Comm. Pilot Privileges

Robert Wang

Robert Wang

Filing Flight Plan
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Robert631
Got these 2 questions wrong on my commercial pilot oral checkride.

If a friend rents a plane and wants to pay you $200 to fly him and his friends to Orlando for food, can you do that?

I answered yes and was told I was wrong.

Then the examiner asked: If your friend owns a plane and wants you to fly it to carry a legal document to his lawyer in Ocala for $300, can you do that?

The answer to that is No as well.

Can anyone explain why? Im not providing the plane and no one on board is paying to be on that flight nor did I hold out.
 
Sounds like private carriage to me. What was his justification?
 
Did the DPE give you the FAR he was basing those answers on?

I always thought that if the pilot did not supply the plane that both of those scenarios would be legal as a commercial pilot.
 
What class medical do you currently hold?

Also are you instrument rated?
 
Sure you can (as a commercial pilot). That's exactly what all corporate pilots do for a living. There's no law says you can't work for a friend.
 
EdFred said:
What class medical do you currently hold?

Also are you instrument rated?
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Hmmmm. I guess that if he doesn’t have an instrument and the locations were greater than 50 miles away that the DPE might have been tripping him up but I’d think that the DPE would have told him why he was wrong.

I would assume that he’d know the medical requirement though.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Hmmmm. I guess that if he doesn’t have an instrument and the locations were greater than 50 miles away that the DPE might have been tripping him up but I’d think that the DPE would have told him why he was wrong.

I would assume that he’d know the medical requirement though.
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Might be one of those trick questions. He may have went into the check ride with only a third class Medical (or a second class more than 12 calendar months) and the questions may have been based on that. If the question is asked "can you..." vs. "can a..."
 
Offhand it sounds like basic Part 91 to me. There are some ifs and buts the Examiner may have been getting at, although DPEs tend to stay very basic in this area for good reason.

I'm very surprised the DPE simply said, "wrong" and didn't use the opportunity as a teaching moment to explain why he thought it was wrong.
 
EdFred said:
Might be one of those trick questions. He may have went into the check ride with only a third class Medical (or a second class more than 12 calendar months) and the questions may have been based on that. If the question is asked "can you..." vs. "can a..."
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Yes, the "How old is the bus driver?" trick.
 
EdFred said:
Might be one of those trick questions. He may have went into the check ride with only a third class Medical (or a second class more than 12 calendar months) and the questions may have been based on that. If the question is asked "can you..." vs. "can a..."
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But I believe the questions should be focused more on the privileges and limitations of the certificate itself and be phrased along the lines of “ what limitations are placed on a commercial pilot without an instrument rating?”, not “can you..?” if the DPE knows the particulars of the applicant.

And in the case of the medical, again ask it in general terms of the certificate such as asking what level of medical is required to fly a particular operation, how long a second class is good for, and then maybe based on your current medical can you....

Applicants typically go in expecting to be asked the generic question and not questions about themselves in particular and that’s how they studied. If the DPE did as suspected, I consider it to be unfair. And his POI needs to have a discussion with him.
 
SkyDog58 said:
But I believe the questions should be focused more on the privileges and limitations of the certificate itself and be phrased along the lines of “ what limitations are placed on a commercial pilot without an instrument rating?”, not “can you..?” if the DPE knows the particulars of the applicant.

And in the case of the medical, again ask it in general terms of the certificate such as asking what level of medical is required to fly a particular operation, how long a second class is good for, and then maybe based on your current medical can you....

Applicants typically go in expecting to be asked the generic question and not questions about themselves in particular and that’s how they studied. If the DPE did as suspected, I consider it to be unfair. And his POI needs to have a discussion with him.
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I gotta disagree on the unfairness of a personalized "can you" question. It is "you" who will need to make decisions about "your" activities, not some other generic pilot.
 
I think all of my check rides involved the phrasing of can you as opposed to can a. In fact I was a smartass on one of the questions when I was asked similar a friend comes up to you and says can we do this? My response was nope because I haven't passed the check ride yet. He rephrase the question to say after you've passed the check ride...
 
midlifeflyer said:
I gotta disagree on the unfairness of a personalized "can you" question. It is "you" who will need to make decisions about "your" activities, not some other generic pilot.
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Ok but then phrase it something along the lines of “I noticed that you don’t have an instrument rating, are there any special limitations that would apply to you?” Or “Will you personally be able to ...”? Otherwise the fact that it is a question geared towards him as an individual might go unnoticed. There’s already enough stress on the applicant than to ask questions with some subtle or disguised nuance that could easily go over the applicant’s head. The task of a DPE is to test knowledge, not to be tricky.
 
I do have an instrument rating and I have a first class medical with 3rd class privileges. He wasn't trying to test my knowledge on medical b/c I already told him I'd need at least 2nd class privileges to use my comm. certificate.

