Commercial long cross abort

red4golf

red4golf

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Red4Golf
Ok, I'm looking for some sort of evaluation....

I have 270+ hours and was comm check ride ready before the plane broke and life happened. Fast forward 5 years and I'm back in the air as of April. Since then I've had a flight review (WA), a checkout in a different state (FL), flew my family around Florida for a couple of hours before returning to WA to finish my CPL. Found a great group and have flown a dozen or so hours with them for fun and training. My CFI says I simply need to improve my power off 180 landing and continue to add polish to the other maneuvers. He wants me to be finished in the next 30 days or so.

I flew my long cross almost 6 years ago and only recently realized that it won't count. I understand why but I don't like it even if it was a new rule at the time and legal opinions have clarified the situation.. enough of that for now.

Today I was out with the goal of completing that x-country requirement so I can finally complete this milestone. My intent was to fly from S50 (Auburn, WA) to RBG (Roseburg, OR) and then stop at SLE (Salem, OR) for lunch with one of my employees. I planned to leave between 0800 and 0830 with an arrival at RBG 2.5 hours later, take on fuel and a little over an hour later I'd be landing in Salem for lunch. I updated my briefing when I woke up at 0600 and decided to delay my departure until between 0930 and 1000 because things weren't burning off as fast as forecast.

Prior to departure I received an update and decided to stop at Salem first, eat lunch and then go on to Roseburg before returning home. Even though I was starting late there was no time crunch because I didn't want any pressure.

I had factored in time for a diversion and identified 3 airports along the coast that were supposed to be VFR during the entire period of my flight. I have landed at 2 of these 3 before and had no issues with setting down, doing some work, and waiting. When I departed, the middle one had gone IFR. I didn't notice this until I was airborne and only knew because I was hooked up to a stratux that had been left in the plane. Now that I have flown with traffic and weather, I don't think I can ever go back!!!

I knew that I would need to use the edges of the Bravo to climb before I hit the cloud layer and that went almost exactly as planned. Instead of turning south, I angled southeast and made a nearly continuous climb before turning back to the south west. The second turn put me over the clouds but under the Bravo.

I continued the climb as the Bravo went higher until I was at 6,500 and happy as a clam.

Turning south is when things started feeling uncomfortable. The little puffy clouds that allowed for a glimpse of the ground and an escape route started closing in on each other. It wasn't long before my ability to see the ground and identify my landmarks turned into a blanket of white. Looking at the ADSB weather I saw that my destination hadn't improved, and I wasn't able to land short for lunch anymore. Things that were supposed to improve hadn't and things that had, got worse again. I turned to the coast for a diversion to Astoria. It was now IFR and so was Tillamook. Newport was still VFR but that was a long way away.

It was day VFR and the weather on top was beautiful. If I had continued, Tillamook improved by the time I would have landed but my ultimate destination didn't until roughly 5 hours after my original departure time and 3 after my actual time.

Once I saw my options fade away, I turned around. I didn't want to push my luck but I did look back later and thought maybe I could have done something different. After I made my decision to turn back I stopped worrying about my original plan and focused only on practicing maneuvers or simply getting home. There was no option to try again.

I guess what I'm beating myself up about is that I'm an Army dude that is used to completing missions regardless. I have always been a combat guy and was taught to kill 10 Russian tanks or live 2 weeks and I would be a success. Later years saw me escorting VIPs of all sorts in combat zones and their survival and mission success was vital. Looking at a day like today I can see multiple answers and I'm not sure what is the correct line of thinking.

Option 1 - do as I did and turn back because simply checking a block isn't important enough to risk being stuck or worse.
Option 2 - should have continued to expand your envelope and comfort level. (yes, not as comfortable as when I was flying regularly)
Option 3 - should have figured out how to make it work even if that meant holding or diverting and waiting. You are working on being a commercial pilot after all.

What say you?
 
I'm curious, is there a reason the flight couldn't have been completed with an instrument clearance?
 
