Colorblind and wants to fly

You need to stand out in front of Byerly's and have the tower flash the light guns at you and learn which is which. Seriously start somplace concrete.
 
The SODA test stands for Statement of Demonstrated Ability. At this point you've been studying for this test your whole life, just go take it, you're not likely to improve more with practice at this point.
 
I will go to Byerlys,how do I get them to flash the lights? I don't think my mom called you,I think I saw you.
 
I pretty much have to take you over there. I callup the tower chief, and find a "probable" slot. We go over there and call up on a handheld.

If I had my way, they'd flash about 30 flashes of the green and white until you can distinguish them; but I've been in the tower cab, and those light guns are HEAVY. But we can tell a LOT in short order....

You have to be accompanied on the ramp. TSA and all.
 
I saw Dr. Chien. I think I did ok. I figured out that the green is a little blue to me. The map colors look different but I'm not sure what to call them. So I guess I will be able to do this with help.
 
Unregistered said:
I saw Dr. Chien. I think I did ok. I figured out that the green is a little blue to me. The map colors look different but I'm not sure what to call them. So I guess I will be able to do this with help.
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It doesn't matter what you call the colors, as long as you can correctly distinguish them from each other in their operational context. So, the fact that the green lantern looks a little blue to you should not be an issue, since the tower doesn't have a blue lantern and there are no blue position lights on aircraft. Likewise, it doesn't matter how you see the map colors as long as you can tell towered airports from nontowered, etc, on the chart.

So, 50 posts later, I'm glad to hear you appear to have cleared this obstacle. :)
 
Unregistered said:
I saw Dr. Chien. I think I did ok. I figured out that the green is a little blue to me. The map colors look different but I'm not sure what to call them. So I guess I will be able to do this with help.
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/You did fine for a first go. You still need to see the light guns at the actual home port for the 8900.1 ride, and you will do that again partway through PVT -ASEL, when we get your CFI (maybe me) to take you down to the FSDO home port and identify all the colors of the approach lighting system.

By then you'll have the sectional chart MEMORIZED and know what to call stuff.

What we determined is that you actually can tell the difference, you just don't see the same things that the "normals" see. That, with training is waiverable.

It's not what color you actually see, it that you can recognize the differences and NAME the common name for the color that you happen to see as a pale bule-white, which is the green.

It's like learning the translation table to a slightly different language.
 
bbchien said:
/You did fine for a first go. You still need to see the light guns at the actual home port for the 8900.1 ride, and you will do that again partway through PVT -ASEL, when we get your CFI (maybe me) to take you down to the FSDO home port and identify all the colors of the approach lighting system.

By then you'll have the sectional chart MEMORIZED and know what to call stuff.

What we determined is that you actually can tell the difference, you just don't see the same things that the "normals" see. That, with training is waiverable.

It's not what color you actually see, it that you can recognize the differences and NAME the common name for the color that you happen to see as a pale bule-white, which is the green.

It's like learning the translation table to a slightly different language.
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Hmmm, interesting. If a person 'sees' color differently and learned next to others, how would they know that the colors they see would be named something other than what others see when they have no base for comparison?
 
Henning said:
Hmmm, interesting. If a person 'sees' color differently and learned next to others, how would they know that the colors they see would be named something other than what others see when they have no base for comparison?
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It wouldn't matter.

As long as they can distinguish the difference between the frequency band called red and the frequency band called green.

For all you know, you and I both see "red" differently - you might see the same light I see as blue and I might see it as yellow. Its irrelevant. Its the same band of frequencies of light.

It would account for severe differences in taste in colors though... ;)
 
Greebo said:
It wouldn't matter.

As long as they can distinguish the difference between the frequency band called red and the frequency band called green.

For all you know, you and I both see "red" differently - you might see the same light I see as blue and I might see it as yellow. Its irrelevant. Its the same band of frequencies of light.

