Comfortable Ownership?

RyanB

RyanB

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Ryan
I know this is a loaded question and one that comes with many variables - but - in a general sense, what is the minimum amount of dough one needs to have on hand or at least bring home, to comfortably afford ownership of something like an M20C or similar performing airplane?

I realize it’s going to depend on the other liabilities you have, but let’s assume those are covered, how much left over cabbage is needed?
 
There is no right or wrong answer here as people generally have varying degrees of risk tolerance but i like to plan for all the known fixed and variable costs + 2-3x an “average” annual and enough money to cover whatever the most expensive unplanned repair would be (engine overhaul etc) to have on hand in cash.
 
EdFred said:
I've been at 15k/yr on average all in for a Comanche over the past 13 years. Stop giving out bogus numbers.
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That tracks my experience as well on an arrow going on 9 years. All in around 11k-13k depending on the year (early ones i flew more) and whether it was hangared or not (it has varied too due to moves and hangar rash shenanigans). 25k for a fully depreciated 4 banger is an outsized figure. The warrior was only a 13 month tenure with high use (250 hours), and that still came out to like 15k (cheapest flying ive done to date). The 150 before that was cheaper still.

It aint cheap, but an m20 is not a 25k/yr affair on a decade long amortization basis.
 
RyanB said:
I know this is a loaded question and one that comes with many variables - but - in a general sense, what is the minimum amount of dough one needs to have on hand or at least bring home, to comfortably afford ownership of something like an M20C or similar performing airplane?

I realize it’s going to depend on the other liabilities you have, but let’s assume those are covered, how much left over cabbage is needed?
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On the cheap end, assuming you’ve bought the plane with cash and no loan:

1) Free tie-down parking
2) Self insure
3) Annual inspection ~$2000
4) Minimal repairs? -$2000

Total $4000/year

On the other end:

1) Hangar $600/month $7200/year
2) Hangar utilities $100/month $1200/year
3) Insurance $3000/year (low experience rate)
4) Annual $2000/year
5) Budget repairs $5000/year
6) Subscriptions $800/year (Garmin & Foreflight)

$19,200/year

Now you have your other costs which depend how often you fly. Fuel to get to the airport, ~10gph fuel, oil changes. If you fly 10 hours per month that’s 100gal and at $6/gallon that’s $600/month in airplane fuel.

If you do minimal maintenance and fly 10 hours per month, that’s an easy $1000 per month. If you have a hangar, insurance and better maintenance, that can easily add up to $2000 per month.
 
I concur that $15k is a reasonable estimate for 100hrs/year in average standard of living area of the country for a M20C.

But then there’s the “optional” upgrades…
 
texasclouds said:
Enough in the bank to buy the plane twice.
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That seems appropriate to me. Then again, I try to be financially conservative so that I’m not always stressed about money/finances/bills.

“Unplanned major engine work requiring engine to be pulled”? - sucks, but not the end of the world. Let’s get some quotes and get it done.
 
$11,694.24

Not 100% apples to apples, but this is for the 182RG that I used to own. This is from the last full year I owned it back in 2014. Airplane was owned through a company I set up and I and my consulting company rented it dry (so no fuel costs).

I would think the maintenance would have been a little higher than a M20C. Insurance was based on an $85,000 hull value. Subscriptions were XM weather and GNS430W updates.
 

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Upgrades cost WAAAAY more than operational expenses. Your first year will likely be far, far more than subsequent years in order to get the plane up to par, expect a 5-10k first annual. If someone is selling it, it's probably not because they were maintaining it in tip-top shape. There may be a big ticket item here or there depending on the model, and all models have them (Tail rebuild on Skywagons, gear pivots on 210's, wings falling off on Cherokees), which may need something like $10k in reserves to handle, but otherwise for a complex or high performance 4 seat piston single I'd agree with others, including insurance, annual etc. you're looking at 10-15k/year in upkeep cost.

Now the things that will make that spiral out of control are:
Interior
Engine
AVIONICS
Paint
Avionics
and also Avionics

So if you can avoid those things listed above - ownership is very reasonable. If you decided to do all of those things above (like morons like me) ownership becomes a 6 figure affair in a hurry.
 
Blatham489 said:
Most any plane, wholly owned, is going to cost you at least $25-30k to own annually. It goes up from there. Search is your friend.
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Uh, nope. Not even close. Not my plane. Well under $10K. No compromise on maintenance. Used to be even less, with the Warrior.
 