He (currency) or the plane doesn’t meet IFR requirements?
 
Rgbeard said:
I’m sorry the ego here got sooo deep at the end that I couldn’t continue to read it.

I generally read about pilots making great and conservative ADM and being pleased with it in the end.

You’re getting commercial before instrument?
Click to expand...
Please explain... I don't understand your comments... I am instrument rated but not current as I stated.
 
red4golf said:
yes, haven't been current or proficient in years.
Click to expand...

That's what I was guessing might be the case but figured I'd ask since I don't see it mentioned in the initial post.

Given the circumstances, there isn't much a person can do except cancel the flight or wait out the weather. Schedule flexibility is an important tool when trying to take longer trips in light airplanes. I'm often not 100% certain if I'm going on a trip until I'm driving to the airport.
 
red4golf said:
exactly. I am rated but not current.
Click to expand...

I don’t want to pee on you parade, but an FAA chief council’s opinion may require you to get a few hours of additional instrument depending on how your IR training was logged.
 
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You're back home alive vs dead or getting a phone number to call after telling ATC you're stuck on top. I'm just a lowly PPL. I'm always surprised by how long it takes me to make that decision to abort.

Had one last summer. It was just 15 miles of IFR to destination after flying about 250miles. Has a passenger. The best abort airport was 90 miles behind me. I think it took me 20 miles (10 minutes) to turn back.

Would you still consider options 2 or 3 if you had a passenger?

I'm guessing 80% of the time commercial pilots have a second crew member, both IFR current and all the necessary equipment on board so your situation isn't really apples to apples.
 
This thread is an excellent example of why the long cross country flight is a 61.129 aeronautical experience requirement for the commercial pilot certificate. It forces you to make go no-go decisions over longer periods of time and larger areas of consideration. There is no single correct answer.
 
Sounds like your decision to turn back, your Option 1, was a good, rational, "Commercial Pilot" level decision. Keep making choices like that, and you'll enjoy a long, safe career (and life!)
Certainly, as your experience and skill level increases with more hours, greater weather knowledge, etc., your personal minimums and go-no go threshold will change, but being able to make the choice to turn back, or abort the mission, or, cancel the whole thing prior to departure, is one of the more important tools in a pro pilot's toolbox. Yes, there may be pressure from your employer (airline, freight, corporate, doesn't matter) to complete the mission, but, if you've got a good employer, they'll rely on you to keep things safe, and/or think ahead to provide a plan B, etc.
 
Short answer is you're back on terra firma and alive to fight another day. You have the advantage of hindsight at the moment so the what if's are kind of pointless. You had to make a decision based on the facts at hand. What if the weather had continued to worsen? As mentioned already, countless lives have been lost to people pressing on...VFR into IMC, spatial disorientation, CFIT, etc.

That being said, it's probably a good time to do a gut check on your training. Current and proficient on instruments would be at the top of my list. Perhaps brush up on WX theory and newly available flight planning resources you may be unfamiliar with given your 5 year break.

Take this for the learning opportunity that it was and grow from it. As the saying goes, far better to be on the ground wishing to be in the air vs the other way around. Good luck with your training.

David
 
red4golf said:
I guess what I'm beating myself up about is that I'm an Army dude that is used to completing missions regardless.
Click to expand...

I think this is why I bristle a little when you hear GA pilots refer to their "mission" (like when buying a new plane, defining their "mission"). As former military myself, "mission" has a whole separate meaning, up to and including "if you don't complete this task (flight, whatever), people will die". I would suggest that out of all the GA flight activities, the only ones that really rise to the level of a "mission" in my mind are MEDEVAC flights, organ transplants, fire bombers, and maybe a few others. Note that these activities also carry a higher mishap rate (I suspect - no figures here). Definitely NOT pancake breakfasts. "My mission is to fly my wife and I to pancake breakfasts" is not a "mission" in my eyes.