It would account for severe differences in taste in colors though... ;)
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That's exactly my point. We learn to identify colors when our parents point to something that is emitting or reflecting the wave length of light and call it "Green" or whatever. We will always identify that wave length we perceive with that name. That wave length does not change, the name doesn't change.

My question is where does the confusion between the name and the wave length enter when we can distinguish between them? The only thing that's left to change is the equation is the color perception of the mind.
 
The confusion comes from the Mom. The Mom has two X chromosomes, and gave the defective one to her son.

When Johnny is age 2 and is learning his colors, Mom stops because she has no idea what's going on. Most of the Mild deuteranopes, if trained at an early age, can identify everything, and learn the common names for what everyone else has named it....but what is actually being seen is a matter for developmental psychologists to assess.
 
bbchien said:
The confusion comes from the Mom. The Mom has two X chromosomes, and gave the defective one to her son.

When Johnny is age 2 and is learning his colors, Mom stops because she has no idea what's going on. Most of the Mild deuteranopes, if trained at an early age, can identify everything, and learn the common names for what everyone else has named it....but what is actually being seen is a matter for developmental psychologists to assess.
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Ok, I understood the genetics on the condition, it was just the learning part that was confusing me.
 
So my son, Mr. unregistered, is really Todd. He wants me to explain this. A normal person sees 7 hues of color. A child with a defect or total loss of the green cone sees somewhere in-between. Where, there isn't a way to totally know except deep color testing. Full loss of the green cone would leave him with only 2-3 hues. I don't believe he is that. Pretty rare. I do believe he is more severe than mild. Confusion and learning problems start early with a more pronounced loss. As children learn primary colors they get them fast. Todd seemed to know them one time and not the next. Preschool loves to do patterning, put all of this color m n m's in a row and you can eat them. So what happened was quick failure, no rewards, and withdrawal. Now I have a child who doesn't want to participate and teachers start to punish. Then the mom battles with teachers who say it's a behavior problem. And I say over and over there is something wrong. He was # 3 and not over protective mom. He asks for a colored balloon that isn't there. Then he just says I don't want a balloon because he is learning that he is always wrong. Colors come in lots of shades. We say red and there are a jillion shades of it, or blue, green.... They aren't able to tell the variance. Dark green is black, light green is yellow, yellow can be white.....a deep pure color Todd can tell is different and identify correctly. A varied form of a color he knows is different, but can't put it in a color group because they are so close. It's like us saying it's light tan,cream, or off white, it's perception. Forget that with Todd, it's just light colored. Does this help?
 
Dear "Mom":

I gather from the thread that you have already spoken to Dr. Bruce Chien. Continue doing that. He's one of the top people in the country in this field, and your best move is to take his advice unquestioningly. It seems he's already evaluated Todd in the field, and it appears Todd can do what's needed to pass the "special medical flight test" required to obtain medical approval to be a pilot. That's really all that matters.

I wish Todd all the best in his aviation endevors.

Ron Levy, ATP, CFI
Former university aviation program director
 
So, all, it turns out I know mom from when I was doing mainstream medcine (2010 and prior), and I can tell from how that post is written that that actually is likely mom. After all we write the way we speak, generally.

The problem is that NONE of the adults around the young male understand what is going on, it's not possible because the young man has nobody to relate to, during the period of his trying to figure out what's this thing people call purple, and what's this thing people call magenta. We see the purple as a variant of blue and magenta looks bluish red as well; worse it changes based on light conditions. Fluorescents have very little red in their spectrum. Thus Ishihara demands 7000K intensity lighting- that of a small thermonuclear reactor (e.g, the sun). Fluroescents are about 750K.

I have a bit less of the situation than Todd, and so I "get it". I'm just fortunate enough to have the waiver (OE counts for something). Sometimes a then-7 year old boy is lucky enough to have a young male elementary school teacher who also has the "problem" and manages to figure out what's going on.

Now tell me, each one of us....how many of our elementary school teachers were male? Not so many....or as Jay Leno would say, "not so much...."

