Comfortable Ownership?

I think I'm close to wife+kids+plane. I make a good income and have been saving/investing for decades. There's never a "good time", but I think this might be "the time". Costs up here for MX and hangars and terrible, but otherwise a great place to fly. Just finished a 6 hour each way drive that would have been an hour in the plane. Wife just might be open.
 
RyanB said:
That brings me to my next question, wife and kids vs. bachelor life and owning an airplane? Can’t have your cake and eat it too, right? ;)
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I think you’ll find rentals to be your best option.

While there are some advantages to having a wife of your own, if you run the numbers you’ll probably find that it just doesn’t make good financial sense.
 
Flocker said:
+1. Nothing wrong with being a DINK
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Jim K said:
I'll admit that I have a massive advantage with regards to making my own schedule during the summer and winter. This makes things like flying for proficiency and IFR currency much easier. That said planning ahead is very hard. I don't know if I'll make fly ins until a few days before, which made it VERY hard to schedule in a club environment. Having my own plane means that if I wake up and want to go flying, I can. I often wish I had a 9-5 job so I could plan things ahead. We planned our big western trip for mid June....by the first week of June I was convinced we'd have to cancel; a couple weeks of LONG days and I got things to a place I could leave. I'm still trying to catch up.

WRT Mrs. K, I'll tell you....she was very resentful when I first learned to fly. Our youngest was a newborn, and she was pretty angry that I was going flying three days a week while she was changing diapers hourly. Once I finally got my ticket, I took her on a couple date weekends...time away with no kids, which is what she desperately wants. Our first trip was to Louisville, and we had one of the most memorable trips of our marriage. That turned the page for her. She could SEE what aviation could do for HER. Not long after we took our two oldest to Florida, and again had an amazing time that wouldn't have been possible without GA. We got stuck by IMC on the way home, and starting my instrument was her suggestion....

Resistance to buying the Lance was minimal...once she was convinced I wasn't ruining our financial future for a toy, she was on board. I had already shown her what was possible. My advice to anyone with a hesitant spouse is to take them on a trip, just the two of you. Somewhere commercial aviation doesn't reach. Take an Uber. Stay in a nice hotel...something historic and beautiful. Show them what's possible when you don't have to arrive two hours early for your pat-down.
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And there it is. If you want to be a leader, you have to be able to lead. Good job.
 
More advice, @RyanB

You can call around for tie down and hangar costs. For Mx, find a club near you with the type of plane you want to buy. I'm guessing they could tell you what the costs are.
 
RyanB said:
I know this is a loaded question and one that comes with many variables - but - in a general sense, what is the minimum amount of dough one needs to have on hand or at least bring home, to comfortably afford ownership of something like an M20C or similar performing airplane?

I realize it’s going to depend on the other liabilities you have, but let’s assume those are covered, how much left over cabbage is needed?
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Not yet an owner, but here is how I'm planning it in my case

Purchase price 70K
Inspection (including me flying out there/hotel/etc) costs
Sales tax and registration 7K
cost to form LLC if you're doing that 200
Expenses to get the plane here
- CFI to fly with me ~1,000 (have to get them a return ticket home)
- Gas to fly out here $1,800

Then I know I'm going to have
Insurance (3-5k for me)
Initial tie down/hangar fee (may need to tie down for a short period) $1,000

Initial stuff I'll want in the plane from the get go
- tug 2,000
- cleaners, oil, etc 100
- I will bring some blankets/etc from the house along with tools so probably won't need to buy those

Dual instruction (Insurance required)
15 hours X Fuel and CFI = $4,0000

Then, I'm "set up" and have a plane that insured, I'm checked out in, and that is able to fly. So my 70k airplane will take 90K out of pocket to be usable and settled out.

Then, i would want to have at least 20K that would be no big deal if I hit some adversity with MX in the first year. Annual alone will be 4-6K and I hope to keep it close to that number without too many extras.
I would also pick up a few spares (fuel pump, starter, magneto) as the plane I'm considering is fairly unusual and I'd hate to be grounded waiting for a part that's pretty cheap to have an OH unit available, call that another $1,500

So I would expect the first year to be 90K+20K reserve + any flying expense beyond the initial training hours. If I fly it say another 50 hours, that's another 10k, so I'd want 120K set aside for the first year on a 70K purchase.