So, don't think of your GA flights as "missions" and you won't feel bad if you don't complete them. There's no life-and-death situation hinging on you flying that Commercial XC flight. In fact, you made the right decision. Your "mission" in any GA flight is to still be alive at the end of the day, and you accomplished that.

I flew my long cross almost 6 years ago and only recently realized that it won't count. I understand why but I don't like it even if it was a new rule at the time and legal opinions have clarified the situation.. enough of that for now.
Click to expand...

I'm curious, I don't remember the Commercial XC rule changing any time recently. Which particular of the rule got you? The one I see most often is the "solo" requirement, but I'm pretty sure that's been there since 1997.
 
RussR said:
So, don't think of your GA flights as "missions" and you won't feel bad if you don't complete them. There's no life-and-death situation hinging on you flying that Commercial XC flight. In fact, you made the right decision. Your "mission" in any GA flight is to still be alive at the end of the day, and you accomplished that.
Click to expand...
Was about to say something similar. Except maybe use the word "purpose" instead of mission. That takes a lot of tension away right there. And always remember the first imperative: do not endanger yourself or others needlessly. RussR has eloquently described the scenarios wherein you voluntarily assume increased risk. And even if you're in one of those, consistently apply the first imperative.
 
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red4golf said:
Ok, I'm looking for some sort of evaluation....

I have 270+ hours and was comm check ride ready before the plane broke and life happened. Fast forward 5 years and I'm back in the air as of April. Since then I've had a flight review (WA), a checkout in a different state (FL), flew my family around Florida for a couple of hours before returning to WA to finish my CPL. Found a great group and have flown a dozen or so hours with them for fun and training. My CFI says I simply need to improve my power off 180 landing and continue to add polish to the other maneuvers. He wants me to be finished in the next 30 days or so.

I flew my long cross almost 6 years ago and only recently realized that it won't count. I understand why but I don't like it even if it was a new rule at the time and legal opinions have clarified the situation.. enough of that for now.

Today I was out with the goal of completing that x-country requirement so I can finally complete this milestone. My intent was to fly from S50 (Auburn, WA) to RBG (Roseburg, OR) and then stop at SLE (Salem, OR) for lunch with one of my employees. I planned to leave between 0800 and 0830 with an arrival at RBG 2.5 hours later, take on fuel and a little over an hour later I'd be landing in Salem for lunch. I updated my briefing when I woke up at 0600 and decided to delay my departure until between 0930 and 1000 because things weren't burning off as fast as forecast.

Prior to departure I received an update and decided to stop at Salem first, eat lunch and then go on to Roseburg before returning home. Even though I was starting late there was no time crunch because I didn't want any pressure.

I had factored in time for a diversion and identified 3 airports along the coast that were supposed to be VFR during the entire period of my flight. I have landed at 2 of these 3 before and had no issues with setting down, doing some work, and waiting. When I departed, the middle one had gone IFR. I didn't notice this until I was airborne and only knew because I was hooked up to a stratux that had been left in the plane. Now that I have flown with traffic and weather, I don't think I can ever go back!!!

I knew that I would need to use the edges of the Bravo to climb before I hit the cloud layer and that went almost exactly as planned. Instead of turning south, I angled southeast and made a nearly continuous climb before turning back to the south west. The second turn put me over the clouds but under the Bravo.

I continued the climb as the Bravo went higher until I was at 6,500 and happy as a clam.

Turning south is when things started feeling uncomfortable. The little puffy clouds that allowed for a glimpse of the ground and an escape route started closing in on each other. It wasn't long before my ability to see the ground and identify my landmarks turned into a blanket of white. Looking at the ADSB weather I saw that my destination hadn't improved, and I wasn't able to land short for lunch anymore. Things that were supposed to improve hadn't and things that had, got worse again. I turned to the coast for a diversion to Astoria. It was now IFR and so was Tillamook. Newport was still VFR but that was a long way away.

