Comanche 250 - Cost per hour - Borrowing from friend

red4golf

red4golf

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Red4Golf
Yes, I know there are a lot of threads like this but I couldn't find a current one with a similar aircraft.

I'm looking at making an offer to a friend of mine that will allow me to use his Comanche 250 and I don't know where to start. The plane is in an airpark and he has stated that he wasn't looking to make money but he wasn't flying as much as he had been and he has a new addition being added to the family. I already have my estimates of cost per hour depending on certain variables but I'd like some other opinions.

This would be dry of course so I've removed fuel from my estimate and have come up with the following....
oil $2
Prop $5
Engine $15

Insurance should be a wash because I'm the higher rated pilot but I was going to offer the rate I would have been charged if I was the only person on the policy. I assume it will be somewhere around $2000 a year.

What am I missing?

Thoughts?
 
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red4golf said:
Yes, I know there are a lot of threads like this but I couldn't find a current one with a similar aircraft.

I'm looking at making an offer to a friend of mine that will allow me to use his Comanche 250 and I don't know where to start. The plane is in an airpark and he has stated that he wasn't looking to make money but he wasn't flying as much as he had been and he has a new addition being added to the family. I already have my estimates of cost per hour depending on certain variables but I'd like some other opinions.

This would be dry of course so I've removed fuel from my estimate and have come up with the following....
oil $2
Prop $5
Engine $15

Insurance should be a wash because I'm the higher rated pilot but I was going to offer the rate I would have been charged if I was the only person on the policy. I assume it will be somewhere around $2000 a year.

What am I missing?

Thoughts?
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tires, shop supplies, etc. Go at least 10$ for all maintenance items, so you'd be at $25/hr total for a dry rate. Convince him to go by tach time and that will save you about 10% over hobbs
 
You are friends, come up with a fair price for both of you. Ask him what all his costs were that didnt include fuel and oil, and divide all that by a number of hours that you think you both will put on it collectively for the year. That's your dry rate and you pick up the insurance difference as a "buy in". If I was letting someone fly my plane to just keep it running I wouldn't expect them to contribute to overhaul costs.

If it were me, that fair number would probably be in the 50 to 60 an hour dry range whether I was the lessor or lessee.
 
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I’d add at least $5 an hour for mag /plug service, $1 for tires, $2 prop overhaul, and $5 for the GPS data. But as EdFred said, $50-60 is still a deal and still below cost the owner experiance.
 
Clip4 said:
I’d add at least $5 an hour for mag /plug service, $1 for tires, $2 prop overhaul, and $5 for the GPS data.
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2500 for mags every 500 hours seems a bit excessive, the engine dollars seem enough to cover the prop, and flying the plane doesn’t make gps data cost more.
 
$15 per hour for the annual if we're basing it on 100 hours.
 
Just for reference, the Comanche I fly rents for $155 wet, and the owner isn't making much off that. Figure close to half that is fuel.
 
Salty said:
2500 for mags every 500 hours seems a bit excessive, the engine dollars seem enough to cover the prop, and flying the plane doesn’t make gps data cost more.
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Must be nice to have a mechanic work for free. In 500 hours figure two sets of plugs are $720 + $500 labor for period cleaning and installation. Then add the mag inspections at 500 hours. $15 an hour won’t come close to covering a 0-540 with removal and install. A prop overhaul is $3000 + governor overhaul + hours to remove and install. None of this assumes reserve for other repairs.

And yes, if you are a cheap ass you can cut out a contribution for the data. The owners operating cost for this plane is $80 an hour dry.
 
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What is more important is that you two keep being friends. You've got to work out when you fly it or when you don't. Does he/she get first dibs on weekends, holidays, etc.? Get a google calendar to schedule it. What if you schedule a date that he/she wants? Does he/she get to preempt / kick you off the schedule if he/she wants to go flying? Do you leave the plane topped off when you're done flying? Who pays what when you're out of town and the plane needs work to get you back home? Log book of who uses it and for how long?
 
Payment? Keep it simple. Offer $50/tach hour dry. Pay any extra insurance premium that might be incurred to put you on the policy.
 
