Colgan Q400 Down near KBUF?

I think they need to address the same letter to all owners of SUV's that drive in icing conditions.

Until you can prove your safe and properly trained you cannot drive your SUV in icing conditions.

Now that sounds reasonable to me.
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Law firm calls for grounding of Q400s. http://tinyurl.com/csgna3

Best,

Dave
Click to expand...
The first thing I thought when I saw you post above was that was the same argument they used with the ATR. When I read the article that is exactly what this law firm is trying to do, use the ATR argument to stop the Q400 from flying.
 
Basically what I'm seeing out of this is that all planes and pilots need to have extensive experience and proving out prior to use, and clearly the certification process isn't enough.

What idiots.
 
Yes, Matthew. And they will probably get paid while someone painstakenly works to disprove them.

Best,

Dave
 
smigaldi said:
Yep.
If you are writing something on PoA or any web board that you think needs to be semi-private so as to not potentially harm you if someone were to read it, then you probably should not be writing it at all on the Internet!
Click to expand...
Exactly. As long as you make sure that you don't say anything that could hurt you later, it's ok to say it. I respect those that don't speculate; it's only polite to respect those that do speculate.

Personally, I learn something from speculation, so I do participate in it. Beauty of a web board: you're not forced to read anything.
 
We all learn from examination and dissection of what happened after the fact. Incidents tend to make the best learning experiences for all involved. We should discuss it in detail at the appropriate time.

However, random speculation based on incomplete information doesn't help us individually (if you "learn" based on incorrect information you've taught yourself something incorrect) and it doesn't help us as a group, because incorrect speculations get spread as fact. While within the aviation community I believe we tend to have the logic to be able to dismiss incorrect speculation once facts come out, the majority of the world, especially those who are not pro-aviation, is not caable of doing this. The fact that internet speculation is cited in a supposed news article just goes to show why this is not the sort of behavior we should be encouraging.

Once the NTSB report comes out, I'll be very interested to read it and discuss it.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
We all learn from examination and dissection of what happened after the fact. Incidents tend to make the best learning experiences for all involved. We should discuss it in detail at the appropriate time.

However, random speculation based on incomplete information doesn't help us individually (if you "learn" based on incorrect information you've taught yourself something incorrect) and it doesn't help us as a group, because incorrect speculations get spread as fact. While within the aviation community I believe we tend to have the logic to be able to dismiss incorrect speculation once facts come out, the majority of the world, especially those who are not pro-aviation, is not caable of doing this. The fact that internet speculation is cited in a supposed news article just goes to show why this is not the sort of behavior we should be encouraging.

Once the NTSB report comes out, I'll be very interested to read it and discuss it.
Click to expand...
Ted,
I find that I also learn a lot from discussions based on incomplete facts. NOT about what caused the accident, but about what CAN cause accidents. For example, this incident brought up a lot of information about tailplane icing. Even if that has NOTHING to do with the final cause as determined by the NTSB, it is certainly valuable information to have. As such, the discussion is certainly valuable.

The danger lies in believing that our discussions predicated upon the supposed, reported facts have any bearing whatsoever on the true cause of the incident. They do not, and that should be understood up front. All the accident does is provide something of a framework for the discussion, with an ever-changing set of purported circumstances. In some ways this is like what we might have facing a real incident while flying.

I think that there's a real dichotomy here between our desire to explore the things that can kill us in order to avoid them and the desire to avoid speculating on the cause of an incident with incomplete facts.
 
Here is a much better explaination and sequence of events than I have seen anywhere else. Wish our press could be more factual like this.

Best,

Dave
 

Attachments

  • Flt Int'l.pdf
    407.8 KB · Views: 22
Speculation leading to the exact cause without the factual evidence to support it is not a good idea. But, the investigators will be looking at the evidence and putting together several "threads" that may lead to the final outcome. Ultimately, they'll issue a factual report indicating what they know with certainty. After that, a report of probable cause will be issued.

Much of the time, that probable cause is exactly what occurred but there are times they must speculate based on the evidence as was the case in the 737 rudder control issues. Evidence, testimony and testing led investigators that direction but they may never know with absolute certainty. Yet, modifications were made based on that speculation. Lives were likely saved as a result.

