why the 300nm requirement, because your trip is going to be a least 500nm if you do a round-robin. I suppose if you did a straight line flight and counted it, then they're trying to make sure you go at least another 50nm during the trip with two more landings, round-robin or not?

But if I did it round-robin style, then it's definitely going to be at least a 500nm trip, correct? At the least straight out 250nm, and then back stopping at least at one more point, making a total of 3 landings when I land back at original point of departure.

And this flight is supposed to be solo, no passenger along?

Sorry for sounding so convoluted, just my brain working overtime. lol.

 

[dmspilot]

if one point has to be a straight line distance of at least 250nm, then why the 300nm requirement, because your trip is going to be a least 500nm if you do a round-robin

The 300nm requirement is used in lieu of requiring a return flight. You could conceivably save costs by driving one way and trading off with another pilot doing their commercial requirement the other direction.

I guess the FAA feels 250 miles worth of flying is not enough, but 300 is. I don't know why.

And this flight is supposed to be solo, no passenger along?

Solo.

 

[denverpilot]

Yes. We had a thread on this a few months ago. You can do the whole thing in a straight line or an "L" shape if you like, or a lollipop with a triangle top, if the airplane doesn't need to go "home" at the end. Some ratings mills might do it with a student and instructor up front and another student riding along and after 300 miles and three airports the students swap seats to get the airplane back to "home".

FAA mostly just wants to get you 250+ miles down the road where the weather is likely to change some and the scenery and airports don't look the same, it seems.

 

[BrianNC]

The 300nm requirement is used in lieu of requiring a return flight. You could conceivably save costs by driving one way and trading off with another pilot doing their commercial requirement the other direction.

I guess the FAA feels 250 miles worth of flying is not enough, but 300 is. I don't know why.

Got it. So then I am correct in assuming if a round-robin, this is going to be at least a 500nm flight? Sorry for the Captain Obvious questions. Just making sure I'm thinking right.

 

[BrianNC]

Yes. We had a thread on this a few months ago. You can do the whole thing in a straight line or an "L" shape if you like, or a lollipop with a triangle top, if the airplane doesn't need to go "home" at the end. Some ratings mills might do it with a student and instructor up front and another student riding along and after 300 miles and three airports the students swap seats to get the airplane back to "home".

FAA mostly just wants to get you 250+ miles down the road where the weather is likely to change some and the scenery and airports don't look the same, it seems.

Got it. Thanks.

 

[dmspilot]

Got it. So then I am correct in assuming if a round-robin, this is going to be at least a 500nm flight? Sorry for the Captain Obvious questions. Just making sure I'm thinking right.

If you plan on bringing the airplane back to where it came from, yes, it would be 500nm

 

[denverpilot]

Got it. So then I am correct in assuming if a round-robin, this is going to be at least a 500nm flight? Sorry for the Captain Obvious questions. Just making sure I'm thinking right.

Well, one could go the long way around the planet and it wouldn't be, but you'll probably need more fuel stops than the bare minimum standard for the Commercial ticket.

That's probably the key thing to keep in mind. The minimums are just that. Minimums. You're going to need all the flight time you can get, to actually fly for a living, so 250 miles, 300 miles, 500 miles? It's all kinda "nothing" really. You'll have thousands and thousands of miles in the logbook anyway.

No need being too hung up on the minimums or where they'll take you. They're just something to check off the list, before one can go have a nice day long chat and flight with a friendly DPE.

 

[BrianNC]

Well, one could go the long way around the planet and it wouldn't be, but you'll probably need more fuel stops than the bare minimum standard for the Commercial ticket.

That's probably the key thing to keep in mind. The minimums are just that. Minimums. You're going to need all the flight time you can get, to actually fly for a living, so 250 miles, 300 miles, 500 miles? It's all kinda "nothing" really. You'll have thousands and thousands of miles in the logbook anyway.

No need being too hung up on the minimums or where they'll take you. They're just something to check off the list, before one can go have a nice day long chat and flight with a friendly DPE.

Thanks DP.

