(Comfortably) Buying a plane without a prebuy?

[Klaus M]

There's a couple different types of Aircraft purchases. One type is the aircraft is so cheap that you can afford to replace the engine the next day and still be ahead. No PreBuy, just buy it while the owner is hot to sell. That's happening more and more these days. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth, as they say.

The other type is buying at the market value. I recommend that the PreBuy be an Annual by the purchaser's mechanic. The seller agrees to pay the basic Annual cost and the buyer and seller negotiate the squawks. Some squawks are more preventative in nature while others are safety issues. The seller that wants market price is responsible for selling an airworthy aircraft. Another plus, you get a fresh Annual when you fly away.

The average age of an aircraft is near 50 years old. The aircraft maybe in the best condition ever and the seller has nothing to worry about. On-the-other-hand, just a couple weeks ago a buyer took my advice and found out the camshaft was pitted. The plane had great paint, interior and avionics but an old engine.

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

I've done prebuys on both of my purchases. First one found nothing and that thing was clean for me mechanically for the 4 years I owned it. Second one found a cracked fork (can't remember the real part name) and some easily corrected body corrosion. I reduced the price for the fork and bought it.

When I ask for prebuys I basically want to know engine, landing gear and corrosion.

The second one I bought without flying it. The first one I got a ride in it first.

Edit: have owned the second one for 3 years and it has cost me a lot of maintenance. Sometimes things break and sometimes there are things you're never going to catch on a prebuy.

 

[rkinzer]

Pre-buys lessen the risk but not completely. I walked away from an airplane deal due to the multiple issues. The airplane and the owner/pilot was know to an experienced pilot that told mw about the airplane. He thought it was well maintained but it had buried issues that must have been ignored during annuals. The best advice you can get is from a respected A&P that is really experienced with the type. In the end, after 2 years of looking and viewing (there are shady owners out there), I ended up with a great airplane that had little pesky issues to overcome. In the end if you go into the ownership journey, be prepared to get close and personal with the airplane. Don't go cheap on your approach to maintenance.

 

[schmookeeg]

The more prebuys I perform for others, the more I think the primary value of the inspection is to discover the scruples of the seller, and how likely his other representations are.

 

[MarkH]

The more prebuys I perform for others, the more I think the primary value of the inspection is to discover the scruples of the seller, and how likely his other representations are.

Any tips on how to discover this on the first walk around of the plane?

 

[schmookeeg]

Man it's probably more psych and game theory than anything that could be distilled to a checklist.

I want to see good shops in the logs, quality repairs on the airframe, upgrades-instead-of-overhauls where possible/feasible, as few vestigal bits as possible (no unused antennae, no knobs/switches that do nothing) and really in the 50% of cases where the seller is on-hand for me to query, I want to make sure they knew what the heck they were doing owning an aircraft at all

They're selling the plane, so at some point, they became tired of the thing. Part of my job is figuring out, is that a recent situation because they saw something newer and shinier? Or has this been a cash-deleting ass-pain for them, and they've been maintaining it like a step-child for the last decade. And did they used to love it? or has it always been some flying tractor they'd ride, abuse, and put away to not think about again.

The best situation is buying the recently deceased's pride and joy from the embittered widow who never liked the thing and the attentions lavished upon it instead of her.

 

[mondtster]

Man it's probably more psych and game theory than anything that could be distilled to a checklist.

I want to see good shops in the logs, quality repairs on the airframe, upgrades-instead-of-overhauls where possible/feasible, as few vestigal bits as possible (no unused antennae, no knobs/switches that do nothing) and really in the 50% of cases where the seller is on-hand for me to query, I want to make sure they knew what the heck they were doing owning an aircraft at all

They're selling the plane, so at some point, they became tired of the thing. Part of my job is figuring out, is that a recent situation because they saw something newer and shinier? Or has this been a cash-deleting ass-pain for them, and they've been maintaining it like a step-child for the last decade. And did they used to love it? or has it always been some flying tractor they'd ride, abuse, and put away to not think about again.

The best situation is buying the recently deceased's pride and joy from the embittered widow who never liked the thing and the attentions lavished upon it instead of her.

In my opinion, all of that should be done by the prospective purchaser long before someone comes in to do a PPI.

Perhaps the real issue is that many prospective buyers aren't doing their due diligence, hence the perception that a PPI is an important part of the purchase process.

 

[schmookeeg]

In my opinion, all of that should be done by the prospective purchaser long before someone comes in to do a PPI.

Perhaps the real issue is that many prospective buyers aren't doing their due diligence, hence the perception that a PPI is an important part of the purchase process.