AND, i'd want to not be stressed out about some $5k repair if it happens (hence why I budgeted 20K for MX, though i truly expect to spend $6k)

Future years would be fuel (13k)/mx (6k)/storage (3k)/insurance (3k) = 25K

Just my two cents from someone close to purchase but who doesn't own yet. BUT, as I tell my wife, we get to sell our club membership ($2,500) and save the monthly fee and flying fees on that. $1,600 + $8450 so about 11K the first year.

This makes it not too bad. LOL
 
MIFlyer said:
Not yet an owner, but here is how I'm planning it in my case

Purchase price 70K
Inspection (including me flying out there/hotel/etc) costs
Sales tax and registration 7K
cost to form LLC if you're doing that 200
Expenses to get the plane here
- CFI to fly with me ~1,000 (have to get them a return ticket home)
- Gas to fly out here $1,800

Then I know I'm going to have
Insurance (3-5k for me)
Initial tie down/hangar fee (may need to tie down for a short period) $1,000

Initial stuff I'll want in the plane from the get go
- tug 2,000
- cleaners, oil, etc 100
- I will bring some blankets/etc from the house along with tools so probably won't need to buy those

Dual instruction (Insurance required)
15 hours X Fuel and CFI = $4,0000

Then, I'm "set up" and have a plane that insured, I'm checked out in, and that is able to fly. So my 70k airplane will take 90K out of pocket to be usable and settled out.

Then, i would want to have at least 20K that would be no big deal if I hit some adversity with MX in the first year. Annual alone will be 4-6K and I hope to keep it close to that number without too many extras.
I would also pick up a few spares (fuel pump, starter, magneto) as the plane I'm considering is fairly unusual and I'd hate to be grounded waiting for a part that's pretty cheap to have an OH unit available, call that another $1,500

So I would expect the first year to be 90K+20K reserve + any flying expense beyond the initial training hours. If I fly it say another 50 hours, that's another 10k, so I'd want 120K set aside for the first year on a 70K purchase.

AND, i'd want to not be stressed out about some $5k repair if it happens (hence why I budgeted 20K for MX, though i truly expect to spend $6k)

Future years would be fuel (13k)/mx (6k)/storage (3k)/insurance (3k) = 25K

Just my two cents from someone close to purchase but who doesn't own yet. BUT, as I tell my wife, we get to sell our club membership ($2,500) and save the monthly fee and flying fees on that. $1,600 + $8450 so about 11K the first year.

This makes it not too bad. LOL
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I’m curious to know what type of plane has a 70k purchase price with 3-5k insurance and 4-6k annuals.
 
EdFred said:
6 seats vs 4 seats, that can be a jump. Though, I'm at 1300 for HP 4 seats, so that is a bit of a premium, could be airframe and time in type. Though RyanB isn't probably looking at a 6 seater.
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Only $1300 for a Comanche 250! You doing good!
 
“Doesn't it depend on how much you fly it?”

This is why you should break it into fixed costs versus variable costs. Fixed costs are independent of hours flow. Variable are a function of hours flown, like fuel costs. Database subscriptions, hangars are fixed costs. You pay them no matter how many hours you fly, even if it is zero.
 
RyanB said:
That brings me to my next question, wife and kids vs. bachelor life and owning an airplane? Can’t have your cake and eat it too, right? ;)
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I was able to do it, but had to stop the golf. Couldn’t support the 4 hrs for golf per week, but could sneak out for 1-2 hrs to fly and stay current.
 
I’ll bite. I own a Piper Archer. I wanted to know exactly the same thing, not because I couldn’t afford it, but because I wanted to go in eyes wide open.

I do my own oil changes, do owner assisted annuals, live in an area where hangars are around $200 a month, and insurance has averaged $800 a year. My numbers do not include overhaul. Over the years I have done some accessory overhauls when needed including ELT, Mags, Starter, alternator, door windshield, and carb.

2016: $18 K 110 hours
2017: $14.8 K 100 hours (includes 3.5 K for ADS-B)
2018: 7.3 K 60 hours
2019: 7.2 K, 40 hours
2020: 5.3 K, 9 hours
2021: 9.3 K, 40 hours
2022: approx 12.8K 50 hours
 
When I see questions about cost and income, my first question is are you paying yourself first? Until/unless you are saving and investing 10% of your income for the long term, you should not consider aircraft ownership. Aircraft expenses are disposable income.
 
Wait. Hold up. You mentioned comfortable and Mooney C in the same post.

Does not compute, I literally could not shut the door on a C when I sat in it. And as photos in a recent thread show, you can see I am not not wide in the hips.
 
