Colorado Pilots: I need advice.

amoel

amoel

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amoel
Hello guys, I am planning on flying from Las Vegas area into Vail, CO (KEGE - Eagle) on August 11th. Planning on departing at around 9 AM on a Cirrus SR22T and probably flying at 17,000 on an IFR flight plan. I am planing to meet with an experienced CFII here in San Diego to review my plans, but he is probably not familiar with Colorado flying in the mountains.

Any advice whatsoever you can give me is very welcome! maybe how to avoid turbulence, best time of the day to fly, how to approach the airport in case I want to fly VFR instead... is this even a good idea? tell me about the winds, etc.
 
How to avoid turbulence? don't fly
Best time of day to fly? In the summer be on the ground by noonish
How to approach the airport in case I want to fly VFR? Above the ground. Don't plan on flying into Vail unless it's VMC. See the ground, avoid the ground until over the runway.
Is this even a good idea? Maybe, maybe not.
Tell you about the winds, etc? It can be windy. You may find downdrafts that exceed your ability to climb. Your climb performance will be degraded by density altitude.

Experienced pilots manage to deposit themselves and their aircraft in the mountains, particularly in the summer. Find a mountain flying course/CFI in California and learn about what you don't know. The flight you propose might be easy-peasy or it could have a really bad last half-hour. I'd say get up early in Vegas and depart by 6 to make it most likely easy-peasy. Leaving Vail do the same, depart a little after dawn.
 
robert lomax said:
My advice is to meet And Train with a CFII that IS familiar with Colorado Mountain flying!
Next, Stay home.
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That's s bit extreme.

If he follows Clark's advice he'll be fine.

Only thing I'd add is that if you have a capable airplane, filing IFR is fine, but I generally avoid IMC in the Rockies, particularly in the summer time. If you think the turbulence is bad outside of the clouds.....you are in for a surprise.

I'd also say to watch the winds closely. When the winds at the mountain top sites se reporting greater than 15 kts, you can get into some real issues if you are flying low over or near the ridges.

Read Sparky's Mountain Flying Bible. It has some good general advice/guidance.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I'd also say to watch the winds closely. When the winds at the mountain top sites se reporting greater than 15 kts, you can get into some real issues if you are flying low over or near the ridges.
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No joke. My second cross country during my PPL I encountered some mountain wave turbulence just north of Santa Barbara. Got caught in a downdraft on the lee side that took me by surprise as MWT wasn't really something we spent a lot of time covering. Scared the hell out of me as I went from flying along fat dumb and happy in a couple mild bumps to suddenly seeing altimeter winding down and VSI at -1000 fpm while I was only what... 1500 feet above the ridge? Scary stuff and that was only a 4,000 foot tall ridgeline. Fortunately I instinctively increased power and pushed the nose down to get out of it instead of trying to climb through it otherwise it could have ended differently.
 
9AM? Leave at daybreak. If I'm flying in the mountains I like to be all done before noon. Don
 
You're flying a turbo, that's good. But don't wait until 9 am to depart, try for 6 or 7 am.
Next, land at Rifle or Glenwood Spings and drive over to Vail.
IFR, VFR, shmufir - if you can't see the mountains and the ground with your eyeballs, turn around and find clear vis.
At least you have an outs at Vail if thinks go wrong.
 
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I wouldn't go IFR. It all depends on the weather. If it is too bumpy you will have to scrub it. If there are clouds, you will have to scrub it even if IFR capable. IF there are clouds in the Colorado mountains there is ALWAYS ice so its a nogo. Plan on clearing any mountains by 1000'. Usually 13000' MSL will clear most any pass. If you are unsure about the approach to the airport, its possible to fly the approach VFR with or without flight following. It is kind of spooky flying patterns in those valleys. It can be done though. Typically there are updrafts on the windward (usually west) side and up and downdrafts on the leeward side. If the winds are above 20 mph or so, its probably best to scrub it. Best to do it with an instructor first time that is true. Find a local one.
 
You're in a turbo, so that gives you a distinct advantage.

Advice to leave at 6-7am is right on the money. 9am is too late.

Make the trip in VMC only. Most of us who live here and do this all the time in very capable airplanes avoid single engine IMC over the Rocks like the plague.

No need to land at Rifle, Glenwood Springs or anywhere Else. KEGE is an easy airport as Colorado mountain airports go. Big runway and in a wide, flat valley.
 
The only thing I would add is to stay out of Glenwood Springs. Not an impossible place to use but challenging even for the experienced. I would plan Vail and consider Rifle as an alternate. If you land at either don't forget your wallet (best to call and get en estimate). Enroute portion should not be a big deal but letdown and getting into the pattern could pose some challenges. Make sure you have enough O2.
 
Thank you SO MUCH for all the advice! I was already considering being on the ground by noon since I have been watching the winds at KEGE and they do start to pick up at that time, so I considered 9 AM since I am estimating 2.5 hour flight on the SR22T. But listening to your advice I WILL DEPART EARLIER. Thank you! as per the winds aloft, I will monitor them closely, I would think that the ones that matter to my flight are the ones at 9,000 and 12,000 feet, correct (the ones hitting the ridges?). I also have taken a couple of courses (live cam web) and read some material on mountain flying, also have some experience landing and departing Big Bear Lake (L35) here in California, which is a 6,752 ft elevation airport surrounded by mountains, but of course it has nothing to do with Colorado, that is why I am approaching this with a LOT of respect. I will find and read Sparky's Mountain Flying Bible, thanks for the tip. Rifle as an alternate (thanks!) no actual IMC (thanks, I won't). Also departing early on the way back (OK, thanks). Possible downdrafts east of the airport? (ok, I will be a little high to account for that, thanks).