It was day VFR and the weather on top was beautiful. If I had continued, Tillamook improved by the time I would have landed but my ultimate destination didn't until roughly 5 hours after my original departure time and 3 after my actual time.

Once I saw my options fade away, I turned around. I didn't want to push my luck but I did look back later and thought maybe I could have done something different. After I made my decision to turn back I stopped worrying about my original plan and focused only on practicing maneuvers or simply getting home. There was no option to try again.

I guess what I'm beating myself up about is that I'm an Army dude that is used to completing missions regardless. I have always been a combat guy and was taught to kill 10 Russian tanks or live 2 weeks and I would be a success. Later years saw me escorting VIPs of all sorts in combat zones and their survival and mission success was vital. Looking at a day like today I can see multiple answers and I'm not sure what is the correct line of thinking.

Option 1 - do as I did and turn back because simply checking a block isn't important enough to risk being stuck or worse.
Option 2 - should have continued to expand your envelope and comfort level. (yes, not as comfortable as when I was flying regularly)
Option 3 - should have figured out how to make it work even if that meant holding or diverting and waiting. You are working on being a commercial pilot after all.

What say you?
Click to expand...
Option 1. The simple fact that you are wondering about it and asking the question makes it the right answer. Good job doing what you did and telling us about it rather than we would be reading about you rather than from you.
 
RussR said:
I think this is why I bristle a little when you hear GA pilots refer to their "mission" (like when buying a new plane, defining their "mission"). As former military myself, "mission" has a whole separate meaning, up to and including "if you don't complete this task (flight, whatever), people will die". I would suggest that out of all the GA flight activities, the only ones that really rise to the level of a "mission" in my mind are MEDEVAC flights, organ transplants, fire bombers, and maybe a few others. Note that these activities also carry a higher mishap rate (I suspect - no figures here). Definitely NOT pancake breakfasts. "My mission is to fly my wife and I to pancake breakfasts" is not a "mission" in my eyes.

So, don't think of your GA flights as "missions" and you won't feel bad if you don't complete them. There's no life-and-death situation hinging on you flying that Commercial XC flight. In fact, you made the right decision. Your "mission" in any GA flight is to still be alive at the end of the day, and you accomplished that.



I'm curious, I don't remember the Commercial XC rule changing any time recently. Which particular of the rule got you? The one I see most often is the "solo" requirement, but I'm pretty sure that's been there since 1997.
Click to expand...


This is exactly why I asked for feedback. I'm trying to remove the "mission" mindset that I've had for over 20 years. I'm retired and don't really need it anymore, not to that level at least. What I was pondering was that maybe I was going too far the other direction and not trying to find a way to make it work. Definitely not in the let's pull into a random base and wait out the sandstorm for 3 days while living in our truck kind of thing but maybe I could have or should have investigated a little more... Either way, I figure talking it out on the ground is the best option.

The change I was referring to was in regards to the ability to have a CFI onboard. I know this was geared more for the multi training and due to insurance reasons but isn't limited specifically multi. I had a CFI with me because the engine was new and hadn't gone through the break in process. He was along to simply make sure I didn't harm the new baby.. Unfortunately, it was recorded as dual and opinion letters have come out saying that any dual given makes it void. That is my understanding at least.
 
thinice said:
Short answer is you're back on terra firma and alive to fight another day. You have the advantage of hindsight at the moment so the what if's are kind of pointless. You had to make a decision based on the facts at hand. What if the weather had continued to worsen? As mentioned already, countless lives have been lost to people pressing on...VFR into IMC, spatial disorientation, CFIT, etc.

That being said, it's probably a good time to do a gut check on your training. Current and proficient on instruments would be at the top of my list. Perhaps brush up on WX theory and newly available flight planning resources you may be unfamiliar with given your 5 year break.

Take this for the learning opportunity that it was and grow from it. As the saying goes, far better to be on the ground wishing to be in the air vs the other way around. Good luck with your training.