Reading this thread made me want to calculate how much I’m spending per year flying through a club so I could compare to owning my own. I’m flying about 35 hours per year in strictly 20 year old Archer IIIs, and spending about $8000 a year. So comparably less than owning one myself and have the advantage of access to three or four of the same model.
 
Texan Pilot said:
have the advantage of access to three or four of the same model.
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This is the most overlooked benefit of renting. When my Yankee was down for months waiting for parts dues to covid, I didn't have any sort of backup. If one of the planes in the club I fly with goes down, there are still 8 others available to me, 2 more that I could get access to with just an insurance checkout, and another 3 that I can access if I am willing to do some more training.
 
Pinecone said:
Hmm, even at 10 GPH, 100 hours is 1000 gallons. At $7 per gallon, you are starting at $7000.

Annual $2000 plus fixing anything wrong.

Insurance - low time pilot in a retract - $3000 - $3500

Tie down - $3000 - $4000 per year, Hangar $4000 - $7000

Data subscriptions - $800

Repairs - $2000 - $5000

Upgrades (paint, interior, avionics) - $2000 - $5000 (optional)

Engine overhaul fund - $20 per hour x 1000 hours = $2000
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Tie down $3000-$4000, where are you tied down BOS, JFK? $1000-$1500 in most smaller airports when I was looking 8 years ago (I’m assuming supply chain shortages don’t apply to ramp space).

Repairs will decline, $5000 at first but declining to $2000 after 2 years. Insurance also drops (after 100 hours).
 
Tie down may be off. I don't tie down. EDIT - I just checked, yes, it is $100 per month, but paid quarterly, so I was remembering the $300.

But my hangar is $550 per month. And NOT a big city airport.

But nice new (less than 3 years old) hangars.
 
Pinecone said:
Tie down may be off. I don't tie down. EDIT - I just checked, yes, it is $100 per month, but paid quarterly, so I was remembering the $300.

But my hangar is $550 per month. And NOT a big city airport.

But nice new (less than 3 years old) hangars.
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Which city? Theres a huge difference between the coasts (or similar COL) and not the coasts.
 
I'm 175 hours a year:

Insurance $5200 annually;

Maintenance including annual, $2000 a year (new plane);

Hangar $10,800 a year (expensive in the OC, CA);

Fuel $14,000 a year;

Garmin G1000, ForeFlignt, etc. $1500 a year;

Misc $500 a year.

= $34,000 a year or just under $3,000 a month.
 
@RyanB
Here's a breakdown of what it costs me to keep my 177RG at KFGU:


Yearly Costs:
Aircraft Note: $5100
Hangar: $3600
Insurance: $3400
Annual: $3000
Jeppesen Updates: $500
Surprise MX: $1000
Total Yearly Fixed costs: $16,600


Hourly Costs
Fuel: 60 / Hour
Oil and MX: $25
Reserve for Engine: $40
Total hourly costs: $125

I tend to be proactive during Annuals and spend to fix things most people would just put off (things that don't affect safety of flight, etc), and thats why my annual costs are on the higher side. I could it cheaper, but I like to improve my airplane every year if I can. I factor in "surprise MX" because you never know when you're gonna need to fix something during normal operations. Tail beacon, tires/tubes, bearings, etc.

I have a wife, whose a stay at home mom to our 6 year old. We also send our 6 year old to the private Montessori school in downtown Chattanooga. I'm a "Senior Solutions Architect" for Red Hat, which pays pretty well, but its a technical pre-sales job. Private ownership is doable even with a family, but it does take a lot of cash. A small partnership or co-owner is the ideal way to own an aircraft that you don't fly often. i honestly don't fly my Cardinal enough to justify the nearly $17k per year I spend on just fixed costs. My kiddo is starting to get interested in aviation so thats why I've been keeping the airplane, and not going to a club or partnership somewhere.
 
Lynn Dixon said:
@RyanB
Here's a breakdown of what it costs me to keep my 177RG at KFGU:


Yearly Costs:
Aircraft Note: $5100
Hangar: $3600
Insurance: $3400
Annual: $3000
Jeppesen Updates: $500
Surprise MX: $1000
Total Yearly Fixed costs: $16,600


Hourly Costs
Fuel: 60 / Hour
Oil and MX: $25
Reserve for Engine: $40
Total hourly costs: $125

I tend to be proactive during Annuals and spend to fix things most people would just put off (things that don't affect safety of flight, etc), and thats why my annual costs are on the higher side. I could it cheaper, but I like to improve my airplane every year if I can. I factor in "surprise MX" because you never know when you're gonna need to fix something during normal operations. Tail beacon, tires/tubes, bearings, etc.