I think I will fly an IFR flight plan and once close to the airport I will ask for a visual (conditions permitting) and will enter the pattern from the west if possible, in order to not execute the full approach which would take me 20 miles to the east (unnecessary probably), correct??

Thanks again! (really).
 
Sounds like a good plan @amoel. You don't need to do the IFR approach which comes in from the east, even if you have filed IFR. Just ask for the visual and circle down if you need to lose altitude. I agree with others about no actual IMC unless it's just to punch through a small cloud. Eagle has a tower so you will be handed off to them.
 
Oh by the way, this airplane is FIKI, but I am a little concerned to hear that there is ALWAYS ice on the clouds over these mountains... what about a day like today, I see it is OVC110, does that mean that I would probably pick up ice descending through these clouds in plain summer?
 
If it's OVC110 I would go VFR under the clouds. You would still have plenty of room between the clouds and the mountains. KEGE is about 6500 so the bases would be about 17500.
 
amoel said:
as per the winds aloft, I will monitor them closely, I would think that the ones that matter to my flight are the ones at 9,000 and 12,000 feet, correct (the ones hitting the ridges?)
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Better than that, look up the identifier for the mountain passes. Several of the key passes have actual AWOS type reporting stations and you can get the actual METAR data versus forecasted winds.

If you look on the sectional, there is a station near Glenwood Springs (Sunlight Mountain AWOS - Identifier K5SM) and another ESE of Eagle (Copper Mountain AWOS - Identifier KCCU)
 
Fearless Tower said:
Better than that, look up the identifier for the mountain passes. Several of the key passes have actual AWOS type reporting stations and you can get the actual METAR data versus forecasted winds.

If you look on the sectional, there is a station near Glenwood Springs (Sunlight Mountain AWOS - Identifier K5SM) and another ESE of Eagle (Copper Mountain AWOS - Identifier KCCU)
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Thanks! great tip!
 
I fly from VGT to Western Co all the time, it is an easy flight @ 13,500, hell, you can even do most if it @ 11,500. Go early, over GWS short hop to EGE.
 
The IFR MEA's are 13400 and 12900 to get to the start of the approach to Eagle (coming from the west) and yes, those altitudes are below freezing and any clouds are likely to have ice. Small airplanes don't work very well IFR in the Colorado mountains. There are pilots that have done it but its usually epic. And you are just getting your feet wet (I mean wings frozen), so Id advise a lotta caution...

It's not too difficult VFR, especially coming in from the west. But you will have to have 11-12k or so between Glenwood and Eagle. Those mountains are 11k. Things are high all over around there...
 
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Hello guys, thank you very much for all your advice. The flight from San Diego to EGE back and forth was a success thanks in part to your advice. I did read the Mountain Flying Bible and listened to the mountain AWOS during my flight and followed all your advice on this post. It was a little bumpy on the approach but not too bad. On my way TO EGE I stopped at an airport in Utah KSGU for fuel. On my way back I did it non-stop from EGE to SEE 3.5 hours flight.

Interesting thing happened to me. I ordered (and signed the order) for the airport line service to fuel it TO THE TABS* and they topped it off!!! that was too much weight for my weight and balance and they had to DEFUEL my airplane! that had me 1 hour late for my planned departure time... a guy from maintenance did a nice job defueling the airplane and I got a 30% discount from the customer service rep for my fuel at KEGE.

* Originally I wanted only to the tabs because I thought that with the possible headwinds on my way back I was going to have to stop, but when planing my flight early that morning I noticed that the winds were close to zero so flying non-stop was viable. So I called the airport to have them ADD 10 gallons each wing and that is when they told me: "oops, we topped it off already".
 
Very informational thread. Sounds challenging. And fun.
 
amoel said:
Hello guys, thank you very much for all your advice. The flight from San Diego to EGE back and forth was a success thanks in part to your advice. I did read the Mountain Flying Bible and listened to the mountain AWOS during my flight and followed all your advice on this post. It was a little bumpy on the approach but not too bad. On my way TO EGE I stopped at an airport in Utah KSGU for fuel. On my way back I did it non-stop from EGE to SEE 3.5 hours flight.

Interesting thing happened to me. I ordered (and signed the order) for the airport line service to fuel it TO THE TABS* and they topped it off!!! that was too much weight for my weight and balance and they had to DEFUEL my airplane! that had me 1 hour late for my planned departure time... a guy from maintenance did a nice job defueling the airplane and I got a 30% discount from the customer service rep for my fuel at KEGE.

* Originally I wanted only to the tabs because I thought that with the possible headwinds on my way back I was going to have to stop, but when planing my flight early that morning I noticed that the winds were close to zero so flying non-stop was viable. So I called the airport to have them ADD 10 gallons each wing and that is when they told me: "oops, we topped it off already".
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Glad you told them to offload the fuel, if that's what you wanted. I've seen people go into resignation mode and not take it off and depart over gross.

Glad you enjoyed the trip. Colorado mountain airports are real airports with nice long runways for the most part, and the challenges are weather and density altitude/performance. Most folks can safely fly to them with a bit of common sense and a willingness not to get trapped in rising terrain ("always have an out").

Compared to someplace say, like Idaho, where its real backcountry strips and more training is probably mandatory.
 
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