I expect the same may happen in this incident. It may result in a change in procedures, training or any number of possibilities. But, they won't get anywhere until they begin with evidence and known facts and continue them with speculation via threads to an eventual probable cause report.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
We all learn from examination and dissection of what happened after the fact. Incidents tend to make the best learning experiences for all involved. We should discuss it in detail at the appropriate time.

However, random speculation based on incomplete information doesn't help us individually (if you "learn" based on incorrect information you've taught yourself something incorrect)
Click to expand...

I disagree - Via the speculation we've had here, I've not only learned more about tailplane stalls, I've gotten a lesson in why the A/FD is much more important than most of us give it credit for. There's no notation on the approach plate about the potential reliability issue when intercepting the course from the north, and I often tend to get the info I need for an airport out of the GPS rather than cracking open the green book (which I *do* always carry in my flight bag). Maybe I need to crack the green book more often.

So, I think even the speculation can be valuable to us as pilots. :yes:
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I disagree - Via the speculation we've had here, I've not only learned more about tailplane stalls, I've gotten a lesson in why the A/FD is much more important than most of us give it credit for. There's no notation on the approach plate about the potential reliability issue when intercepting the course from the north, and I often tend to get the info I need for an airport out of the GPS rather than cracking open the green book (which I *do* always carry in my flight bag). Maybe I need to crack the green book more often.

So, I think even the speculation can be valuable to us as pilots. :yes:
Click to expand...
Is that in violation of the FARs regarding "all available information"? (That of course, is the FAA's way of being able to find fault with what you did, not necessarily with how the flight was actually conducted.)
I've used, at any given time, the FAA's AF/D, a Jepp guide, AOPA, NOAA, FAA NACO, so I think as long as your playbook is full, you've given a good faith attempt.
What it comes down to is that the media is a for-profit industry. As such, their job is not to report the news, it's to make money. If they can make money by reporting speculation and calling it news, that's what they'll do.
Click to expand...
They MAKE up stuff. They are less about reporting than about scoring points and "owning" a market. Never put up to bad reporting that which can be explained by gross profit! While they'll retract a falsehood, you will never find it as the lead off story. Usually buried in small print or spoken just before the commercial break.
Bottom line: THEY CHEAT! and deliberately so.
 
silver-eagle said:
They MAKE up stuff. They are less about reporting than about scoring points and "owning" a market. Never put up to bad reporting that which can be explained by gross profit! While they'll retract a falsehood, you will never find it as the lead off story. Usually buried in small print or spoken just before the commercial break.
Bottom line: THEY CHEAT! and deliberately so.
Click to expand...

And our speculation feeds this by giving them material to work with.

All of this stuff that we've learned now you'd learn from discussion after the fact as well, by examining the report. The problem is not with us, the problem is with who else reads this stuff.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
All of this stuff that we've learned now you'd learn from discussion after the fact as well, by examining the report. The problem is not with us, the problem is with who else reads this stuff.
Click to expand...
I disagree with this. We would only have learned about it if the final report pointed to tailplane icing. If it pointed to something else, tailplane icing may never come up in the discussion. Note that tailplane icing is just ONE of the things that came out during this DISCUSSION. Ken't mentioned the importance of the AF/D, and I think that coupled autopilots and the effect of configuration changes on them is another.
 
I see your point, Grant. I would have no problem with speculation if it actually stayed within the group and didn't leak to the uneducated public who will latch onto anything (bad) that they can. The problem is, it doesn't.
 
I try not to get into the speculation thing. I think I do a pretty good job at it. What I DO try to do is provide some insight, where I have it, as to WHY a particular speculation may or may not be feasible.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
I try not to get into the speculation thing. I think I do a pretty good job at it. What I DO try to do is provide some insight, where I have it, as to WHY a particular speculation may or may not be feasible.
Click to expand...
Which is a good thing. I think that discussing various accidents can be valuable because it brings up various points that might not otherwise get discussed. However, I don't like a lot of finger-pointing before all the facts are in. The biggest example in this case is the guy that has declared turboprops are unsafe in icing conditions before it has even been determined that icing was the cause.
 
I've been just sort of glancing at this thread--and It seems like there is more speculation about speculation then there is actual speculation about the accident.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I see your point, Grant. I would have no problem with speculation if it actually stayed within the group and didn't leak to the uneducated public who will latch onto anything (bad) that they can. The problem is, it doesn't.
Click to expand...

