Comments on this M20J???

[Bill]

This one is in CT, so it would require airline travel to go and visit. We callled, and the broker offered this additional information:

He said the engine was rebuilt about 2 years ago.
Interior 2005
Paint Original (needs paint)
Hangered – No
Damage History – He thinks it had a gear up 10 – 12 years ago
Prop – 2 Bladed
The individual that owns it (retired cop CFII) really can’t afford it. He had it sold for more than it is listed for about 6 months ago but the buyer couldn’t get the funds. He dropped previous asking to the current price and has had it for sale for about a month.

It looks like it needs paint, but the avionics are decent, and has a 2 year/290 hour motor. If a pre-buy proved out, it could be a good value. Pictures in the zip file.

We've sent an additional email asking about prop times, last corrosion inspection, last tank seal.

1977

Mooney 201/M20J 4990 290 Danbury CT $79,900 Remove from Favorites
View/Edit Notes
1977 MOONEY 201, 4990-TT, 290-SMOH, Garmin 430 GPS, King KX155 NavCom, WX10A stormscope, STEC 30 coupled AP w/altitude hold, ADF, DME, txp, encoder, intercom, fresh annual. $79,900 firm. CT/(203) 748-1449.

 

[HPNFlyGirl]

Uh Bill are you sure you want to buy a plane with a NO FEAR sticker in the cockpit?

 

[Bill]

Uh Bill are you sure you want to buy a plane with a NO FEAR sticker in the cockpit?

THAT would have to go.

 

[NC Pilot]

Looks OK, but definately not pampered. Several things that bother me from your description. One - Thinks it had a gear up 10-12 years ago? This should be clear in the logbooks, or they were fudged and the damage hidden. Second, Really cannot afford the plane. So, what has been scrimped on or overlooked while he has owned the plane. How much has it flown during his ownership of the plane.

While the price is attractive, I would want a very thorough pre buy performed on this plane by an A&P I know and trust.

Just my $.02.

 

[Bill]

While the price is attractive, I would want a very thorough pre buy performed on this plane by an A&P I know and trust.

Absolutely!

 

[Bill]

Second, Really cannot afford the plane. So, what has been scrimped on or overlooked while he has owned the plane.

That is hard to quantify without investigation. "Cannot really afford the plane" could mean he's been skimping on mx. OTOH, it has recent interior and engine, and decent (430+S-tec 30+strikefinder) avionics.

Could be he skimped. Could be he bought a new engine, interior, and avionics, and busted the bank account. Can't tell without investigation.

 

[tonycondon]

and if the engine is 2 yrs old with 290 hrs, i suspect it has been flown regularly.

 

[Bill]

and if the engine is 2 yrs old with 290 hrs, i suspect it has been flown regularly.

One other question I've asked is if the CFII owner used the plane for commercial training.

 

[flyersfan31]

Can you get copies of the logs (for a small fee, of course)? The brokers comments seem to be a little inconsistent (go figure). Cant afford to fly, but 290 on a new engine, new stormscope, etc? Interior looks well done, that exterior is pretty tired.

Sorry for lack of proper punctuation. Keyboard is freaking out when I hit the apostrophe.

 

[Anthony]

I've been casually looking at M20J's for the past year or so and it seems a decent one usually costs over $100K, more like $130K with good avionics.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

What's with the sticker on the panel about only operating the DME in the air, not on the ground? I don't recall ever seeing that before, or reading about systems that required it. Radar, yes. DME, no... ideas?

 

[tonycondon]

I seem to remember reading something during private or commercial ground school about how DME usage from any one VOR/DME is actually limited to a certain number of users, and it was recommended that if you were on the ground that you turn off your DME so that it isnt wasting an reply on you.

 

[Bill]

I seem to remember reading something during private or commercial ground school about how DME usage from any one VOR/DME is actually limited to a certain number of users, and it was recommended that if you were on the ground that you turn off your DME so that it isnt wasting an reply on you.

Hmmm, if true, you learn something new everyday. Our club 172 has DME, and we're 6nm from GQO, and I've never been advised to turn it off on the ground.

 

[Bill]

$130K for later ones, yes, but I have seen decent '77 201s (1st year of production) in the 80s and 90s. Bought one myself this year.

Good to know that it is possible!

It looks like the price on this plane may have been adjusted for the gear up.

And, if the owner is under duress, maybe priced for quick sale.

Mooneys gear ups can be safely repaired. The skin panels are not structural like in others, but I'd have someone look it over long and hard to make sure it was done right. Slid on the belly, no problem. Hit a wing, I'd be more cautious.

I've heard that Mooneys are one of the safest planes to gear up due to the CrMo tube rollcage around the passenger compartment.

 

[tonycondon]

i dont think anyone will tell you to turn it off. This is just something i seem to remember reading in an obscure paragraph in a Jepp book, to do as a courtesy in busy areas.

 

[tonycondon]

and of course now i cant find anything in the private or commercial jepp books, or the AIM. maybe i was just dreaming...

