Commercial & Instrument Training in a twin??

Skydreamer2015

Skydreamer2015

Pre-Flight
Joined
Feb 10, 2015
Messages
59
Display Name
Display name:
Skydreamer2015
I wanted to see how many of you did your commercial training and/or instrument training in a twin? Would you recommend it? I'm being told by an instructor that I'm considering in using for my commercial & instrument training that he recommends doing it all in a twin. He says in the end it becomes a wash as far as cost if I want my multi rating as well. He says kill 2 birds with one stone. What's everyone's thoughts & opinions? Thanks!
 
I did not, but I considered doing it for various reasons. (I did do my initial CFI in a twin and I think there is a very compelling case for doing that, but the same reasoning doesn't apply to commercial and instrument)
If cost is the primary concern, you should be able to look at the numbers yourself and see how it comes out. I'm somewhat doubtful that it is a wash cost wise. That doesn't mean there might not be a benefit. It depends a lot on your goals and where you are at experience wise.

Is this instructor planning to be an airline pilot some day and currently teaching until he gets hired?
 
What are you gonna be flying? If you are just gonna be in a single it is a toss up. If you are gonna be flying a twin, go for the twin time right outta the gate.

Some seem to have the approch to take the past path of least resistance and get your ratings as easily as possible. I am in the camp of training in what you will be flying.

My $.02 anyway.
 
Doing it now. It's fun. I doubt it saves any real money but you'll need all the twin time you can get for flying them later anyway... If you're gonna do that.
 
There is no way that the cost would be a wash if you did both in a twin. I would wager that you couldn't do a commercial initial in a twin for near the cost either. The fact that you would have to do the commercial XCs in a multi makes it pretty expensive. I would like to see how it's a wash if I'm wrong though. Did your instructor use ATP for his flight training by chance ?
 
What's your end game here?

Your first job ain't going to be flying a twin, and once you have your ATP hours, if you are wanting to go into a regional they don't give a hoot about anything other than if you qualify for a ATP, beggers not being choosers and all.

I'd find the least expensive plane you can to do all this in, the biggest hold back for many fresh CPLs is not multi time, its debt time! Not having a huge monthly bill will allow you to take jobs, take risks, move places, all of which will put you way further ahead than having a extra 50hr multi or whatever.

Also there is no way it's a wash, a C150 goes for like 80hr, multis are nearly always over 200hr, the math just ain't adding up for it being a wash.
 
James331 said:
...the biggest hold back for many fresh CPLs is not multi time, its debt time!

...

Also there is no way it's a wash, a C150 goes for like 80hr, multis are nearly always over 200hr, the math just ain't adding up for it being a wash.
Click to expand...

The debt thing is a good point. I'm paying as I go from savings for this. I'd never do this with loan money, ever ever ever.

Around here, nobody's flying 150s, so it's kinda closer to a wash. 150 is a total dog at this altitude. I love flying them, and did during my Private long long ago... In the dead of winter.

We'll do the initial in the Seminole, and then the single add on in my 182... which means very little time needed in my airplane to prep, I already fly it pretty well. Prep the maneuvers and do a check ride and it's done. At that point the "hard" stuff for me will be long over with... Since I needed several hours just to get used to the Seminole anyway, the XCs and the 10 night landings were good for me anyway.

We bopped up to Rapid City for one, and returned at night, and then did a "tour" of three local airports and did full stop taxi backs at all three for the rest of the night thing. Easy to combine stuff. Two flights. All requirements completed. Of course I already have boatloads of other time to meet all the other stuff, too.

So yeah, analyze the requirements before hopping in the twin. It does gobble cash at a pretty good clip. And if you don't have the cash, be extra cautious, as James says. Know what and why you're flying each flight for.

It's best to condense as much as possible into each one. Ask the CFI what their plan is for that. If they don't ask first for your logbook and then show a plan that combines things, run away. They want twin time and you're their ticket. I'm using an instructor who definitely isn't a time builder. He started his commercial career in DC-2s and retired from the DC-10 left seat. All he does is advanced ratings if be can help it.
 
denverpilot said:
The debt thing is a good point. I'm paying as I go from savings for this. I'd never do this with loan money, ever ever ever.
Click to expand...