Wouldn't it be nice if we had a space to speculate that wouldn't leak to the uneducated public? :D
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Wouldn't it be nice if we had a space to speculate that wouldn't leak to the uneducated public? :D
Click to expand...
You mean a space to speculate about speculation? :D

Because we would not what our speculative speculation to influence the speculation that the media is speculating about? ;)

As long as it is not for VIP posters .......:yawn::yawn::yawn::yawn:
 
smigaldi said:
You mean a space to speculate about speculation? :D

Because we would not what our speculative speculation to influence the speculation that the media is speculating about? ;)

As long as it is not for VIP posters .......:yawn::yawn::yawn::yawn:
Click to expand...

WE don't need to speculate.

We just like to Brainstorm on all the things that could have happened.

Ya, that's it, brainstorm sounds so much better.
 
Alternately, they thought that they might be experiencing a tailplane stall rather than a wing stall. Hard to tell at this time. If they'd thought it was a tailplane stall, then it would explain the reaction (which would be appropriate were that the case).

I'll be interested to see the full report when it comes out.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Alternately, they thought that they might be experiencing a tailplane stall rather than a wing stall. Hard to tell at this time. If they'd thought it was a tailplane stall, then it would explain the reaction (which would be appropriate were that the case).
Click to expand...
If that is true, I've thought about a couple clues to keep in mind for the future. In a tail stall you won't get the shaker first. Then there's always the airspeed indicator.
 
Everskyward said:
If that is true, I've thought about a couple clues to keep in mind for the future. In a tail stall you won't get the shaker first. Then there's always the airspeed indicator.
Click to expand...

This brings up a good question: I seem to recall reading that you'll get feedback from the tail buffeting prior to the stall through the yoke. I don't know how the bigger planes with hydraulics operate, much less fly, but I'd figure that this would be different in such a plane, no? I'm more thinking about how the shaker operates and what sort of feedback you get at all.

Any insight into how the bigger planes fly, and how that differs from those of us who still use cables and rods to actuate our control surfaces?
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Any insight into how the bigger planes fly, and how that differs from those of us who still use cables and rods to actuate our control surfaces?
Click to expand...
The "bigger" (which is really not all that big) planes I have flown have had conventional primary controls so I can't comment on hydraulic controls. All the shakers I have felt are pretty pronounced. They also make a shaking noise. I wouldn't say that it feels that much like a buffet. "Shaker" is a pretty accurate description. Also, I would think that most pilots are familiar with what the shaker feels like because it is tested during the preflight, at least on the planes I have flown.
 
Everskyward said:
. All the shakers I have felt are pretty pronounced. They also make a shaking noise. .
Click to expand...


This is on the EMB120. If you can put aside the beeping noise, you will hear the "clacker" that comes on with the shaker.
As already said, the shaker is tested every day or every flight & there is now way it could be mistaken for a buffet...... Humm Buffet.... now I am getting hungry. :yesnod:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdEC_hHdCdk
 
A new article that does not paint a good picture of Colgan training nor of the Capt. who was at the controls of this flight.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124200193256505099.html

Not being familiar with airline standards I am curious to hear from some of our airline pilots if the criticisms levied in this article are fair or out of line.
 