Man I completely agree -- It's education/experience. There's a wide gulf between "I want a bonanza, those look cool" and "I know how to own/operate a bonanza" (or any airplane -- holy smokes I'm doing a lot of first plane/new PPL inspections on Bonanzas and Barons lately) and I get shoved in between those two to help make it all sensible, explain what I'm looking for/at and why, and hope to give them an idea of what they're in for for the next 5-10 years.

I think it was made acute when quality planes were being snapped up in hours. Now, I think there's time to peruse the logs and understand a plane before engaging with the seller.

 

[ServoB17]

In my opinion, all of that should be done by the prospective purchaser long before someone comes in to do a PPI.

Perhaps the real issue is that many prospective buyers aren't doing their due diligence, hence the perception that a PPI is an important part of the purchase process.

I don't disagree with this, but it is easier said than done when buying your first plane...in the crazy market we're coming out of...with prospective planes that are halfway across the country. I was definitely learning as I went, and luckily had some sense about how much I didn't know. So I leaned heavily on the experience of the A&Ps I hired along the way, and I came out the other side with a great airplane and no surprises so far after almost two years. But it was a little nerve wracking and I never quite shook the feeling that it was still a little bit of a gamble.

But the red flags @schmookeeg pointed out above? I wouldn't have been able to articulate that when I started my search. It's possible I would have recognized it when I saw it. I did pass on one plane that had just been painted, but not stripped, and the shop had painted over things like the door locks. That seemed a little red flag-ish to me.

The prebuy on the plane I bought was managed by Savvy. The nearest A&P had just switched to only working on experimentals because he was tired of dealing with the aging certified fleet, but we talked him into doing one more old Cessna. Nothing big was flagged in the prebuy report he wrote up, but when he called me he said: "I wouldn't have stopped working on these planes if they were all in this good of shape." That put me more at ease than all of the compressions, AD lists, etc...

Which, don't get me wrong, I still wanted to see those things. But what I really wanted was someone who had seen a lot of airplanes to tell me this was a good airplane.

 

[sourdough44]

I bought 3 planes over the years, no prebuy on any of them. Yes I did evaluate the sellers, talked to some maintenance shops, looked things over. I’m not an A&P.

Seems with most any plane, one ends up getting a few things up to snuff. I never felt bamboozled with my purchases, things drifted as I would expect.

I’m not recommending no prebuy to anyone. I knew a guy years ago who bought a Mooney, at the 1st annual with him the wings were so corroded the plane couldn’t pass, can happen. I think much starts with who you are buying from.

 

[mondtster]

I don't disagree with this, but it is easier said than done when buying your first plane...in the crazy market we're coming out of...with prospective planes that are halfway across the country. I was definitely learning as I went, and luckily had some sense about how much I didn't know. So I leaned heavily on the experience of the A&Ps I hired along the way, and I came out the other side with a great airplane and no surprises so far after almost two years. But it was a little nerve wracking and I never quite shook the feeling that it was still a little bit of a gamble.

But the red flags @schmookeeg pointed out above? I wouldn't have been able to articulate that when I started my search. It's possible I would have recognized it when I saw it. I did pass on one plane that had just been painted, but not stripped, and the shop had painted over things like the door locks. That seemed a little red flag-ish to me.

The prebuy on the plane I bought was managed by Savvy. The nearest A&P had just switched to only working on experimentals because he was tired of dealing with the aging certified fleet, but we talked him into doing one more old Cessna. Nothing big was flagged in the prebuy report he wrote up, but when he called me he said: "I wouldn't have stopped working on these planes if they were all in this good of shape." That put me more at ease than all of the compressions, AD lists, etc...

Which, don't get me wrong, I still wanted to see those things. But what I really wanted was someone who had seen a lot of airplanes to tell me this was a good airplane.

With perhaps the exception of the logbook review, all the things schmookeeg said he looks for (which is similar to where I start) would be identifiable with an initial phone conversation and looking at some photos. I understand that all buyers may not be technically minded and detail oriented but if an aircraft is that attractive to a buyer that it warrants a PPI I would sure hope that they got past the formalities.

Between my business partner and myself we have bought approximately 30 piston aircraft for recreational use. We've only sent one for a PPI, and that was after giving it a more thorough screening than what was previously suggested here. Many of the aircraft were never seen until I showed up to bring them home. The basic phone screening will typically weed out the undesirable aircraft and owners/sellers.

 

[UngaWunga]

I'll just put this here...

Disastrous First (and Last) Annual - Advice Needed

I am a new plane owner (but not for long more it seems), and would really value your input. I purchased a plane five months ago doing everything I thought I should do to minimize the risk of buying a lemon. This was the plane: 1962 Piper Cherokee 160, Low-time airframe (~2700 hrs), low time...

www.pilotsofamerica.com

 

[Bell206]

But what I really wanted was someone who had seen a lot of airplanes to tell me this was a good airplane.