I don't get around here on a regular basis, but I remember awhile back, it may have been several years, where it seems you were talking about training and flying full time for a period of time or something along those lines. How did that go? Do you have a thread on that journey? Unless I'm misremembering that is.

 

[asicer]

Got it. So then I am correct in assuming if a round-robin, this is going to be at least a 500nm flight? Sorry for the Captain Obvious questions. Just making sure I'm thinking right.

If you do the entire thing solo, yes. Suppose you're picking up a friend 300nm away, it would behoove you to do a touch and go at an airport 251-299nm from the start point. Similarly if you are dropping off a family member 300nm away then you should do a TnG at an airport <50nm away from home.

Edit: Actually, the way the regs are written it doesn't have to be an airport.

 

[denverpilot]

Thanks DP.

I don't get around here on a regular basis, but I remember awhile back, it may have been several years, where it seems you were talking about training and flying full time for a period of time or something along those lines. How did that go? Do you have a thread on that journey? Unless I'm misremembering that is.

Adding CFI ratings. Thread is "Official Airport Bum" and the whole thing seems to have come to a screeching halt once we finished the multiengine stuff due to scheduling and winter weather. Mostly scheduling. And mostly me waiting and trying to figure out how to get back on my CFIs calendar.

Since I bashed the savings account pretty hard and was part time at my regular job all summer (instead of the original few months planned), I'm just calling him every three days or so an seeing if the schedule will work, or alternatively calling to lament the weather just went to crap again, and then hanging up and going to the office where they pay me for playing with computers and what-not.

Honestly it's getting a little weird at this point. The office folks are asking when I'm coming back full time and they know I'm not flying, so that's awkward. CFI said maybe this coming Wednesday he'd be open to fly with me in the 182 and it looks like unflyable weather will come pounding in again. Ugh. By the next weather opening another out of town student will hit his doorstep and I'll be waiting another week.

The maintenance issues with the Sandel in the twin plus a couple of ATPs finishing up under the old rules, really really screwed his (and therefore my) schedule up bad, by pushing my multi CFI checkride out to the end of November, and therefore the SE work into winter, and literally cascaded into adding six months to this whole process overall.

I'll pick up the other thread again when something more interesting than another week cancelled is happening.

 

[bobmrg]

The 300nm requirement is used in lieu of requiring a return flight. You could conceivably save costs by driving one way and trading off with another pilot doing their commercial requirement the other direction.

I guess the FAA feels 250 miles worth of flying is not enough, but 300 is. I don't know why.



Solo.

If you dig through Opinions from the Office of the General Counsel for 2009 you will find opinions that throw cold water on this. Use Hilliard as a search argument.

Bob

 

[dmspilot]

If you dig through Opinions from the Office of the General Counsel for 2009 you will find opinions that throw cold water on this. Use Hilliard as a search argument.

Bob

You are saying that the pilot must make the return flight in order for it to count? That is ridiculous.

The Hilliard letter discusses two pilots logging cross-country time simultaneously, which has nothing to do with the what I wrote.

 

[denverpilot]

If you dig through Opinions from the Office of the General Counsel for 2009 you will find opinions that throw cold water on this. Use Hilliard as a search argument.

Bob

You are saying that the pilot must make the return flight in order for it to count? That is ridiculous.

The Hilliard letter discusses two pilots logging cross-country time simultaneously, which has nothing to do with the what I wrote.

Have to agree with @dmspilot here Bob. Hilliard and similar letters over time seemed aimed at throwing cold water on the rather dubious and dangerous practice that some shyster instructors found especially lucrative (and popular) in the 90s, where they'd put two students up front and a CFI was "instructing" from the back and like the Oprah meme, "Everyone gets to log! You get to log, she gets to log, we all get to log!" LOL.

The one that gave me the willies around here was the guy who taught initial multi students that way. Holy hell. I'm amazed someone didn't die. So are most of the old timer CFIs that remember that insanity he was doing. One guy, and he's still "around"...

 

[bobmrg]

You are saying that the pilot must make the return flight in order for it to count? That is ridiculous.

The Hilliard letter discusses two pilots logging cross-country time simultaneously, which has nothing to do with the what I wrote.