 

[AirBaker]

I seem to remember reading something during private or commercial ground school about how DME usage from any one VOR/DME is actually limited to a certain number of users, and it was recommended that if you were on the ground that you turn off your DME so that it isnt wasting an reply on you.

Sounds fishy to me. Unless it was a Microsoft Brand DME?

 

[Michael]

Buy it Bill. if you dont like it, Sell it. We are all ment to fly mooneys, some of us just never get it.

 

[Ken Ibold]

Buy it Bill. if you dont like it, Sell it. We are all ment to fly mooneys, some of us just never get it.

True words, Michael, true words.

When my oldest goes to college, I will sell whatever airplane I own at the time and buy either J or, if I can afford it, an Ovation.

Unless I own, like, a jet or something.

 

[Bill]

Buy it Bill. if you dont like it, Sell it. We are all ment to fly mooneys, some of us just never get it.

My partner is looking at another M20J today in Fl. He had a job in Destin, and is going to check out the plane on the way home.

I think we'll end up with a Mooney of some type.

 

[jesse]

Hmmm, if true, you learn something new everyday. Our club 172 has DME, and we're 6nm from GQO, and I've never been advised to turn it off on the ground.

Sounds fishy to me. Unless it was a Microsoft Brand DME?

It is true.. There would be a limit with how many aircraft the system could work with. The airplane and DME station are in constant contact with each other.

Some good information about DME at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distance_Measuring_Equipment

A typical DME transponder can provide concurrent distance information to about 100 aircraft.[1] Above this limit the transponder avoids overload by limiting the gain of the receiver. Replies to weaker more distant interrogations are ignored to lower the transponder load.

Of course. With all things wikipedia it's hard to determine the validity of all this information. But it does explain the theory pretty well which does enforce what Tony said.

In the real world I highly doubt it ever really becomes an issue. If too many aircraft are talking to the DME station it just reduces it's gain and pretty much cuts out aircraft with weak signals.

 

[HPNPilot1200]

Hi Bill,

I haven't checked out the zip file, but I used to fly out of Danbury and my grandfather still keeps his Bonanza there. We both know a fair share of folks on the field and I may be able to go down to the field and check it out if you'd like.

EDIT: I know where on the field it is and will look up the registered owner in the FAA database.

Regards,
Jason

 

[Bill]

We both know a fair share of folks on the field and I may be able to go down to the field and check it out if you'd like.

EDIT: I know where on the field it is and will look up the registered owner in the FAA database.

If it didn't put you out too far, yes, a quick look and any intel would be appreciated!

 

[tonycondon]

Jason, it shouldnt be hard to find. Its the mooney thats tied to concrete blocks with about 10 feet of slack in the tie straps. does the wind never blow there or something!?

 

[HPNPilot1200]

Jason, it shouldnt be hard to find. Its the mooney thats tied to concrete blocks with about 10 feet of slack in the tie straps. does the wind never blow there or something!?

Haha, tony...In one of the pictures, you can see the hangar my grandfather keeps his Bo in.

If it didn't put you out too far, yes, a quick look and any intel would be appreciated!

I'll try to get down there to have a look, Bill. If you have time, send me a PM with any specific things you'd like mt to look for. I'm hoping to go down this weekend, but am not sure yet (it's not my home base, and I don't go there all that often).

 

[tonycondon]

yea, but im serious. are you in the permanent eye of all the pressure systems, or is this guy just praying itll blow away and he'll pick up an insurance check?

"well it was tied down mr. insurance agent"

 

[HPNPilot1200]

yea, but im serious. are you in the permanent eye of all the pressure systems, or is this guy just praying itll blow away and he'll pick up an insurance check?

"well it was tied down mr. insurance agent"

It looks like this guy might be under that principle of thinking... I personally agree, it looks awful not only in a picture, but in person (on the field). It's also very insecure.

 

[Bill]

It looks like this guy might be under that principle of thinking... I personally agree, it looks awful not only in a picture, but in person (on the field). It's also very insecure.

That doesn't give me much of a warm fuzzy...

 

[HPNPilot1200]

That doesn't give me much of a warm fuzzy...

It may be all those suble things that add up... I'm not trying to discourage a purchase, but I think we can all agree if an airplane is tied down, it should be tied down securely. If you're trying to sell an airplane and want to get away with the fact that you don't securely tie down the aircraft, the least you could do is properly tie it down for the picture.

We shall see...

 

[Lance F]

I think we'll end up with a Mooney of some type.

Now this is a good thing
The first questions that came to my mind were with the engine overhaul. Who did it? By personal experience I know there can be a BIG difference between a field overhaul and one done by a name shop. A by-the -book overhaul includes all new oil and fuel hoses; o/h mag, oil cooler & prop governor; new wiring harness; engine mount inspection w/ yellow tag; etc, etc.
The idea to get a copy of the logs and review them very closely is a good idea.
Don't rush.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

It is true.. There would be a limit with how many aircraft the system could work with. The airplane and DME station are in constant contact with each other.