Even better for those who have some free time is to work at the airport and trade some labor for instruction. You'll learn a lot more and meet a lot more people doing it that way, and that's a good thing if a person is wanting a career in aviation.

denverpilot said:
We'll do the initial in the Seminole, and then the single add on in my 182... which means very little time needed in my airplane to prep, I already fly it pretty well. Prep the maneuvers and do a check ride and it's done. At that point the "hard" stuff for me will be long over with... Since I needed several hours just to get used to the Seminole anyway, the XCs and the 10 night landings were good for me anyway.
Click to expand...

I'd bet you don't save that much time doing the SE add on vs. doing the SE initial. Even for guys having zero complex time I have been successful at getting them ready for a SE initial in minimal time. Most of the time I've seen people pushing an initial multi first is because there is no SE complex airplane available.
 
I knew a flight school guy that had a bunch of kids from India he was training. They did their commercial in the twin, and then did the ASEL as an add-on. Made sense, since they needed multi time and he did not have a SE Complex.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
 
mondtster said:
I'd bet you don't save that much time doing the SE add on vs. doing the SE initial. Even for guys having zero complex time I have been successful at getting them ready for a SE initial in minimal time. Most of the time I've seen people pushing an initial multi first is because there is no SE complex airplane available.
Click to expand...

Yep. I've never claimed it would be cheaper. Just not that much more expensive overall, and I don't mind the extra twin time in my particular circumstances. (I've already joked with a friend offline that it'll probably be the last time I fly a twin for a good long while anyway...) It's just "a way to do it".
 
ArnoldPalmer said:
I knew a flight school guy that had a bunch of kids from India he was training. They did their commercial in the twin, and then did the ASEL as an add-on. Made sense, since they needed multi time and he did not have a SE Complex.
Click to expand...

That multi time working on the commercial rating has some value, but it is of minimal value since it is not pic time. If the goal is to get the MEI, you need 15 hours PIC prior to taking the checkride anyway so I'd do the comm multi add on then build the time afterward so you can log PIC and work toward the MEI rating. That way you'd be able to minimize the amount of multi time that was not PIC. I think it would be money better spent, unless you have plenty of money to spend on ratings.
 
Did my Instrument in my own twin. Good thing is you don't have to do two check rides - the ME IR is also good for SE. With DPE check ride fee's of $800 here in LA, plus the rentals etc, you're at least saving $1500 right there.
 
NJP_MAN said:
There is no way that the cost would be a wash if you did both in a twin. I would wager that you couldn't do a commercial initial in a twin for near the cost either. The fact that you would have to do the commercial XCs in a multi makes it pretty expensive. I would like to see how it's a wash if I'm wrong though. Did your instructor use ATP for his flight training by chance ?
Click to expand...

I failed to mention that I already meet all the requirements for the commercial. I have over 250 hours with required cross country, complex & night & etc

No on the ATP.
 
James331 said:
What's your end game here?

Your first job ain't going to be flying a twin, and once you have your ATP hours, if you are wanting to go into a regional they don't give a hoot about anything other than if you qualify for a ATP, beggers not being choosers and all.

I'd find the least expensive plane you can to do all this in, the biggest hold back for many fresh CPLs is not multi time, its debt time! Not having a huge monthly bill will allow you to take jobs, take risks, move places, all of which will put you way further ahead than having a extra 50hr multi or whatever.

Also there is no way it's a wash, a C150 goes for like 80hr, multis are nearly always over 200hr, the math just ain't adding up for it being a wash.
Click to expand...

To be honest, I don't know what I want my first job to be, but I have always wanted to do fixed wing air ambulance.

I have the money saved & have zero plans of having to borrow any money.
 
mondtster said:
Even better for those who have some free time is to work at the airport and trade some labor for instruction. You'll learn a lot more and meet a lot more people doing it that way, and that's a good thing if a person is wanting a career in aviation.
Click to expand...

Boy! If you know of anyone along the Front Range of Colorado that is looking for a airplane washer or looking for any other help in trade for instruction, please LET ME KNOW! I have been looking!!!
 
Skydreamer2015 said:
Boy! If you know of anyone along the Front Range of Colorado that is looking for a airplane washer or looking for any other help in trade for instruction, please LET ME KNOW! I have been looking!!!
Click to expand...

Haha I doubt it. We have a healthy enough aviation economy and an endless supply of Metro State students who'll work in anything in "aviation" for peanuts.