There are three Hilliard opinions...did you read all three? I'm no lawyer, but I get the sense that the OGC frowns on shortcuts around the letter of the regulation.

Bob

 

[denverpilot]

There are three Hilliard opinions...did you read all three? I'm no lawyer, but I get the sense that the OGC frowns on shortcuts around the letter of the regulation.

Bob

I'm sure they do. They're lawyers. They get paid to frown in an official way. Ha.

I've read one of them and it was a while ago. Maybe a different one than you linked. That dude asked for a lot of opinions I guess. Didn't know that.

In practice I can't imagine anyone at the local FSDO caring if a long XC was one way or round trip nor any DPE around here caring. It's a checkbox during the beginning of the meeting and a post it flag in the logbook.

Of course we all know in different places different powers that be have different pet peeves. Good to know what the local ones are. Lately around here it's been "airworthiness" including confirmation from more than one DPE that the FSDO pushed it pretty hard. Too many rides discontinued for airworthiness and aircraft paperwork issues last year. Don't know why. Just stuff that goes in waves.

 

[dmspilot]

There are three Hilliard opinions...did you read all three? I'm no lawyer, but I get the sense that the OGC frowns on shortcuts around the letter of the regulation.

Bob

Yes, I found the other letters. I do not see how they are related to the situation at all.

How is what I wrote a shortcut? The regulation requires you to fly 300 miles. It doesn't require you to come back to the original airport. Not doing so would not be a shortcut. There is no regulation or interpretation thereof saying that you have to exceed the minimum requirements; that would be silly.

 

[BrianNC]

Adding CFI ratings. Thread is "Official Airport Bum" and the whole thing seems to have come to a screeching halt once we finished the multiengine stuff due to scheduling and winter weather. Mostly scheduling. And mostly me waiting and trying to figure out how to get back on my CFIs calendar.

Since I bashed the savings account pretty hard and was part time at my regular job all summer (instead of the original few months planned), I'm just calling him every three days or so an seeing if the schedule will work, or alternatively calling to lament the weather just went to crap again, and then hanging up and going to the office where they pay me for playing with computers and what-not.

Honestly it's getting a little weird at this point. The office folks are asking when I'm coming back full time and they know I'm not flying, so that's awkward. CFI said maybe this coming Wednesday he'd be open to fly with me in the 182 and it looks like unflyable weather will come pounding in again. Ugh. By the next weather opening another out of town student will hit his doorstep and I'll be waiting another week.

The maintenance issues with the Sandel in the twin plus a couple of ATPs finishing up under the old rules, really really screwed his (and therefore my) schedule up bad, by pushing my multi CFI checkride out to the end of November, and therefore the SE work into winter, and literally cascaded into adding six months to this whole process overall.

I'll pick up the other thread again when something more interesting than another week cancelled is happening.

Thanks for the update DP. Hope it all works out.

 

[denverpilot]

Thanks for the update DP. Hope it all works out.

It was gorgeous here today and I could have taken the plane up, but I'm trying to "be good" and use the earmarked flying money for stuff that moves the needle on the goal rather than just boring holes in the sky. So I bagged on it today.

Vacation was kinda spendy, and we knew it was going to be, so I'm in that month or so long fiscal hangover period afterward where I don't want to spend anything I don't have to. I enjoy being a cheapskate but not when it makes me decide to not go flying.

Money's here. Plane's here. I'm here. Just need the CFI... the storm looks like it'll happen Tuesday and Tuesday night now, so maybe... Wednesday...

 

[RussR]

When I bought my airplane, I flew the airlines to where it was located and flew it back. It was more than 300 nm away, and I made sure I landed at three airports. Therefore, it met the experience requirements for the Commercial.

Remember, these are "aeronautical experience" requirements - not "training requirements". For the Commercial level and above, they are written with the idea that you will get many of them NOT within a training framework. In other words, you will get this experience by flying places. So, as in this requirement, you need to travel at least 300 nm total, and at least 250 nm away from home. Maybe you'll get that by flying somewhere and picking someone up, like was already mentioned. Or by traveling on business. Or any of a number of other ways. Not necessarily as an item in a checklist of things to do in the month before your checkride.