And so we embark down a two year path to learn to translate from whatever Todd sees, into this thing that we more-normals call BLUE. RED. OFF WHITE. As in:

"Honey, there's a bit too much red in that white paint, don't you think?"
"Uh, if you say so, dear....".

Those with normal color vision are very "Normo-color centric". Todd has no trouble teling a red light from a yellow or a green. But it's far more complicated than that :sigh: .
 
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Thanks 'mom':D So it's the negative feedback from making the mistakes that throws the curve in the learning process, makes sense.
 
bbchien said:
Thus Ishihara demands 7000K intensity lighting- that of a small thermonuclear reactor (e.g, the sun). Fluroescents are about 750K.
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Sunlight with a clear sky goes between 5000K morning/afternoon and up around 5500K at noonish, overcast shifts towards 6500K.

Florescent bulbs are between 2700K for 'Warm White' up to 5000k for Daylight with a 3200K-3400K range for 'Neutral White' and 4100K, for 'Cool White'. However they are spectrum limited, they do not carry the full range of each color as evidenced through a prism; you'll see individual bands of color with space in between. They're also heavy on UV and between these factors is why they always make pictures green on film. This is why flourescent bulbs should NEVER be used to give the Ishihara under. Most AME's have a 40 year old yellow paged copy of the book and florescent bulbs...:nonod:

Incandescent bulbs go between 2700 & 3400 except those 'Daylight Bulbs" which are tinted blue to make them 5500k. Halogens are incandscent in this respect putting out a much stronger IR spectrum. This is why I use them as part of my mix doing copy art work to help neutralize the 'purpling' that come in copy work from the UV brighteners in the materials.

The crap one learns as a photographer...:rolleyes:
 
It's absolutely the negative that effects the drive. It took training teachers yearly on color and learning. He can see difference and learn, but everything affects his perception, saturation, lighting...a child, no different than a dog, has to learn how to win, or they shut down. I inspire him to win at whatever level he is capable. He may have to lose, and he knows that. He is very cautious to dream and reluctant to do that with his buddies who are already flight training. And yes I am really mom. Lol

And Todd says he wants you to be his cfi...
 
Unregistered said:
It's absolutely the negative that effects the drive. It took training teachers yearly on color and learning. He can see difference and learn, but everything affects his perception, saturation, lighting...a child, no different than a dog, has to learn how to win, or they shut down. I inspire him to win at whatever level he is capable. He may have to lose, and he knows that. He is very cautious to dream and reluctant to do that with his buddies who are already flight training. And yes I am really mom. Lol

And Todd says he wants you to be his cfi...
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LOL, I never had a doubt you were his mom.:D Yeah, teachers aren't that bright really, most of them have no clue as to detecting these things, and negative reinforcement, as with dogs but to a much greater degree, it's the worst possible way to teach someone to overcome a problem.
 
Oh, Todd, don't sweat it, we all have our defects and deficiencies, as far as they go, 'color blind' isn't a biggie really when you consider everything that you need to make it through life, there are a lot rougher things like my insanity lol.
 
Ron Levy said:
Dear "Mom":

I gather from the thread that you have already spoken to Dr. Bruce Chien. Continue doing that. He's one of the top people in the country in this field, and your best move is to take his advice unquestioningly. It seems he's already evaluated Todd in the field, and it appears Todd can do what's needed to pass the "special medical flight test" required to obtain medical approval to be a pilot. That's really all that matters.

I wish Todd all the best in his aviation endevors.

Ron Levy, ATP, CFI
Former university aviation program director
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I have talked to Dr. chien, more times than you know. (I own making him crazy). I didn't know him from aviation but learned it as a coincidence because of my son. I have in the past, and will take his advice in the future. You are all incredible. I can't believe the help and responses that everyone have given to my son. I wish you could meet this little man, or get on Facebook. Thank you for the well wishes.
 