CVR Transcript
Hot-1 is the pilot, Captain Marvin Renslow, 47, and Hot-2 is the co-pilot, First Officer Rebecca Shaw, 24.
CVR Factual Report
Page 12-9
20:15:48
START OF RECORDING
21:18:22
START OF TRANSCRIPT
21:18:22.8
TWR
and Colgan thirty four oh seven runway two two right at whiskey
winds three zero zero at one niner cleared for takeoff.
21:18:27.7
RDO-2
cleared for takeoff Colgan thirty four zero seven.
21:18:30.3
HOT-1
alright cleared for takeoff it's mine up to two thousand heading two seven
zero after departure. here we go.
21:18:35.4
CAM
[sound of increasing engine rpm]
21:18:42.3
HOT-1
check power.
21:18:44.6
HOT-2
and power checked.
21:18:48.8
HOT-2
eighty knots.
21:18:50.1
HOT-1
eighty.
21:18:55.0
HOT-2
V one.
21:18:56.2
HOT-2
rotate.
21:19:01.6
HOT-2
positive rate.
INTRA-AIRCRAFT COMMUNICATION AIR-GROUND COMMUNICATION
TIME and TIME and
SOURCE CONTENT SOURCE CONTENT
DCA09MA027
CVR Factual Report
Page 12-10
21:19:02.3
HOT-1
gear up.
21:19:03.0
CAM
[sound similar to landing gear handle movement]
21:19:07.5
CAM
[sound similar nose gear uplock and door closing]
21:19:10.4
TWR
Colgan thirty four oh seven turn right heading two seven zero
maintain two thousand contact New York Departure.
21:19:15.0
RDO-2
right two seventy two thousand and over to departure Colgan thirty
four zero seven.
21:19:20.7
RDO-2
Departure Colgan thirty four oh seven is seven hundred for two
thousand heading two seventy.
21:19:26.5
DEP-A
Colgan uh thirty four oh seven New York radar contact. climb
maintain one zero ten thousand.
21:19:31.6
HOT
[sound similar to altitude alert]
21:19:32.5
RDO-2
up to ten thousand Colgan thirty four zero seven.
21:19:35.5
HOT-2
ten thousand.
21:19:36.4
HOT-1
ten thousand alt sel flaps zero. set indicated airspeed two ten. climb
checklist.
21:19:44.3
HOT-2
alrighty.
INTRA-AIRCRAFT COMMUNICATION AIR-GROUND COMMUNICATION
TIME and TIME and
SOURCE CONTENT SOURCE CONTENT
DCA09MA027
CVR Factual Report
Page 12-11
21:19:45.4
CAM
[sound similar to decreasing propeller rpm]
21:20:08.9
DEP-A
Colgan thirty four oh seven proceed direct COATE.
21:20:11.5
RDO-2
direct COATE Colgan thirty four zero seven.
21:20:13.9
HOT-2
direct COATE.
21:20:14.2
HOT-1
direct COATE.
21:20:19.5
HOT-1
and NAV for me.
21:20:20.2
HOT-2
NAV selected.
21:20:39.9
HOT-1
wee this is fun.
21:20:41.7
Click to expand...
 