It's not a bad requirement in my mind. Actually, a similar requirement used to be in the Private Pilot requirements (I disagree with the removal of the long XC and shortening of the Private XC requirements in 1997, but that's a different issue).

 

[bobmrg]

Yes, I found the other letters. I do not see how they are related to the situation at all.

How is what I wrote a shortcut? The regulation requires you to fly 300 miles. It doesn't require you to come back to the original airport. Not doing so would not be a shortcut. There is no regulation or interpretation thereof saying that you have to exceed the minimum requirements; that would be silly.

You are looking at the wrong section of your post. It is not the guy who flies to Podunk and drives back that concerns me...it is the commercial pilot who picks up the plane and continues (begins?) his/her trip. If I were still a DE and an applicant came to me with a long-XC that begins at a strange place we are going to have a discussion about it. I'm a reasonable guy, and if the applicant has a cogent reason for this action I will listen to it. But the possibility of a pinkie is still there unless there is another logbook entry for a trip with no surprises.

Bob

 

[gasfiltered]

What difference does it make where the flight begins or ends? There is no esoteric hidden requirement. Point A to B, C, and D; what happened prior to point A is not the DPE's concern or business.

 

[Matthew]

If you fly 300 miles, drop off the plane for someone else to fly it back, would that fall under the 'for compensation or hire' rules? Delivering an airplane for someone and logging hours for compensation?

 

[BrianNC]

It's not a bad requirement in my mind. Actually, a similar requirement used to be in the Private Pilot requirements ...

If I remember correctly, way back in the day when I did my long x-cntry for my private ('86), I believe I had to fly 300nm total, as that was the requirement then wasn't it? I flew from Jonesboro GA, South Expressway airport (which is no longer there), to Eufala AL, Panama City FL, Albany GA, and back to my original airport.

 

[dmspilot]

If you fly 300 miles, drop off the plane for someone else to fly it back, would that fall under the 'for compensation or hire' rules? Delivering an airplane for someone and logging hours for compensation?

Why would it, if each pilot pays for their own flight?

 

[Matthew]

Why would it, if each pilot pays for their own flight?

dunno, paranoia? Just seems like you would ferrying an airplane for someone else.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Why would it, if each pilot pays for their own flight?

That may be Bob's concern. If you think about the potential reasons, a flight where a different pilot brings the airplane back from a remote location more likely to be a subsidized ferry than a flight paid for by the pilot.

Yeah, I guess there's no reason to think a private pilot would not say, "Sure. Fly me over to this airport 300 mm away. I'll bring that plane back and pay the rental fee too. It would be fun." But it's at least enough to merit questions, particularly on a commercial checkride where privileges and limitations are discussed.

 

[RussR]

If I remember correctly, way back in the day when I did my long x-cntry for my private ('86), I believe I had to fly 300nm total, as that was the requirement then wasn't it? I flew from Jonesboro GA, South Expressway airport (which is no longer there), to Eufala AL, Panama City FL, Albany GA, and back to my original airport.

Yes, that's it. It was 10 hours of solo XC required as well. I made 2 300-nm round-trip flights, then a 200-nm flight to meet the requirement in 1993. When I became a CFI in 2012, I was pretty surprised to learn that the current Private requirement is for only 5 hours of solo XC, and what is now called the "long" XC is only 150 nm total distance (for Part 141 it's only 100 nm!) For me, the solo XC flights were some of the best experience I got in training - on my own, far from home, getting lost and figuring it out, etc. It was very valuable and I think that value is lost with the "new" requirements.

 

[mscard88]

For me, the solo XC flights were some of the best experience I got in training - on my own, far from home, getting lost and figuring it out, etc. It was very valuable and I think that value is lost with the "new" requirements.

Memories! I did my long 300 mile XC in '75. It was fun.

 

[BrianNC]

For me, the solo XC flights were some of the best experience I got in training - on my own, far from home, getting lost and figuring it out, etc. It was very valuable and I think that value is lost with the "new" requirements.