WDD said:
What is more important is that you two keep being friends. You've got to work out when you fly it or when you don't. Does he/she get first dibs on weekends, holidays, etc.? Get a google calendar to schedule it. What if you schedule a date that he/she wants? Does he/she get to preempt / kick you off the schedule if he/she wants to go flying? Do you leave the plane topped off when you're done flying? Who pays what when you're out of town and the plane needs work to get you back home? Log book of who uses it and for how long?
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These are all great points and about the only thing I was sure of when we started discussions. We've known each other for years and served in the same Platoon. I'd hate to mess up that friendship over something as stupid as an airplane. Even though we are both laid back and trusting of each other, these items will be in writing with a clear process that we both agree to prior to the first flight.
 
red4golf said:
These are all great points and about the only thing I was sure of when we started discussions. We've known each other for years and served in the same Platoon. I'd hate to mess up that friendship over something as stupid as an airplane. Even though we are both laid back and trusting of each other, these items will be in writing with a clear process that we both agree to prior to the first flight.
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When I was borrowing from a friend, I paid for all the fuel, even when he flew. I flew a lot more than him. I provided the hangar space for free and did or coordinated all his maintenance, so he could just go fly when he wanted. He paid for the maintenance and parts that I couldn’t do for him but my time was free and I bought the oil, filters and such for oil changes. He always got preference when he wanted to fly. He was happy the plane was flying regularly and he didn’t have to pay hangar fees. I was happy to have a second plane to kick around in.
 
Clip4 said:
Must be nice to have a mechanic work for free. In 500 hours figure two sets of plugs are $720 + $500 labor for period cleaning and installation. Then add the mag inspections at 500 hours. $15 an hour won’t come close to covering a 0-540 with removal and install. A prop overhaul is $3000 + governor overhaul + hours to remove and install. None of this assumes reserve for other repairs.

And yes, if you are a cheap ass you can cut out a contribution for the data. The owners operating cost for this plane is $80 an hour dry.
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Here is where I may have an advantage in costs. His mechanic is the next door neighbor at the airpark and I'm going to talk to him about helping out because I love working on things. He may say no and that is cool but it never hurts to ask. As far as data is concerned.... There is a GNS-530W installed but the owner is VFR only so the inspections and database are all out of date. I would most likely pick up the tab on that because I would be the only one required to use it.
 
red4golf said:
Here is where I may have an advantage in costs. His mechanic is the next door neighbor at the airpark and I'm going to talk to him about helping out because I love working on things. He may say no and that is cool but it never hurts to ask. As far as data is concerned.... There is a GNS-530W installed but the owner is VFR only so the inspections and database are all out of date. I would most likely pick up the tab on that because I would be the only one required to use it.
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This is the kind of fairness that makes these arrangements work. When a cost is incurred only because of your use of the plane, you pay it. That's why I think that you are being more than fair offering to cover half of the insurance, which alone should smooth over any rough spots that come up with your dry cost figures.

You could also consider talking to him about which types of maintenance events would be your sole responsibility. For example, if you get a flat tire in Timbuktu then maybe you cover it yourself. But if a tire is worn out and has to be replaced at annual, you split the cost based on hours flown since the tire was last replaced or even just over the past year since tires are relatively cheap and friendships are not.
 
iamtheari said:
This is the kind of fairness that makes these arrangements work. When a cost is incurred only because of your use of the plane, you pay it. That's why I think that you are being more than fair offering to cover half of the insurance, which alone should smooth over any rough spots that come up with your dry cost figures.

You could also consider talking to him about which types of maintenance events would be your sole responsibility. For example, if you get a flat tire in Timbuktu then maybe you cover it yourself. But if a tire is worn out and has to be replaced at annual, you split the cost based on hours flown since the tire was last replaced or even just over the past year since tires are relatively cheap and friendships are not.
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He took a huge hit on insurance this last year. There was an incident in a different plane that was caused by a mechanical issue but his premiums still went through the roof. My costs as an IFR pilot without an oops is a fraction of his current quote. I'd be grounded or back to renting an hour a month if I were in his position.

I'm here asking these questions because he hasn't asked for anything but what I thought was fair and running raw numbers made me feel like a cheap jerk. I don't want to price myself out of using it while also finishing my commercial with a school but I don't want to take advantage of the situation either. Balancing act....
 
Seems a bit easy, friends after all. No need to get into the realm of real rental costs. The owner may want it flying anyway. The easy place to start is with fuel, fill it on return. Fly the plane the way the owner likes, power settings, cruise speed, whatever.

We all know it cost a fair bit more than fuel to fly, give him some extras. That could be a few cases of his favorite oil or a several month supply of a favorite beer.

A clean windshield & leading edges on return is essential too.
 
I’m in a similar situation as this and my advice is to just ask him what works best, since every arrangement is different.

In my situation, I cover fuel, various maintenance expenses (oil changes and small jobs here and there) and also coordinate maintenance that needs to be performed. I originally offered to pay him an hourly rate for a maintenance fund and other miscellaneous expenses, but he declined and said fuel was enough. Check and see and then go from there.
 