I have a wife, whose a stay at home mom to our 6 year old. We also send our 6 year old to the private Montessori school in downtown Chattanooga. I'm a "Senior Solutions Architect" for Red Hat, which pays pretty well, but its a technical pre-sales job. Private ownership is doable even with a family, but it does take a lot of cash. A small partnership or co-owner is the ideal way to own an aircraft that you don't fly often. i honestly don't fly my Cardinal enough to justify the nearly $17k per year I spend on just fixed costs. My kiddo is starting to get interested in aviation so thats why I've been keeping the airplane, and not going to a club or partnership somewhere.
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Thanks, Lynn, this is good information!
 
Lynn Dixon said:
@RyanB
Here's a breakdown of what it costs me to keep my 177RG at KFGU:


Yearly Costs:
Aircraft Note: $5100
Hangar: $3600
Insurance: $3400
Annual: $3000
Jeppesen Updates: $500
Surprise MX: $1000
Total Yearly Fixed costs: $16,600


Hourly Costs
Fuel: 60 / Hour
Oil and MX: $25
Reserve for Engine: $40
Total hourly costs: $125

I tend to be proactive during Annuals and spend to fix things most people would just put off (things that don't affect safety of flight, etc), and thats why my annual costs are on the higher side. I could it cheaper, but I like to improve my airplane every year if I can. I factor in "surprise MX" because you never know when you're gonna need to fix something during normal operations. Tail beacon, tires/tubes, bearings, etc.

I have a wife, whose a stay at home mom to our 6 year old. We also send our 6 year old to the private Montessori school in downtown Chattanooga. I'm a "Senior Solutions Architect" for Red Hat, which pays pretty well, but its a technical pre-sales job. Private ownership is doable even with a family, but it does take a lot of cash. A small partnership or co-owner is the ideal way to own an aircraft that you don't fly often. i honestly don't fly my Cardinal enough to justify the nearly $17k per year I spend on just fixed costs. My kiddo is starting to get interested in aviation so thats why I've been keeping the airplane, and not going to a club or partnership somewhere.
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That insurance seems high, doesnt it? I would expect that to be about half.
 
FPK1 said:
I'm 175 hours a year:

Insurance $5200 annually;

Maintenance including annual, $2000 a year (new plane);

Hangar $10,800 a year (expensive in the OC, CA);

Fuel $14,000 a year;

Garmin G1000, ForeFlignt, etc. $1500 a year;

Misc $500 a year.

= $34,000 a year or just under $3,000 a month.
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Plus I would guess property tax (on a new plane maybe $400/month in California?) and cost of money (maybe $1500/month opportunity cost). I would then in my way calculate the total at about $4700 monthly.

Those factors are largely why I fly a plane that my California county thinks is worth $21K (they have no basis for comparison, there’s only a handful in the US) and which I’d guess is actually worth maybe $40-50K max in the open market. That makes my property tax about $20 a month and cost of money about $200 a month. It’s a nice enough plane regardless, for my use.

$900 a month for a hangar? That’s a lot, my oversized hangar in So Cal is $445 but I know I’m very lucky to have found it 15+ years ago. I’ll never voluntarily give it up, not until I’m in the old people’s home, after I can’t get myself to the airport to socialize any more!

My maintenance cost has been held low because I do most of it myself, with A&P sign-offs and supervision. I’ve had the plane 12 years and as time goes on a lot of improvement has been done at modest cost.

My fixed monthly cost is thus about $1K per month. Fuel is extra at $50/hr, and if I kept an engine reserve it would be too. The engine has 1100 hrs total time since new, I fly only about once a week and I have a fair bit of cash on hand so I don’t bother.

Owning and flying a plane is not a thing that costs a fixed amount of money. The cost depends on your approach and how you’re able to refine it over time and experience. My approach for twenty years and two planes has been to choose the plane and maintain it in a way that is inexpensive relative to my income, so as to avoid financial stress in mid-life which is when saving, housing, family etc stress seems to peak.

I will probably feel more comfortable buying the $250K Marchetti of my dreams just before I’m too old to fly it :)
 
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charheep said:
That insurance seems high, doesnt it? I would expect that to be about half.
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Retracts. I’ve been using Joe Ruck for the past 4 years he’s beat anyone that’s quoted this same policy and coverage. It always comes down to retractable gear. A normal straight leg 177 would be half that rate I pay. Avemco couldn’t even get lower. I have it insured for 180k hull value
 
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