Yeah, I actually got lost going from Panama City to Albany. I remember approach or FSS offering a 'DF steer'. Remember those? lol.

I declined and eventually found the airport.

 

[mscard88]

Yeah, I actually got lost going from Panama City to Albany. I remember approach or FSS offering a 'DF steer'. Remember those? lol.

I declined and eventually found the airport.

I started in Korea and got lost returning from Kunsan Air Base to Osan Air Base om a short solo XC! Yikes! Fortunately I managed to see a big river and found it on the chart and got back on course. I next got lost again until after I obtained my PPC in '75 on my first "real" XC from NJ to AL over north GA. Called FSS and they gave me a VOR frequency to fly to w/ the VOR on the field, Toccoa airport.

 

[bobmrg]

What difference does it make where the flight begins or ends? There is no esoteric hidden requirement. Point A to B, C, and D; what happened prior to point A is not the DPE's concern or business.

The phrase "Point of original departure" appears a couple of times in Part 61, so apparently the Feds think it makes a difference. That can be parsed in a number of ways.

If I administer 40 commercial checkrides in a year and 39 of the applicants met the long cross-country by showing a round-robin that begins and ends at the same airport and involves the same airplane but one applicant shows up with a trip that is out of the ordinary I am going to want to know more. Is the outside-the-box applicant's instructor aware of how this trip will be accomplished? Insurance for a strange plane?

Bob

 

[Matthew]

I think "point of original departure" prevents this scenario. Start at home base A, fly 150 nm east to B, then fly 300nm west to C and back to A. You got a 600 nm XC, but never got more that 150 nm from A.

 

[RussR]

The phrase "Point of original departure" appears a couple of times in Part 61, so apparently the Feds think it makes a difference. That can be parsed in a number of ways.

If I administer 40 commercial checkrides in a year and 39 of the applicants met the long cross-country by showing a round-robin that begins and ends at the same airport and involves the same airplane but one applicant shows up with a trip that is out of the ordinary I am going to want to know more. Is the outside-the-box applicant's instructor aware of how this trip will be accomplished? Insurance for a strange plane?

Bob

Bob, I really don't understand your resistance here. Do many Commercial applicants meet the XC requirement by doing an out-and-back, total 500 nm flight? Of course they do. But the rules aren't designed to require that. The rules, to me, are designed to allow for the pilot who gets the experience NOT in a training environment. That's the whole point in my view - hoping that Commercial applicants have been out there FLYING between their Private checkride and now, not just training the whole time, and not just doing this long flight 2 weeks before the checkride just to "get it done".

When I got my Commercial, the training I did for it was in one state. I already had several XC's that qualified, that were NOT round-robin, and even started and finished in other states. Are you saying that, in your mind, this raises a red flag and requires further questioning? I can think of tons of normal, everyday scenarios that could lead to a non-round-robin flight meeting the Commercial requirements.

- Bought an airplane and airlined to pick it up.
- Took a trip with the family, got stuck for weather, and went back later to pick it up alone.
- Had a mechanical issue and went back to get it.
- In a flying club, and another member had a mechanical issue and someone was needed to go get the plane back once fixed.
- Sold an airplane, delivered it to the buyer.
- Flew kid to the grandparents and came back alone.
- Flew to the grandparents alone and picked up the kid.

Need I go on?

If I can meet the XC requirement by flying AAA - BBB - CCC - DDD, then I can also meet the requirement by flying DDD - CCC - BBB - AAA. It doesn't really matter how the plane got there. If I had two Commercial students at the same time, and they wanted to do the "one fly the plane, one drive a car and then switch at DDD and come back", not only would I be aware of it, I would think it's a great idea and would help facilitate it. Not only does it save some money for them, but they also then can compare flights, weather, etc. and learn by discussing it between them.

If they came to you and you disapproved either or both of them based on that flight, I would be really curious to know exactly what part of the aeronautical experience requirements you didn't feel they met, when they each have a well-documented flight that clearly meets the requirement.