Part 2
21:20:41.7
HOT-2
yeah.
21:20:43.0
HOT-1
okay almost.
21:20:46.6
DEP-A
Colgan thirty four oh seven contact departure one one eight one
seven. eighteen seventeen.
21:20:50.9
RDO-2
eighteen seventeen Colgan thirty two-- thirty four zero seven.
21:21:00.9
RDO-2
[sound of mic click]
INTRA-AIRCRAFT COMMUNICATION AIR-GROUND COMMUNICATION
TIME and TIME and
SOURCE CONTENT SOURCE CONTENT
DCA09MA027
CVR Factual Report
Page 12-12
21:21:10.0
RDO-2
departure Colgan thirty four zero seven five point seven for ten
thousand.
21:21:14.2
DEP-B
Colgan thirty four zero seven New York Departure roger.
21:22:27.0
HOT-2
and climb checklist complete. I don't know if I said it or not.
21:22:31.0
PA-3
ladies and gentlemen for your continued safety we do ask that you keep
your seatbelts securely fastened even if the captain turns off the fasten
seatbelt sign. we would like to add a special welcome to our One Pass
members. you'll be earning valuable miles for your trip today. if you are
not already a member of the One Pass program you can enroll online at
Continental dot com...Continental Connection is pleased to provide you
with a complimentary copy of Sky Mall catalogue and Continental
Magazine both located in your seat pocket.
21:22:31.6
HOT-1
autopilot's engaged.
21:22:33.5
HOT-2
alright.
21:22:39.2
HOT-1
it's probably a good thing.
21:22:43.7
HOT
[sound similar to altitude alert]
21:22:44.9
HOT-1
nine ten alt sel.
21:22:45.7
HOT-2
ten alt sel.
21:23:08.7
HOT
[sound of double chime]
INTRA-AIRCRAFT COMMUNICATION AIR-GROUND COMMUNICATION
TIME and TIME and
SOURCE CONTENT SOURCE CONTENT
DCA09MA027
CVR Factual Report
Page 12-13
21:23:14.1
PA-2
we're through ten thousand feet.
21:23:24.3
PA-3
ladies and gentlemen the use of approved portable electronic devices is
now permitted.
21:23:56.6
DEP-B
Colgan thirty four zero seven climb maintain one two twelve
thousand. proceed direct COATE.
21:24:01.4
RDO-2
twelve thousand direct COATE Colgan thirty four zero seven.
21:24:04.6
HOT-1
twelve alt sel.
21:24:05.4
HOT-2
twelve alt sel.
21:24:47.2
HOT-1
eleven twelve alt sel.
21:24:47.3
HOT
[sound similar to altitude alert]
21:24:48.6
HOT-2
eleven twelve alt sel.
21:25:14.2
HOT-1
have you ever looked at the logbook very much as far as uh like putting
your times and stuff in?
21:25:19.8
HOT-2
um-hum.
21:25:20.7
HOT-1
* okay. I kinda * you just haven't done like writeups?
21:25:25.2
HOT-2
yeah I just haven't written anything in it but I've looked at it and looked up
crew writeups.
INTRA-AIRCRAFT COMMUNICATION AIR-GROUND COMMUNICATION
TIME and TIME and
SOURCE CONTENT SOURCE CONTENT
DCA09MA027
CVR Factual Report
Page 12-14
21:26:18.0
HOT-1
well I didn't write any numbers down so.
21:26:21.8
HOT
[sound of double chime]
21:26:23.6
HOT-1
uh.
21:26:24.8
INT-2
hello.
21:26:25.6
INT-3
hi what do you think about doing service?
21:26:29.0
INT-1
actually I think if you could uh do something fairly quick I think we might
be okay. I don't have a whole lotta cloud cover up here.
21:26:36.4
INT-3
okay.
21:26:37.1
INT-1
uh just be careful.
21:26:38.8
INT-3
okay.
21:26:39.1
INT-1
if we hear of anything--.
21:26:40.7
INT-3
give us a buzz.
21:26:41.2
INT-1
we will.
21:26:41.9
INT-3
alright thanks.
INTRA-AIRCRAFT COMMUNICATION AIR-GROUND COMMUNICATION
TIME and TIME and
SOURCE CONTENT SOURCE CONTENT
DCA09MA027
CVR Factual Report
Page 12-15
21:27:08.1
DEP-B
Colgan thirty four zero seven contact New York Center one tree two
point six good day.
21:27:12.6
RDO-2
one three two point six Colgan thirty four zero seven.
21:27:22.4
RDO-2
departure Colgan thirty four zero seven twelve thousand direct
COATE.
21:27:29.3
HOT-1
geez.
21:27:30.7
HOT-1
this I **.
21:27:31.5
ZNY-A
Colgan thirty four zero seven New York Center you should be with
the New York Center on one three two point six.
21:27:40.8
RDO-2
alrighty we'll try them thirty four zero seven thanks.