$12-15k/yr over the last 15yrs on average. Budget 10% of the purchase price to be spent in the first year to get the bird up to snuff.
 
RyanB said:
In all seriousness, is that legit advice?
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Probably not required, but if you find yourself doing a major engine overhaul plus one more big ticket item…well maybe not a bad idea to have some cash on hand.

Lets say you bought a C-170 for $70k, year one annual $5k, year two annual your engine is making metal and you decide to do a $25k certified overhaul. Plus say $5-10k to remove/ship/reinstall/finish annual. So, $70k for the plane plus $40k in mechanic bills. Hey, in this hypothetical situation I bet Joe Bob sure is glad to have money in the bank. Especially if he is paying for four months hangar bills for a plane he doesn’t get to fly. It also is great that this hypothetical man has an understanding wife. And it sure was smart of him to buy a blue one, which probably is her favorite color.

Notice fuel, oil changes, hangar, insurance is not factored in these numbers. Hypothetically.
 
RyanB said:
I know this is a loaded question and one that comes with many variables - but - in a general sense, what is the minimum amount of dough one needs to have on hand or at least bring home, to comfortably afford ownership of something like an M20C or similar performing airplane?

I realize it’s going to depend on the other liabilities you have, but let’s assume those are covered, how much left over cabbage is needed?
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Just add it up. Hanger, annual, insurance, a fixed gear is cheaper to insure. I will say that you need to have a reserve fund for the occasional bigger ticket items or at least a line of credit. Before looking to buy find a knowledgeable, helpful AP first. A nicer plane will be cheaper in the end. No dogs. Where you live matters also. A rural airport will have cheaper hanger rent and generally cheaper services. Big difference between Atlanta and Duplin County, NC
Some areas can yield significant savings. Learn to do simple maintenance yourself, it is not hard, but doing it wrong can be bad. Get your AP. Find an AI that does owner assist.
By far the biggest savings is a GOOD partnership.
As with just about any endeaver, there is a smart way and a less than smart way to accomplish the same thing. Be patient and do your research. If it fits your mission, Do not overlook building or buying an EAB. There is a reason there are so many RV’s out there.
 
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texasclouds said:
Probably not required, but if you find yourself doing a major engine overhaul plus one more big ticket item…well maybe not a bad idea to have some cash on hand.

Lets say you bought a C-170 for $70k, year one annual $5k, year two annual your engine is making metal and you decide to do a $25k certified overhaul. Plus say $5-10k to remove/ship/reinstall/finish annual. So, $70k for the plane plus $40k in mechanic bills. Hey, in this hypothetical situation I bet Joe Bob sure is glad to have money in the bank. Especially if he is paying for four months hangar bills for a plane he doesn’t get to fly. It also is great that this hypothetical man has an understanding wife. And it sure was smart of him to buy a blue one, which probably is her favorite color.

Notice fuel, oil changes, hangar, insurance is not factored in these numbers. Hypothetically.
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At that price, You’d be better off building an RV variant. Starting with a fresh engine
 
The big numbers are good and you’ll have to adjust for your area. I don’t see ownership getting cheaper as more A&Ps age out and sparkles are already hard to schedule.

Little stuff that is not listed up there but adds up nonetheless:
  • Oil changes with oil analysis
  • Pilot static - G5s are extra
  • Spark plug cleaning with an occasional dead plug
  • Gasket leaks
  • Avionics software upgrades (require signoffs sheesh)
  • Cleaning supplies (and time)
  • Light bulbs
  • Assorted old widgets that crack or break
 
When I had a used, 40 year old complex aircraft, I'd agree with @Blatham489...over a 10 year period, I was lucky to spend ONLY $25k in the year. Over that 10 years just the annuals were over that amount several times, one nearly 3 times over.

I bought a brand new aircraft, and now over the past 7 years I'm in the "sub-$15k" club...just liability insurance though.
 
I seem to be in the $12-$15k range a year for my bo, not including upgrades. But insurance, hangar, fuel, oil changes, annual, small odd and ends fixes, subscriptions. Throw in the 24 month checks and still doesn't add a whole lot. Do owner assisted everything you can. But then what is your time worth??

I would have enough in the bank to cover some major items while always saving for a new engine. I honestly don't track anything closely, I'd rather not. I'd say spend upfront for a good plane and have a few grand sitting in reserves from the on set and continually build it up.
 