 

[AggieMike88]

Looking back at my logbook, I have a few flights that meet the distance requirement, but I didn't do the additional small leg hops.

But my question is, does this XC flight have to be done within the time frame of actually starting training and with the CFI on board?

Or is it something I could get done on my own someday by doing a PnP flight KDTO > KBGD and then add a few landings at other airports in the Texas panhandle?

And would this work? Say I did an Angel Flight that was from Ardmore to West Houston (KIWS) and did a TnG at Gainesville (KGLE) on the way to KADM, and then after dropping the passenger at KIWS, I did a TnG at KTME and returned home.

 

[RussR]

Looking back at my logbook, I have a few flights that meet the distance requirement, but I didn't do the additional small leg hops.

But my question is, does this XC flight have to be done within the time frame of actually starting training and with the CFI on board?

No. It can be done at any time after getting your Private Pilot certificate. It's an Aeronautical Experience requirement, and does not require a CFI. Actually it is required to be solo (nobody else on board), unless you're with a CFI who is going to log it appropriate as if he/she didn't actually do anything (babysitting, essentially, for insurance purposes).

Or is it something I could get done on my own someday by doing a PnP flight KDTO > KBGD and then add a few landings at other airports in the Texas panhandle?

Absolutely, that's how it's designed.

And would this work? Say I did an Angel Flight that was from Ardmore to West Houston (KIWS) and did a TnG at Gainesville (KGLE) on the way to KADM, and then after dropping the passenger at KIWS, I did a TnG at KTME and returned home.

I'm confused by what you mean, but the flight has to meet all the requirements (>250nm from point of departure, > 300nm total, 3 airports, and solo).

Edit - okay, I see what you mean. No, that wouldn't count, because you'd be breaking the flight up into two (or three) segments and wouldn't be solo for the parts that would meet the requirement. But, if after you dropped the passengers off at IWS, if you flew furhter south to say, LBX then made a T/G on the way back to DTO, that would count. Make sure you log the IWS - LBX - xxx - DTO on a separate line for clarity and identify it as being solo.

 

[AggieMike88]

Thanks @RussR !!

 

[BigBadLou]

Follow up question: when is the long commercial X/C flight required to take place? Or does it not matter?

Disregard. This has just been answered a few minutes ago (I did not refresh the page before posting my question.
Thank you.

 

[bobmrg]

An examiner conducting a commercial pilot practical test is a gatekeeper: Once the certificate is issued, the new commercial pilot can, subject to Parts 119 and 135, offer air transportation or other aviation services to the public at large. The great unwashed know nothing about his/her abilities or experience ...they just accept on faith that anyone with a commercial pilot certificate has been tested by the FAA and found qualified. Prior to getting into the airplane the DE must check the applicant's logbook(s) to be sure that all regulatory requirements have been satisfied. If there is anything in the pilot's records that is out of line with common practice it is the DE's responsibility both to the FAA and to the public at large to ask the pilot for details. As i said before, given a cogent reason I will continue with the practical...but if the applicant's answer or demeanor indicate a casual attitude toward the regulations I'm not going to be happy.

This is my last post on this subject.

Bob

 

[SbestCFII]

Here is how the reg reads:

One cross-country flight of not less than 300nm total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250nm from the original departure point

I think I'm over-thinking this and not understanding it because my 'logic' is getting in the way.

So if one point has to be a straight line distance of at least 250nm, then why the 300nm requirement, because your trip is going to be a least 500nm if you do a round-robin. I suppose if you did a straight line flight and counted it, then they're trying to make sure you go at least another 50nm during the trip with two more landings, round-robin or not?

But if I did it round-robin style, then it's definitely going to be at least a 500nm trip, correct? At the least straight out 250nm, and then back stopping at least at one more point, making a total of 3 landings when I land back at original point of departure.

And this flight is supposed to be solo, no passenger along?

Sorry for sounding so convoluted, just my brain working overtime. lol.

 

[SbestCFII]

Because whom-ever at the FAA that wrote this requirement is retarded. It is a worthless requirement, except perhaps as a bladder holding and excessive fuel-burning exercise.