David
Click to expand...

That's exactly how I feel about it but it is nice to have it backed up. I wasn't worried about the IFR work because I was simply using the brush up on my CPL training to get back into flying. Not to mention that is has been severe clear all summer. Too bad work and MX delayed things allowing the traditional Pacific Northwest fall to set in. ;) Yes, my IPC is planned and would have eliminated some hassle in this instance.
 
Clip4 said:
I don’t want to pee on you parade, but an FAA chief council’s opinion may require you to get a few hours of additional instrument depending on how your IR training was logged.
Click to expand...
I get that and will be doing a logbook audit this weekend to make sure everything else is accounted for. If I remember correctly, my old CFI was trying to log things to the specific FAR but I need to check. Thanks for mentioning that as I would hate for it to come up when the DPE is looking things over...
 
red4golf said:
I guess what I'm beating myself up about is that I'm an Army dude that is used to completing missions regardless. I have always been a combat guy and was taught to kill 10 Russian tanks or live 2 weeks and I would be a success. Later years saw me escorting VIPs of all sorts in combat zones and their survival and mission success was vital. Looking at a day like today I can see multiple answers and I'm not sure what is the correct line of thinking.
Click to expand...

I think you need to try to get out of this line of thinking. Commercial flying and recreational flying here in the US is never life or death unless the pilot makes it life or death him/herself, or as mentioned above medevac. It will NEVER be a mistake or "failure" to cancel a flight. Disappointing/frustrating, costly in terms of $ and time, sure. But none of that is worth putting your life or others at needless risk trying to force a mission to be "completed" or a "success."

Making a no-go decision in questionable conditions is a successful mission.
 
T Bird said:
I think you need to try to get out of this line of thinking. Commercial flying and recreational flying here in the US is never life or death unless the pilot makes it life or death him/herself, or as mentioned above medevac. It will NEVER be a mistake or "failure" to cancel a flight. Disappointing/frustrating, costly in terms of $ and time, sure. But none of that is worth putting your life or others at needless risk trying to force a mission to be "completed" or a "success."

Making a no-go decision in questionable conditions is a successful mission.
Click to expand...

That is exactly what I am trying to do. My experience escorting people tells me that I shouldn't care about anything but keeping them safe regardless of their opinion of my decisions. I think that would apply to any flying job I could have. I guess I'm just trying to figure out what is expected at the professional level. I know that if I'm flying my family I'm going home once it becomes questionable.
 
Clip4 said:
I don’t want to pee on you parade, but an FAA chief council’s opinion may require you to get a few hours of additional instrument depending on how your IR training was logged.
Click to expand...

Could you explain this more? Maybe cite the opinion? I don't see anything in the regs requiring recent instrument training or currency. Thanks.
 
red4golf said:
The change I was referring to was in regards to the ability to have a CFI onboard. I know this was geared more for the multi training and due to insurance reasons but isn't limited specifically multi. I had a CFI with me because the engine was new and hadn't gone through the break in process. He was along to simply make sure I didn't harm the new baby.. Unfortunately, it was recorded as dual and opinion letters have come out saying that any dual given makes it void. That is my understanding at least.
Click to expand...

Well, shoot, did he mean to log it as dual? Maybe he can correct the log? But, I'm not sure that 6 years ago, the regs allowed an instructor aboard so it may all be pointless anyways. Someone can chime in here.
 
noahfong said:
Well, shoot, did he mean to log it as dual? Maybe he can correct the log? But, I'm not sure that 6 years ago, the regs allowed an instructor aboard so it may all be pointless anyways. Someone can chime in here.
Click to expand...

It was allowed back then but it was relatively new and often misunderstood.
 