Yup, now that I read this, I remember hearing that before (during my instrument training). I'll try to find the reference. Thanks for jogging the neurons. DME is an interrogate/reply system, whereas the VOR is just "listen" from the aircraft standpoint. Therefore, there is a "bandwidth" limitation on how many DME requests the ground-based equipment can handle in a given time frame.

http://www.avionicswest.com/dme.html

Will only happen in very busy airspace. Check out comment #4 for O'Hare:

http://airnav.com/cgi-bin/navaid-info?id=ORD&type=VOR.DME&name=CHICAGO+O'HARE

 

[flyersfan31]

Maybe they say don't operate the DME on the ground because if you do you'll find out it's so friggin' old you'll drive the a/c over to the avionics shop and not fly.

NON MOONEY EXPERT COMMENTARY --- you've probably done lots of research prior to getting serious, so excuse me if I mention something basic. It's my understanding that early J's have fuel tank sealing issues. May be priced into the selling price, given the $$ you quoted. Worth checking. The panel pix also show a degree of wear that may imply some hard usage.

Again, good luck.

 

[Steve]

For present traffic capacity, 110 interrogators are considered reasonable. Future traffic capacity could be increased when necessary through reduced individual aircraft interrogation rates and removal of beacon capacity reply restrictions.​

DME signals of this system are capacity limited; the system limits are approached when 110 aircraft are handled.

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pubs/frp2001/FRS2001.pdf​

 

[ejensen]

It's my understanding that early J's have fuel tank sealing issues.

All Mooney's even the new one will eventually have tank seal issues with the wet wing tanks. Some sooner than others. Hard landing and rough fields can contribute. I just had my left tank ('68F) redone and it appeared to be the original work minor patching. Right was done a few years ago and had extensive patching. So you're right the older ones are more likely to have a problem if they haven't been redone or bladders installed.

 

[AirBaker]

Yup, now that I read this, I remember hearing that before (during my instrument training). I'll try to find the reference. Thanks for jogging the neurons. DME is an interrogate/reply system, whereas the VOR is just "listen" from the aircraft standpoint. Therefore, there is a "bandwidth" limitation on how many DME requests the ground-based equipment can handle in a given time frame.

http://www.avionicswest.com/dme.html

Will only happen in very busy airspace. Check out comment #4 for O'Hare:

http://airnav.com/cgi-bin/navaid-info?id=ORD&type=VOR.DME&name=CHICAGO+O'HARE

This makes more sense now. The 'users' terminology isn't technically correct.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Will only happen in very busy airspace. Check out comment #4 for O'Hare:

http://airnav.com/cgi-bin/navaid-info?id=ORD&type=VOR.DME&name=CHICAGO+O'HARE

I knew I'd seen something to that effect before. Sounds like all of the aircraft on the ground at O'Hare could prevent some of the ones in the air from getting proper DME, which would really suck if they were holding at a DME fix...

 

[Anthony]

Maybe they say don't operate the DME on the ground because if you do you'll find out it's so friggin' old you'll drive the a/c over to the avionics shop and not fly.

Ha, ha. I've got one of those, an old Narco. I could swear there's vaccum tubes somewhere behind the panel. Sometimes it picks up 1951 Phillies games, yeah the wiz kids.

 

[Bill]

The idea to get a copy of the logs and review them very closely is a good idea.
Don't rush.

I'm in no particular hurry. I'd like to have one by Gastons, though.

 

[AuntPeggy]

Here is the information from the FAA database with extra spaces and linefeeds removed.
N202DC is Assigned
Aircraft Description
Serial Number 24-0013 Type Registration Corporation
Manufacturer Name MOONEY Certificate Issue Date 07/10/2003
Model M20J Status Valid
Type Aircraft Fixed Wing Single-Engine Type Engine Reciprocating
Pending Number Change None Dealer No
Date Change Authorized None Mode S Code 50314677
MFR Year 1976 Fractional Owner NO
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Registered Owner
Name MICNIC AVIATION INC
Street 3511 SILVERSIDE RD STE 105
City WILMINGTON State DELAWARE Zip Code 19810-4902
County NEW CASTLE
Country UNITED STATES
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Airworthiness
Engine Manufacturer None Classification Standard
Engine Model None Category Normal
A/W Date 09/30/1976
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Other Owner Names
None
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Temporary Certificate
None
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fuel Modifications
None
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The only other thing I can find on N202DC is a flight track this summer.
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N202DC/history/20060514/1354ZZ/KDXR/KMSV

- Aunt Peggy

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I'm in no particular hurry. I'd like to have one by Gastons, though.

Which year?

That's both a joke and a reminder that you should be extra-careful even if you have to bring the club 182 to Gaston's this year, 'cuz you can always bring your spiffy new plane, whatever it is, next year.

Besides, there is NOTHING WRONG with bringing a club 182 to Gaston's.