His justification for the first scenario was that it falls into the category of air taxi and since your friend doesn't own the plane and is renting it, the plane itself is operated for hire. So now my question is, how do I know when is it air taxi or not?

For the 2nd scenario, he didn't really explain why I was wrong.
 
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Robert Wang said:
I do have a instrument rating and I have a first class medical with 3rd class privileges.

His justification for the first scenario was that it falls into the category of air taxi. So now my question is, how do I know when is it air taxi or not?

For the 2nd scenario, he didn't really explain why I was wrong.
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Well, then you can't do either of the scenarios. However, as presented the DPE is wrong. You aren't in Texas perchance are you?

Here's the way the DPE can weasel a that you are "wrong" in the first one: Rarely will a place rent an airplane to a non-pilot and let someone else fly it. They usually claim insurance as the reason. So they rent the plane to you, and then by default you are also providing the airplane. However, that is assuming facts not in evidence, and I would definitely have a talk with the FSDO on why the DPE says you were wrong, and hopefully if everything is as you presented they have a chit chat with the DPE.
 
Robert Wang said:
I do have an instrument rating and I have a first class medical with 3rd class privileges. He wasn't trying to test my knowledge on medical b/c I already told him I'd need at least 2nd class privileges to use my comm. certificate.

His justification for the first scenario was that it falls into the category of air taxi and since your friend doesn't own the plane and is renting it, the plane itself is operated for hire. So now my question is, how do I know when is it air taxi or not?

For the 2nd scenario, he didn't really explain why I was wrong.
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Ok. Thanks for clarifying.

If you have IR, a medical with at least second class privileges (yes I know you don’t), and you are not providing the plane then as a Commercial Pilot you could fly either of the two listed missions. It is not air taxi.
 
Can’t you just reach back out to the DPE and ask why the answer was wrong? Email, phone, in person?
 
EdFred said:
Well, then you can't do either of the scenarios. However, as presented the DPE is wrong. You aren't in Texas perchance are you?

Here's the way the DPE can weasel a that you are "wrong" in the first one: Rarely will a place rent an airplane to a non-pilot and let someone else fly it. They usually claim insurance as the reason. So they rent the plane to you, and then by default you are also providing the airplane. However, that is assuming facts not in evidence, and I would definitely have a talk with the FSDO on why the DPE says you were wrong, and hopefully if everything is as you presented they have a chit chat with the DPE.
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...and that's why most DPEs keep it simple. The typical FBO won't rent to a non-pilot. But the typical dry lease (which is really just a rental) is to a non-pilot, and is perfectly OK. So unless the scenario includes something like, "the FBO insists the pilot be approved by them," or some other indication of a connection between pilot and FBO, he's asking you to assume facts that make it improper rather than assume facts which make it proper.
 
Who mentioned "FBO"? The DPE only said "rented". I know of cases where the rental was from another friend or business that owned an airplane. Perfectly legal, but you want to be a named insured or have your own policy.
 
People actually apply for the Commercial Cert without an instrument (airplane) rating? Ag pilots, I guess...
 
As he had not passed his commercial checkride yet, I think the personal question is not in play here. It just doesn’t make sense unless the guy was just trying to fail him. I would reach out to the DPE for a full clarification on both questions.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Talk to an Ops ASI at your FSDO and ask him the questions, then tell him why you asked and give him the name of the DPE.
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He didn't say that he failed the checkride. If he passed, would it really be justifiable to make trouble for the DPE at the FSDO, as opposed to just having a conversation with him?
 
Palmpilot said:
He didn't say that he failed the checkride. If he passed, would it really be justifiable to make trouble for the DPE at the FSDO, as opposed to just having a conversation with him?
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i did fail but there were other topics that were justified that he failed me on. I just wanted to figure out why i missed the 2 scenarios he gave me for privileges and limitations. especially the second scenario, where im not carrying persons but just a legal document and I wasn't providing the plane.
 
Ask your CFI to show you the reg it would break and then talk to the DPE on your behalf when it isn't found.
 
As has been mentioned, both answers are correct.

Given the reference cities that were used, I would say that this DPE reports to the Orlando FSDO.

Who was the DPE?
 
k9medic said:
As has been mentioned, both answers are correct.

Given the reference cities that were used, I would say that this DPE reports to the Orlando FSDO.

Who was the DPE?
Click to expand...

Shawn Knickerbocker, and yeah, should be the Orlando FSDO
 
IK04 said:
People actually apply for the Commercial Cert without an instrument (airplane) rating? Ag pilots, I guess...
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When I decided to do it, it was 10 hours to get the commercial vs 35 to get the instrument. I got the commercial first, and the instrument about a year later.
 