For a light single, 4X fuel is pretty close ballpark figure for operational costs. The first few years budget extra, maybe 10% of the purchase price to deal with deferred maintenance issues. Avionics upgrades are extra, and probably should be depreciated in 10-15 years.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
I concur that $15k is a reasonable estimate for 100hrs/year in average standard of living area of the country for a M20C.

But then there’s the “optional” upgrades…
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Hmm, even at 10 GPH, 100 hours is 1000 gallons. At $7 per gallon, you are starting at $7000.

Annual $2000 plus fixing anything wrong.

Insurance - low time pilot in a retract - $3000 - $3500

Tie down - $3000 - $4000 per year, Hangar $4000 - $7000

Data subscriptions - $800

Repairs - $2000 - $5000

Upgrades (paint, interior, avionics) - $2000 - $5000 (optional)

Engine overhaul fund - $20 per hour x 1000 hours = $2000
 
Country Flier said:
When I had a used, 40 year old complex aircraft, I'd agree with @Blatham489...over a 10 year period, I was lucky to spend ONLY $25k in the year. Over that 10 years just the annuals were over that amount several times, one nearly 3 times over.....
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hol up...............

if I'm reading this right, you said ONE annual cost $75k??????? man I wanna be your mechanic.
 
Average about 12k annually over the last 10 years owning an Arrow and Warrior (Each). Some minor upgrades like transponders a with ADSB…
 
I paid cash for my Stinson 108.
$2400 a year for a nice hangar.
$1100 a year for insurance
Probably $2000-$4000 a year on maintenance
I change my own oil.
Burn 10 gallons an hour and transport mogas to the airport so about $35-$50 an hour in fuel burn.
Flying about 50-100 hours a year would be all in around $10,000 a year.
 
I have been averaging around 7-10k per year on my complex single. I don’t fly as much as I should but I do all of my maintenance and repairs under the supervision of my mechanic. My annuals are $1000 plus parts or supplies that I buy even when I do upgrades. I don’t fly as much as I should or want but the extra fuel costs for flying more aren’t that bad. Insurance is the main single item followed by my tie down rate. If you have a good bit of complex time and an instrument rating, your rate will be a lot more reasonable I imagine. Totally worth the costs though to fly when I want and stay places I would not ever drive to.
 
I budget about 30k for my bird for 100 hours at these fuel prices. Then I fly 150 and.... well I prefer not to think about it. Coming up on two years and both have seen unexpected repairs to the tune of 20amu+. I think she's pretty well sorted now. Of course I thought that when we left for Florida last year, too.

A mooney will burn a lot less gas and engine reserves will be lower, so I'd guess 20 would be a very comfortable number. Hopefully you have better luck than me on repairs, and you can use the excess to build up a reserve fund to cover an engine, and then blow it on avionics instead.

You can figure the opex pretty easily. Be able to write a check for a new engine without it breaking you financially and you'll be fine.
 
Jim K said:
A mooney will burn a lot less gas and engine reserves will be lower, so I'd guess 20 would be a very comfortable number. Hopefully you have better luck than me on repairs, and you can use the excess to build up a reserve fund to cover an engine, and then blow it on avionics instead.
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A Mooney won’t fit a big screen tv in the back unless you can fold it. ;)
 
masloki said:
A Mooney won’t fit a big screen tv in the back unless you can fold it. ;)
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It's at least a big as a 170, and @kaiser said he had one in there.... wait do you think he was lying to us about the extension cord?!
 
A lot more than I have. My M20c will soon be up for sale after I resolve a couple squawks.
 
If you want aircraft ownership to be as economical as possible, things that can make a meaningful difference including: (1) find a practical and cooperative A&P/shop (if it has "jet center" in the name, you're probably f*'d), (2) learn to work on it yourself as much as possible (owner assisted annuals, do some of your own troubleshooting, etc.), (3) learn to read the maintenance manual and parts catalog, and (4) learn to parts hunt. If you read the various forums and FB, many of the biggest complaints come from folks with no mechanical inclination who just toss the keys to their A&P whenever something breaks, then complain about $20k annuals. You've got to get involved and get your hands dirty. In addition to saving money, you'll learn a LOT about your airplane in the process.

But as far as costs, I own an older light twin. I don't track what it costs per year (if I did, I'd sell it), but my fixed expenses are roughly:

$470/mo for hangar
$2k per year for insurance
$500 per year for databases
$2000 per year for annual inspection
$__________ per year for upgrades, repairs, etc. (some years this is probably $5k, some years its $25k - I've done radio upgrades, an engine monitor, etc.). This part you can somewhat control, at least from the upgrade standpoint.
 
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