Thank you all for your suggestions and advice. I count this as an opportunity and don't want to take advantage of a friend so is nice to see that there are so many that think along similar lines.
 
More important question that must be answered. Where does your friend live and is he looking for more friends to help fly his plane? :)
 
WDD said:
More important question that must be answered. Where does your friend live and is he looking for more friends to help fly his plane? :)
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I'm guessing somewhere near Yelm, WA.
 
Clip4 said:
Must be nice to have a mechanic work for free. In 500 hours figure two sets of plugs are $720 + $500 labor for period cleaning and installation.
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When I was flying the banner planes, all the plugs came out every other oil change for cleaning gaping and testing. Any that failed on the bench tester were replaced with new. The total cost for mechanic for these tasks was $0 because I did it myself which is completely legal.
 
I'd make a guess of around $100 to $150 per hour, would be a pretty good friend deal. I have a friend with that same plane, he has lots of hours and the insurance is still $5000 per year, then there is hangar rent, then actual maintenance. And, remember retractable gear can eat up lots of maintenance time.
I mentioned to a friend that a guy had a quote to hire a pilot and plane, a 206, it was $450 per hour. Take out fuel, and the pilot and you are still well over $300 an hour. That friend asked me what I thought it cost to fly my 180, I don't keep track or care, but he figured it was probably a couple hundred an hour after everything is included.
 
All these costs ignore capital costs. So you get in for the cost of an hours operation, but he has to put up (already had to put up) the $100k to buy the thing?

Unless he’s specifically asking you to fly the plane to exercise it, I wouldn’t approach him at the numbers we’re talking about here.

Unless you don’t want to be friends anymore...

Honestly, I’d be offended if a friend approached me about renting my plane for $60/hour dry (roughly similar costs to operate as a Comanche) and there wasn’t some other deal (like, they put up their plane too or something).
 
AA5Bman said:
All these costs ignore capital costs. So you get in for the cost of an hours operation, but he has to put up (already had to put up) the $100k to buy the thing?

Unless he’s specifically asking you to fly the plane to exercise it, I wouldn’t approach him at the numbers we’re talking about here.

Unless you don’t want to be friends anymore...

Honestly, I’d be offended if a friend approached me about renting my plane for $60/hour dry (roughly similar costs to operate as a Comanche) and there wasn’t some other deal (like, they put up their plane too or something).
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If he’s like my buddy he won’t be offended. He was paying all the fixed expenses anyway even if I didn’t fly it and the engine wasn’t getting enough time. He was happy I was keeping it from rusting. Anything else I did for him was gravy from his perspective.
 
AA5Bman said:
All these costs ignore capital costs. So you get in for the cost of an hours operation, but he has to put up (already had to put up) the $100k to buy the thing?

Unless he’s specifically asking you to fly the plane to exercise it, I wouldn’t approach him at the numbers we’re talking about here.

Unless you don’t want to be friends anymore...

Honestly, I’d be offended if a friend approached me about renting my plane for $60/hour dry (roughly similar costs to operate as a Comanche) and there wasn’t some other deal (like, they put up their plane too or something).
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I understand what you are getting at but I ask this...

Would it change your mind if the plane was on his personal property and there was no hangar fee? How about if the plane was paid for?

I'm simply looking at all angles here and I obviously haven't given every possible detail.
 
red4golf said:
I understand what you are getting at but I ask this...

Would it change your mind if the plane was on his personal property and there was no hangar fee? How about if the plane was paid for?

I'm simply looking at all angles here and I obviously haven't given every possible detail.
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Ummm... no? First of all, I said capital costs - ie the fact that they had to plunk down a huge chunk of change to provide the OP access to the plane in the first place. Whether or not they used debt, it’s sunk cost and the dude it’s out $100k for OP’s enjoyment. So paid off or not doesn’t matter. Hangar is an operating cost anyway, technically speaking. It may be a fixed cost, but it’s not related to the purchase of the plane.

I dunno... I think this would be fine if the friend specifically asked OP to exercise his plane. I really think it’s shortsighted to ask someone to rent their plane and only cover the operating costs. Honestly, if I were in this situation and liked the guy enough to let them use my plane, I’d rather just give them the keys and tell to put gas in it and go have fun. The $60/hr makes it feel like the renter is pitching in their fair share - why, I covered oil and a portion of the annual and hangar rent! - but they’re 100% not.
 