I'm not a military person (thanks for your service, by the way) but it seems to me like your mission is to get your commercial rating. Definitely stick with that one. You probably got more training benefit out of this flight than lots of others you've done. Unfortunately, you get to go fly more! :)
 
My commercial cross country qualifying flight was an all-night IFR ordeal with legs in three different states. I encountered icing, mountains, unforecast headwinds and long, boring legs that leveraged my exhaustion with sleep deprivation. I was in the clouds for most of several hours (maybe 6 or 8?) and there was no way the flight could have been completed under VFR rules.

I survived and did indeed learn some valuable lessons about completing the mission versus risk management. Let's just say I wouldn't do it again...

The new regs would have made it easier, for sure!
 
noahfong said:
Could you explain this more? Maybe cite the opinion? I don't see anything in the regs requiring recent instrument training or currency. Thanks.
Click to expand...
Just make sure that the instrument training tasks required for the commercial training are listed in your instrument training so you don’t have to do more instrument training.
 
Sam D said:
I'm not a military person (thanks for your service, by the way) but it seems to me like your mission is to get your commercial rating. Definitely stick with that one. You probably got more training benefit out of this flight than lots of others you've done. Unfortunately, you get to go fly more! :)
Click to expand...
heaven forbid!!! fly more? Say it aint so! lol..
 
IK04 said:
My commercial cross country qualifying flight was an all-night IFR ordeal with legs in three different states. I encountered icing, mountains, unforecast headwinds and long, boring legs that leveraged my exhaustion with sleep deprivation. I was in the clouds for most of several hours (maybe 6 or 8?) and there was no way the flight could have been completed under VFR rules.

I survived and did indeed learn some valuable lessons about completing the mission versus risk management. Let's just say I wouldn't do it again...

The new regs would have made it easier, for sure!
Click to expand...

That makes it sound like every flight after that would be simple..
 
Your mission is to make it home in one piece so your family can enjoy having you around. Yes, that cuts against the “get the job done” mindset, but a VFR pilot in the Pacific Northwest - or anywhere for that matter - has to work with what Mother Nature gives them. It’s damn tough to do if you’ve got to fold your cards and head for the barn, but it’s the right call, and you made it.
I’m a pretty new instrument pilot and that is no magic wand either - you still have limitations, and cannot do everything.

Oh, and never count on KONP going, or staying, VFR - that’s a fools errand in my experience.
 
Tedric said:
Your mission is to make it home in one piece so your family can enjoy having you around. Yes, that cuts against the “get the job done” mindset, but a VFR pilot in the Pacific Northwest - or anywhere for that matter - has to work with what Mother Nature gives them. It’s damn tough to do if you’ve got to fold your cards and head for the barn, but it’s the right call, and you made it.
I’m a pretty new instrument pilot and that is no magic wand either - you still have limitations, and cannot do everything.

Oh, and never count on KONP going, or staying, VFR - that’s a fools errand in my experience.
Click to expand...

lol.... KONP is where I'm headed tomorrow. The wife is sending my youngest with a friend and I hope to meet them at the aquarium. If I can't, he gets a trip and my wife gets to work without distraction. Win, win all around.
 
:) I'm not military, but I've watched some friends make the transition from military to civilian career. Something I picked up from one of the service shooting teams was that you can't not do something. Or in other words, it's very difficult replace a habit with a fuzzy concept of "just not doing it". Trained people don't work that way.

So I'll suggest this. You have a new mission. That mission is "get home to the family safe and sound every day". Job one. That's what you need to do when flying, everything else is a secondary task to be completed if reasonable. Glad you turned around. As you say, the paperwork can wait.
 
Adding a thought - to do a mission, you must be prepared. The pilot was not ready, you knew it and you made a wise choice.

so learn. Go get IFR current again and then get really proficient. You identified a weakness in your training, go fix that weakness.
 
TAF at KONP looking good for this afternoon …. (Why does this make me picture Lucy and Charlie Brown and the football?? :D)
 
MauleSkinner said:
Just make sure that the instrument training tasks required for the commercial training are listed in your instrument training so you don’t have to do more instrument training.
Click to expand...

Yes, thanks. That has become a big deal.
 
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