21:28:12.9
RDO-2
Center Colgan thirty four zero seven twelve thousand direct
COATE.
21:28:16.8
ZNY-B
Colgan thirty four zero seven New York Center roger. Wilkes-Barre
altimeter two nine six seven.
21:28:22.3
RDO-2
six seven thanks.
21:28:25.1
HOT-2
six seven.
21:28:25.6
HOT-1
sixty seven set crosscheck.
INTRA-AIRCRAFT COMMUNICATION AIR-GROUND COMMUNICATION
TIME and TIME and
SOURCE CONTENT SOURCE CONTENT
DCA09MA027
CVR Factual Report
Page 12-16
21:28:27.4
HOT-2
set crosschecked.
21:28:30.1
HOT-1
alright.
21:28:42.0
HOT-1
today's the twelfth right?
21:28:43.5
HOT-2
yup.
21:28:47.0
HOT-2
at least that's what you told me earlier.
21:28:50.2
HOT-1
well that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
21:28:52.2
HOT-2
alright.
21:28:58.5
HOT-1
well that's good.
21:29:19.7
HOT-1
so where's this page here? I don't see any writing on it.
21:29:32.6
HOT-1
interesting.
21:29:50.1
HOT-1
alright I'll give that to you.
21:29:52.8
HOT-2
alright.
21:29:53.7
HOT-1
fill out what you can...I'll sign it **.
21:30:31.1
HOT-2
it's Zulu time is the in and out right?
INTRA-AIRCRAFT COMMUNICATION AIR-GROUND COMMUNICATION
TIME and TIME and
SOURCE CONTENT SOURCE CONTENT
DCA09MA027
CVR Factual Report
Page 12-17
21:30:34.3
HOT-1
uh that's in Zulu time but we want it local time.
21:30:36.3
HOT-2
yeah local okay.
21:30:38.5
HOT-1
on here. so just minus five. sooooo let's see.
21:30:45.4
HOT-2
so nineteen forty five.
21:30:47.5
HOT-1
seven forty five yeah nineteen forty five...wow an hour and a half taxi.
21:30:53.7
HOT-2
yeah. **.
21:30:57.8
HOT-1
oh that just-- that just stinks...we can't reap the benefit.
21:31:04.3
HOT-2
I know.
21:31:18.1
RDO-1
blocked.
21:31:44.6
ZNY-B
Colgan thirty four zero seven climb to flight level-- correction climb
to one six thousand.
21:31:50.0
RDO-2
one six thousand Colgan thirty four zero seven.
21:31:53.0
HOT-2
sixteen.
21:31:53.5
HOT-1
sixteen alt sel.
21:31:54.9
HOT-2
alt sel.
INTRA-AIRCRAFT COMMUNICATION AIR-GROUND COMMUNICATION
TIME and TIME and
SOURCE CONTENT SOURCE CONTENT
DCA09MA027
CVR Factual Report
Page 12-18
21:32:08.4
HOT-1
oops. you didn't feel that.
21:32:11.0
HOT-2
no I didn't feel that.
21:32:13.0
HOT-2
they didn't do a twenty four hour ice protection test.
21:32:15.4
HOT-1
yeah I just did.
21:32:16.5
HOT-2
you did?
21:32:17.2
HOT-1
yup.
21:32:20.5
HOT-1
that's why I was looking back on all those pages.
21:32:22.8
HOT-2
yeah.
21:32:23.2
HOT-1
it said it was miss-- er uh you know.
21:32:27.3
HOT-2
yeah.
21:32:28.0
HOT-1
there uh there was one page there wasn't anything on it. so it's like they
they tore it out in error.
21:32:34.1
HOT-2
oh yeah.
21:32:35.4
HOT-1
so.
21:32:58.1
HOT-2
just twenty four ice test complete? or write--.
INTRA-AIRCRAFT COMMUNICATION AIR-GROUND COMMUNICATION
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SOURCE CONTENT SOURCE CONTENT
DCA09MA027
CVR Factual Report
Page 12-19
21:33:02.0
HOT-1
yeah I'd-- I'd put twenty four hour uh check's complete.
21:33:19.1
HOT-2
alrighty.
21:33:20.9
ZNY-B
Colgan thirty four zero seven contact New York Center one tree tree
point tree five.
21:33:25.8
RDO-2
one three three point three five Colgan thirty four zero seven.
21:33:31.8
HOT-1
there we go.
21:33:32.9
RDO-2
thirty four zero seven fourteen point one for sixteen thousand.
21:33:37.3
ZNY-C
Colgan thirty four zero seven New York Center roger. Wilkes-Barre
altimeter two niner six seven.
21:33:42.4
RDO-2
six seven thank you thirty four oh seven.
21:33:48.0
HOT-2
I'm assuming we're only gonna land once.
21:33:51.6
HOT-1
yeah.
21:33:56.8
HOT-1
the only thing that um I would not do-- well the type of flight-- I don't
know if you can see it here. I'll show you.
21:34:03.8
HOT-2
I see. oh yeah I didn't know what to--.
21:34:05.9
HOT-1
if if you don't know the type of flight it is it's-- it's down here on the
bottom.
Click to expand...
 