AA5Bman said:
Ummm... no? First of all, I said capital costs - ie the fact that they had to plunk down a huge chunk of change to provide the OP access to the plane in the first place. Whether or not they used debt, it’s sunk cost and the dude it’s out $100k for OP’s enjoyment. So paid off or not doesn’t matter. Hangar is an operating cost anyway, technically speaking. It may be a fixed cost, but it’s not related to the purchase of the plane.

I dunno... I think this would be fine if the friend specifically asked OP to exercise his plane. I really think it’s shortsighted to ask someone to rent their plane and only cover the operating costs. Honestly, if I were in this situation and liked the guy enough to let them use my plane, I’d rather just give them the keys and tell to put gas in it and go have fun. The $60/hr makes it feel like the renter is pitching in their fair share - why, I covered oil and a portion of the annual and hangar rent! - but they’re 100% not.
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Maybe I wasn't clear...

I didn't ask to rent his plane and he didn't specifically ask me to exercise it. He knew my situation with the rental options in the area and I knew his personal situation. I was invited to look at his plane and test fly it to see if I was interested in flying it. I looked it over, we flew, and he asked what I would be willing to pay per hour to fly it. I guess I didn't understand what you were getting at like I thought or you didn't understand the question.

I'm simply trying to figure out a price that isn't an insult.
 
Damn and all this time I was never charging friends 1/2 of what my lawnmower, truck, chainsaws, etc cost. Never knew people had that attitude towards friends. "Oh you need to borrow my truck for the weekend? $25,000 and you can use it." Who needs enemies, right?
 
EdFred said:
Damn and all this time I was never charging friends 1/2 of what my lawnmower, truck, chainsaws, etc cost. Never knew people had that attitude towards friends. "Oh you need to borrow my truck for the weekend? $25,000 and you can use it." Who needs enemies, right?
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I had a friend ask if he could borrow my F350 diesel crew cab to take guys to Denver for a bachelor party. I declined, I work hard and put my money into tools and equipment to make more money. My friend spent every penny he ever made and then some on crap, dinners, snowmobiles, old cars etc... Lost his house to foreclosure but refused to sell his motorcycles or snowmobiles, or anything else. He was always asking to borrow something, "hey, can you bring your torch over, I need to borrow it", then I get it back with an empty oxygen tank. "hey, can I borrow a chainsaw with a long blade", I get it back with empty tank, and destroyed chain. "hey can I borrow your live trap", I didn't get it back, "my roommate backed over it".
Borrow my airplane??? FU
 
Wagondriver said:
I had a friend ask if he could borrow my F350 diesel crew cab to take guys to Denver for a bachelor party. I declined, I work hard and put my money into tools and equipment to make more money. My friend spent every penny he ever made and then some on crap, dinners, snowmobiles, old cars etc... Lost his house to foreclosure but refused to sell his motorcycles or snowmobiles, or anything else. He was always asking to borrow something, "hey, can you bring your torch over, I need to borrow it", then I get it back with an empty oxygen tank. "hey, can I borrow a chainsaw with a long blade", I get it back with empty tank, and destroyed chain. "hey can I borrow your live trap", I didn't get it back, "my roommate backed over it".
Borrow my airplane??? FU
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A trust fund baby ex-coworker of mine once asked to borrow my airplane for a trip to NM or some sort, after months of making fun of how slow it was. I told him of course you can buddy.... once you buy it. Which I got from one of my favorite Harrison Ford movies, the venerable Clear and Present Danger. :D
 
Wagondriver said:
I had a friend ask if he could borrow my F350 diesel crew cab to take guys to Denver for a bachelor party. I declined, I work hard and put my money into tools and equipment to make more money. My friend spent every penny he ever made and then some on crap, dinners, snowmobiles, old cars etc... Lost his house to foreclosure but refused to sell his motorcycles or snowmobiles, or anything else. He was always asking to borrow something, "hey, can you bring your torch over, I need to borrow it", then I get it back with an empty oxygen tank. "hey, can I borrow a chainsaw with a long blade", I get it back with empty tank, and destroyed chain. "hey can I borrow your live trap", I didn't get it back, "my roommate backed over it".
Borrow my airplane??? FU
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Sounds like you pick ****ty friends. I don't have a single friend like that, I disassociated from those types long long ago. All mine return whatever they borrowed topped off and even washed.
 
There is one thing that is really fair. You give the guy however much money is the insurance deductible in case you rang the airplane. Deposit can be refundable or not, however you want to cut it. At that point you pay in half of everything. The owner handles maintenance and makes all the decisions. You fly. You pay half the hangar, half the insurance, etc... You decide the wet rate, which should be the amount gas you burn multiplied by the price of it. If the owner decides to put in a pair of G5s you pay, or you bail. Only way it's really fair.
 
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