Unregistered said:
I have talked to Dr. chien, more times than you know. (I own making him crazy). I didn't know him from aviation but learned it as a coincidence because of my son. I have in the past, and will take his advice in the future. You are all incredible. I can't believe the help and responses that everyone have given to my son. I wish you could meet this little man, or get on Facebook. Thank you for the well wishes.
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Many of us are on Facebook...
 
Henning said:
Many of us are on Facebook...
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Look for Todd Rogers Brimfield Il. He has 2 pages. Best one is either him flying or black car, not sure what's up. The other one is a Big St. Bernard and 4 kids. Either are ok to friend request, but 1st page is the best. He would love to have all of you as friends. He is a really busy kid, yes 8th grade graduation is thurs night! Lol. And on to high school next year. # 4 is really making me feel old.
 
It has been five months since my son Todd started this thread of his desire to fly. Well he started flight training in July and after 42 flights he is just a couple flights away from solo!! He is amazing!! AND only missed lining up over the runway once after the corn was down. Todd says "I'm on final thinking I'm good and his CFI says what are you doing? Todd realizes at that point "oh my god" it's not the runway and corrects. A great lesson of never get comfortable and keep watching for subtle differences. Thank you for encouraging his dream. It coming true!!
 
Free bird said:
It has been five months since my son Todd started this thread of his desire to fly. Well he started flight training in July and after 42 flights he is just a couple flights away from solo!! He is amazing!! AND only missed lining up over the runway once after the corn was down. Todd says "I'm on final thinking I'm good and his CFI says what are you doing? Todd realizes at that point "oh my god" it's not the runway and corrects. A great lesson of never get comfortable and keep watching for subtle differences. Thank you for encouraging his dream. It coming true!!
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.....Grins really really broadly....
We SeaRats say Bravo Zulu to Todd :)
 
As a person with serious color issues of my own, I've enjoyed reading this thread and even learned a few things. I agree that you "learn" the right color name by what you see, not so much by what the actual color is. For me, Magenta is darker on a chart than the blue, although I don't see either color as someone without color deficiencies would. This just means that I call the darker color "Magenta" and the lighter color "Blue".

I'm scheduled for a Farnsworth Lantern test this month to see if I can have the restriction removed from my Class III. I'll let those who are interested know how that goes...

Wade
 
I have such "deficiency" and fly for the airlines now.
I get the eye portion of my medical completed at an Optometrist a week prior to my medical, and take completed form to the AME, skipping the eye test all together.

Here is the form I have filled out http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Form/FAA Form 8500-7.pdf



At the Optometrist the color vision is a non-jeopardy event, after my full eye screening I take several alternate color test and my report is marked "color vision normal" with one of the test referenced. Whats weird is I can pass the D15 which is supposedly much more difficult than Ishihara but I struggle on some of the Ishara plates (but with in limits) no way am I going to risk that with an AME.
 
Hobobiker said:
As a person with serious color issues of my own, I've enjoyed reading this thread and even learned a few things. I agree that you "learn" the right color name by what you see, not so much by what the actual color is. For me, Magenta is darker on a chart than the blue, although I don't see either color as someone without color deficiencies would. This just means that I call the darker color "Magenta" and the lighter color "Blue".

I'm scheduled for a Farnsworth Lantern test this month to see if I can have the restriction removed from my Class III. I'll let those who are interested know how that goes...

Wade
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I'm interested. Would love to hear you progress. Good luck!!
 
Am I missing something or does form 8500-7 not refer to color vision anywhere on the exam results?
 
The doc's half off the 8500-8 is not published. There is a color vision standard. See the AME guide. It won't be on the "history" portion....why? Because most who are color deficient don't know that they are.
 
bbchien said:
The doc's half off the 8500-8 is not published. There is a color vision standard. See the AME guide. It won't be on the "history" portion....why? Because most who are color deficient don't know that they are.
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Just curious...these days do you think that's true anymore? Seems like I can't go to the physician without a color vision screening. "Ah yes ma'am I can read the numbers as well as the last twelve times you've showed them to me." ;) Same for the kiddos.
 
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