Part 3
INTRA-AIRCRAFT COMMUNICATION AIR-GROUND COMMUNICATION
TIME and TIME and
SOURCE CONTENT SOURCE CONTENT
DCA09MA027
CVR Factual Report
Page 12-20
21:34:08.1
HOT-2
uh-huh. oh oh okay.
21:34:10.2
HOT-1
just a regular revenue flight--.
21:34:11.4
HOT
[sound similar to altitude alert]
21:34:12.3
HOT-1
fifteen sixteen alt sel. regular revenue flight is type one.
21:34:15.2
HOT-2
okay.
21:34:17.3
HOT-1
unless it's a reposition or special ferry or whatever it's something else.
21:34:21.0
HOT-2
[sound similar to sneeze]
21:34:21.6
HOT-1
bless you.
21:34:22.2
HOT-2
excuse me. okay.
21:34:24.0
HOT-1
um a-- and this is just my little deal and it is what I was taught and
everything. and and it makes sense to me.
21:34:31.9
HOT-2
sure.
21:34:32.7
HOT-1
um on your two.
21:34:35.6
HOT-2
uh-huh.
21:34:36.3
HOT-1
what happens if we have to divert to an alternate?
INTRA-AIRCRAFT COMMUNICATION AIR-GROUND COMMUNICATION
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21:34:39.0
HOT-2
oh yeah that's true.
21:34:40.0
HOT-1
um I was told it was their little uh uh like superstition.
21:34:46.3
HOT-2
oh.
21:34:46.6
HOT-1
you don't put-- you don't put it until you land there.
21:34:49.3
HOT-2
right right. no that makes sense.
21:34:49.7
HOT-1
uh but well okay. well you can take it that far. I don't care. but it makes
sense that if you have to divert someplace at least you're not scratching
through and doing all that kind of stuff. uh but I still do the one landing and
however many starts we have and fill the rest of it out.
21:34:59.3
HOT-2
yeah.
21:35:06.5
HOT-2
yeah.
21:35:07.9
HOT-1
but uh other than that that's all there is to it. on your writeups--.
21:35:15.0
HOT-2
I've written-- I mean I've written other planes up before. just not from--
with Colgan.
21:35:18.1
HOT-1
okay alright so you know like the one P or the two P as you write em up
like that?
21:35:20.6
HOT-2
uh-huh. yeah.
INTRA-AIRCRAFT COMMUNICATION AIR-GROUND COMMUNICATION
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21:35:23.7
HOT-1
write it up. uh and if you're doing one twenty one ops you obviously know
as short sweet to the point as you possibly can um.
21:35:36.0
HOT-2
give em all the details that you need to give.
21:35:38.2
HOT-1
yeah but but also don't get too wordy with it.
21:35:42.4
HOT-2
right.
21:35:44.0
HOT-1
um and what I try to do is-- is I'd look up in the MEL book.
21:35:54.7
HOT-2
uh-huh.
21:35:55.3
HOT-1
to begin with before I write things up.
21:35:58.0
HOT-2
so you know yeah.
21:35:59.0
HOT-1
that way if I screw up and write it up one way and it grounds the airplane
but it's not-- it's not exactly or I could write it up slightly different to get an
MEL to get it back to where you can do maintenance type of deal.
21:36:15.1
HOT-2
yeah.
21:36:16.3
HOT-1
it's it's a judgment call by all means.
21:36:19.7
HOT-2
yeah.
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21:36:21.2
HOT-1
you you definitely want to write the proper thing up. um you know I try to
uh uh get em to fix-- I uh on the Saab we don't have glass we uh we had
EFIS screens.
21:36:37.7
HOT-2
right.
21:36:40.1
HOT-1
but uh you had a EHSI and uh a EADI.
21:36:45.5
HOT-2
uh-huh.
21:36:46.2
HOT-1
I wrote up the course selector. course one selector.
21:36:49.0
HOT-2
uh-huh.
21:36:50.7
HOT-1
uh because it wouldn't move. it was stuck on one particular course setting.
21:36:55.9
HOT-2
uh-huh.
21:36:56.7
HOT-1
and uh wrote it up totally explained exactly what it was and they uh at the
time there were four planes down. two getting line checks and then my
airplane and another one uh that had something wrong with it. they only
had four mechanics on duty at the time. so they were all trying to do
something. er I'm sorry they had four down I was the fifth one.
21:37:20.1
HOT-2
oh okay.
21:37:21.1
HOT-1
so they tried to MEL the uh the uh the autopilot system uh because of the
heading selector.
21:37:32.0
HOT-2
yeah.
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TIME and TIME and
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21:37:32.6
HOT-1
I you know I wouldn't be able to turn. and it's like wait a minute. it doesn't