Which isn't a bad thing, per se, but volunteer stuff isn't much needed around here, or I've never seen it in 44 years.

But if you're looking for peanuts, the belly of the 182 needs a good scrub. Hehehe.
 
Skydreamer2015 said:
To be honest, I don't know what I want my first job to be, but I have always wanted to do fixed wing air ambulance.

I have the money saved & have zero plans of having to borrow any money.
Click to expand...

Medevac is probably more like your third job, most have minimums beyond that of the airlines, that said, between the mission and the types of folks you work with, it's well worth it
 
James331 said:
Medevac is probably more like your third job, most have minimums beyond that of the airlines, that said, between the mission and the types of folks you work with, it's well worth it
Click to expand...

Oops! Forgot to say that my end goal in air ambulance. :) I imagine my first job will be like most...instructing, jumpers, banner towing & etc
 
Skydreamer2015 said:
To be honest, I don't know what I want my first job to be, but I have always wanted to do fixed wing air ambulance.

I have the money saved & have zero plans of having to borrow any money.
Click to expand...

Well, if air ambulance is what you'd like to shoot for, here's what American MedFlight looks for out here in Reno. They are currently flying Cheyennes, but will be transitioning to King Air's in the near future.

"In order to qualify for this position, we require an ATP certificate, 3000 hours of TT, significant ME turbo-prop experience, and strong single-pilot IFR skills. Successful candidates will have the ability to fly non-radar, pilot-nav approaches to small airports and need to be highly proficient, team-players adept to working in a fast-paced environment. Part 135 and air-ambulance experience is highly desirable."

http://americanmedflight.com/Job Openings.shtml

Cheers,
Brian
 
denverpilot said:
Haha I doubt it. We have a healthy enough aviation economy and an endless supply of Metro State students who'll work in anything in "aviation" for peanuts.

Which isn't a bad thing, per se, but volunteer stuff isn't much needed around here, or I've never seen it in 44 years.

But if you're looking for peanuts, the belly of the 182 needs a good scrub. Hehehe.
Click to expand...

I am finding that to be true! We are new to the Front Range & I am pretty confident anywhere you go that the days of trading labor for instruction is long gone with the days of yore. :)
 
Skydreamer2015 said:
I am finding that to be true! We are new to the Front Range & I am pretty confident anywhere you go that the days of trading labor for instruction is long gone with the days of yore. :)
Click to expand...

Not saying some of these rental companies shouldn't be doing it. Their airplanes need a bath really bad and they never wash most of them. The leasebacks get washed once in a while when the owner gets bored I think, but that's about it. :)
 
denverpilot said:
Not saying some of these rental companies shouldn't be doing it. Their airplanes need a bath really bad and they never wash most of them. The leasebacks get washed once in a while when the owner gets bored I think, but that's about it. :)
Click to expand...

I guess I need to convince them that I have a great deal for them :)
 
I did my multi and commercial combined, so i did my commercial in a twin before a single. main reason I did it was more multi time, and with 50 being required for an AMEL ATP I wanted to get as close to it as possible. it also eliminated me having to fly a complex single for my single commercial so it actually saved me money by allowing me to combine my multi and commercial into one training and check ride, and eliminate the complex stuff in the single
 
flight2000 said:
Well, if air ambulance is what you'd like to shoot for, here's what American MedFlight looks for out here in Reno. They are currently flying Cheyennes, but will be transitioning to King Air's in the near future.

"In order to qualify for this position, we require an ATP certificate, 3000 hours of TT, significant ME turbo-prop experience, and strong single-pilot IFR skills. Successful candidates will have the ability to fly non-radar, pilot-nav approaches to small airports and need to be highly proficient, team-players adept to working in a fast-paced environment. Part 135 and air-ambulance experience is highly desirable."

http://americanmedflight.com/Job Openings.shtml

Cheers,
Brian
Click to expand...


Man the pilots are kinda d1cked over compared the the RNs

Flying a tiny twin, poorly suited for medevac ops

Pilots make 30% less,

No profit sharing

No pension

Just 401k....after one year, which they have to contribute into out of their measly lower pay

and the company encourages pilots to work with half the time off for a additional table scrap of 10k

... and their minimums are above that of many MAJOR airlines


tumblr_nrdkp3Nkit1qg51mgo1_500.gif
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top