FWIW: the one person who will give the most honest answer on how good it is will be the mechanic who will perform your first annual after purchase. If this is your 1st aircraft then the best advice I can give you is hire the mechanic who will maintain the aircraft before you buy an aircraft.

 

[3393RP]

Man it's probably more psych and game theory than anything that could be distilled to a checklist.

I want to see good shops in the logs, quality repairs on the airframe, upgrades-instead-of-overhauls where possible/feasible, as few vestigal bits as possible (no unused antennae, no knobs/switches that do nothing) and really in the 50% of cases where the seller is on-hand for me to query, I want to make sure they knew what the heck they were doing owning an aircraft at all

They're selling the plane, so at some point, they became tired of the thing. Part of my job is figuring out, is that a recent situation because they saw something newer and shinier? Or has this been a cash-deleting ass-pain for them, and they've been maintaining it like a step-child for the last decade. And did they used to love it? or has it always been some flying tractor they'd ride, abuse, and put away to not think about again.

The best situation is buying the recently deceased's pride and joy from the embittered widow who never liked the thing and the attentions lavished upon it instead of her.

This is good stuff. One must wonder if there are any A&Ps that think like you.

Disastrous First (and Last) Annual - Advice Needed

I am a new plane owner (but not for long more it seems), and would really value your input. I purchased a plane five months ago doing everything I thought I should do to minimize the risk of buying a lemon. This was the plane: 1962 Piper Cherokee 160, Low-time airframe (~2700 hrs), low time...

www.pilotsofamerica.com

I'm continually mystified by those that request an inspection for a prospective purchase using the term "prebuy" without mentioning specific criteria for the inspection. Hiring a mechanic in Pottsville to perform the service because he's in the next town over from where the aircraft is located is essentially meaningless in terms of determining its true condition, unless he's agreed to the specifics of the inspection.

Determining what that is might be outside the competence of some buyers, but it's not difficult to get assistance to perform the task. If the prospective purchaser doesn't request it, and the mechanic doesn't look for it, then whose fault is it after the discovery the plane needs expensive post purchase repairs?

 

[Bell206]

If the prospective purchaser doesn't request it, and the mechanic doesn't look for it, then whose fault is it after the discovery the plane needs expensive post purchase repairs?

The buyer. However, regardless what is agreed to or who performs a "prebuy" you are only buying a personal opinion and nothing more. If a 100hr/annual inspection is used then it moves up a notch as there is an airworthiness determination made and a signature. But even that includes a personal opinion for half the inspection. That said, aircraft are bought and sold without prebuys with no problems. While these aircraft tend not to be on the lower of the price scale or offered in the public domain, it does happen. The big difference is you have a group of owners who properly maintain their aircraft which leaves basically no surprises for the new owner or his mechanic at the next annual.

One must wonder if there are any A&Ps that think like you.

There still are a number of A&Ps that operate in the same manner. They're just getting harder to find or are accepting new customers.

 

[schmookeeg]

I'm continually mystified by those that request an inspection for a prospective purchase using the term "prebuy" without mentioning specific criteria for the inspection. Hiring a mechanic in Pottsville to perform the service because he's in the next town over from where the aircraft is located is essentially meaningless in terms of determining its true condition, unless he's agreed to the specifics of the inspection.

That's the problem, though, right? A prebuy is rented expertise where the buyer may have little or none of their own -- so unless they have owned the make/model before (and are thus better equipped to do their own prebuy) -- they're relying on the wrench to not only inspect and opine, but also to create the list of things worth inspecting and opining about -- it's horribly unfair to a new buyer. It's also why I often say that Plane Ownership could be its own checkride

Nobody wants to hear "uh you should really do more research before buying a plane" -- I have had a 0% success rate with that advice -- both in its being followed and in the recipient and I remaining friends.

I am fortunate that I can lean on the type club for the planes I inspect -- and have added to their 6-page checklist with my own things. Someone asked me recently to do a prebuy on a Skylane, and I could probably do okay as a generalist, but I declined -- I dunno the really odd 182 gremlins, and I couldn't describe in detail the difference between the various letter suffixes -- other than to identify a restart skylane vs a pre-restart one. I had nobody to recommend, and for all I know, that buyer is headed to Rando McRanderson's shop and may receive the same phonging that you linked to. (I forgot that thread, ugh, how miserable for that dude)

Any more, I just tell people "See if there's a Cessna Pilot Association you can join", as those places tend to concentrate expertise, experience, and the cuts and bruises and horror shows needed to level-up a prospective buyer in a hurry.

 

[k9medic]

It depends on the plane as has been mentioned.

I have had 3 different planes in prebuy in the past year (one of them is currently in prebuy.) The first plane didn't even get past the logbook inspection. The second plane was looking great right until we found 7 cracked cylinders.

Current plane is in prebuy but has been flying almost every day (commercially) so little worries there.