Pretty sure the DPE was getting at the difference between commercial pilot privileges and commercial operator requirements. A better way to phrase this would be that certain operations require the operation to be certified, regardless of the qualification of the pilot. Obviously, in the DPE's mind, both were on demand charter operations which requires the operation to be certified.

Where the DPE slipped was the idea that he didn't define whether or not your friend ran a legitimate charter operation, but based on his answer, we can assume no.

So the real answer is that yes, a commercial pilot can perform these tasks, but only within context of a proper commercial operation.
 
bflynn said:
Pretty sure the DPE was getting at the difference between commercial pilot privileges and commercial operator requirements. A better way to phrase this would be that certain operations require the operation to be certified, regardless of the qualification of the pilot. Obviously, in the DPE's mind, both were on demand charter operations which requires the operation to be certified.
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The DPE’s mind is wrong, unless there’s more to the scenarios .
 
A commercial operator can conduct an on demand charter operation without having a certified operation?

What the operator does is not in the realm of commercial pilot privileges.
 
bflynn said:
A commercial operator can conduct an on demand charter operation without having a certified operation?

What the operator does is not in the realm of commercial pilot privileges.
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I believe what's being said is that it's private carriage and his friend is just a guy, not a commercial charter operation.
 
This is what stood out to me in the DPE's reasoning:

Robert Wang said:
...since your friend doesn't own the plane and is renting it, the plane itself is operated for hire....
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My understanding is that the renting of an aircraft does not, by itself, make it an operation for hire.
 
An operator is providing Air Services to other people not themselves so when your friend says "can you fly me" he's not providing services to the public. Part 91 corporate for example.

91.119(d) This part does not govern operations conducted under part 91, subpart K (when common carriage is not involved) nor does it govern operations conducted under part 129, 133, 137, or 139 of this chapter.
 
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Robert Wang said:
i did fail but there were other topics that were justified that he failed me on. I just wanted to figure out why i missed the 2 scenarios he gave me for privileges and limitations. especially the second scenario, where im not carrying persons but just a legal document and I wasn't providing the plane.
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Why not just follow up directly with the DPE? Explain you researched the question and still coming to the same conclusion based on the regulations. As if you might have misunderstood the context of the question.

I’m going to be taking my commercial ride in the next few weeks. If you feel like sharing the other topics you got dinged on, I’m all ears.
Good luck. I’m sure you will have the ticket soon.
 
IK04 said:
People actually apply for the Commercial Cert without an instrument (airplane) rating? Ag pilots, I guess...
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I only have a VFR C150 and will get to 250 hours before I will be close to having the cash to get another plane, so I might just get a VFR-only Commercial cert sometime next year. If I don't own a plane that can fly IFR, I will never stay current, so why would I bother with the Instrument rating? But the commercial could lower insurance, and I live 3 miles from a large drop zone.
 
IK04 said:
People actually apply for the Commercial Cert without an instrument (airplane) rating? Ag pilots, I guess...
Click to expand...

I’ve known jump pilots and banner towers who were VFR only Commercial Pilots. But not having IR certainly limits your opportunities.
 
bflynn said:
Pretty sure the DPE was getting at the difference between commercial pilot privileges and commercial operator requirements. A better way to phrase this would be that certain operations require the operation to be certified, regardless of the qualification of the pilot. Obviously, in the DPE's mind, both were on demand charter operations which requires the operation to be certified.

Where the DPE slipped was the idea that he didn't define whether or not your friend ran a legitimate charter operation, but based on his answer, we can assume no.

So the real answer is that yes, a commercial pilot can perform these tasks, but only within context of a proper commercial operation.
Click to expand...

The point you seem to be making is "the pilot is not a commercial operator, but the friend is." But neither is a commercial operator.

Commercial operator means a person who, for compensation or hire, engages in the carriage by aircraft in air commerce of persons or property, other than as an air carrier or foreign air carrier or under the authority of Part 375 of this title. Where it is doubtful that an operation is for “compensation or hire”, the test applied is whether the carriage by air is merely incidental to the person's other business or is, in itself, a major enterprise for profit.

The friend is renting the plane to himself for the transportation of himself. He is not a commercial operator any more than he would be if he owned the airplane and did the same thing.
 
Robert Wang said:
Got these 2 questions wrong on my commercial pilot oral checkride.

If a friend rents a plane and wants to pay you $200 to fly him and his friends to Orlando for food, can you do that?

I answered yes and was told I was wrong.

Then the examiner asked: If your friend owns a plane and wants you to fly it to carry a legal document to his lawyer in Ocala for $300, can you do that?

The answer to that is No as well.

Can anyone explain why? Im not providing the plane and no one on board is paying to be on that flight nor did I hold out.
Click to expand...

Maybe he knows you don’t have any friends.
 
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