even apply.
21:37:36.4
HOT-2
yeah.
21:37:37.4
HOT-1
so uh you got to be careful about that.
21:37:40.5
HOT-2
yeah.
21:37:41.2
HOT-1
just don't-- you know understand the MELs that they uh they try to put on
it make sure it applies to what you're doing.
21:37:48.3
HOT-2
yeah.
21:37:48.7
HOT-1
and the problem you're having. and I I called em back and told em uh that
it doesn't have anything to do with the autopilot. well I mean doesn't it do
this this this? no it's-- this is what's wrong or this is what I told them
before. ohhhhhh.
21:38:03.6
HOT-2
yeah.
21:38:04.6
HOT-1
ehh well can we just go ahead with that MELed we'll uh get it--. well I'll
tell you we could go with that MEL but I can't sign the release. I guess
we'll have to get somebody to fix it then won't we. well I guess we will.
21:38:18.9
HOT-2
[sound of laughter]
21:38:19.5
HOT-1
took em twenty minutes to fix it. they just had to pop out a panel uh little
component put in another component.
INTRA-AIRCRAFT COMMUNICATION AIR-GROUND COMMUNICATION
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21:38:25.2
HOT-2
yeah.
21:38:26.1
HOT-1
and it took em all of twenty minutes. it's just the fact that they were
shorthanded.
21:38:29.2
HOT-2
oh yeah.
21:38:29.7
HOT-1
they were trying to uh uh--.
21:38:31.9
HOT-2
save a minute here.
21:38:32.7
HOT-1
yeah save a minute here. get us out back and then they would have time
to do it.
21:38:36.8
HOT-2
yeah.
21:38:41.1
HOT-1
but of course that turned into a fiasco. we were going to Alexandria
Louisiana that night.
21:38:46.3
HOT-2
oh yeah.
21:38:46.7
HOT-1
and uh let's do a cruise checklist.
21:38:49.8
HOT-2
oh cruise checklist.
21:38:51.2
HOT-1
yeah.
21:38:52.4
HOT-2
altimeters two niner six seven set crosscheck.
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21:38:54.9
HOT-1
two niner six seven set crosscheck.
21:38:57.5
HOT-2
power set seatbelt sign on lights set cabin pressure check. and well cabin
pressure. what's Buffalo at?
21:39:07.0
HOT-1
uh not too much. uh seven twenty eight.
21:39:08.7
HOT-2
seven hundred.
21:39:12.7
HOT-2
cabin pressure check and twenty four hour ice protection test complete.
cruise checklist complete. um-huh.
21:39:17.2
HOT-1
thanks. yeah we uh after they fixed it so-- we were already delayed. they
fixed it we were delayed a little bit more. no big deal.
21:39:24.0
HOT-2
yeah.
21:39:24.2
HOT-1
get in uh start up number two and we're doing the paperwork and all of a
sudden we get bing. look-- it looked-- it was engine lookup light. I went
oh crap that's not good. I looked up it was chip detect. right chip detect.
21:39:43.3
HOT-2
what's that?
21:39:43.7
HOT-1
what-- what that-- what that's doing is detecting chips of metal in the
engine.
21:39:48.4
HOT-2
oh.
INTRA-AIRCRAFT COMMUNICATION AIR-GROUND COMMUNICATION
TIME and TIME and
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CVR Factual Report
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21:39:50.2
HOT-1
and uh we were thinking aww crap. so I said grab the checklist real quick
and let's just go through it. well in the chip detect abnormal checklist
there's nothing pertaining to on the ground. it's all pertaining to in the air
so I said okay shut it down. called maintenance they came over they
cleaned out a little filter screen. they said it was probably carbon built up
blah blah blah.
21:40:05.3
ZNY-C
two eight charlie golf climb and maintain flight level two two zero.
21:40:09.8
N28CG
two zero zero for two two zero two eight charlie golf.
21:40:12.1
ZNY-C
and how would you describe the icing?
21:40:16.8
HOT-2
yeah.
21:40:17.4
HOT-1
they fel-- uh cleaned out this little carbon screen. did uh a runup check
observation. I kept everybody on the plane. told em what was going on.
man their eyes were you know they're all over here watching what they
were doing. but it was either that or they'd have to get bussed around get
out and bout the time that they'd get out they would bus em back around.
21:40:18.3
N28CG
yeah we'll call it about light to moderate rime.
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