Cold, hard, non-sugar-coated answers please. How many hours before a student should move on?

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Broccoli

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Broccoli
We’ve all heard of the fabled pilot who took 250 hours to get a PPL. That’s not a motivational thing. Cod, hard answers” After how many hours of not soloing should a student move on? I doubt anyone would want to tell a pre-solo student with 2,000 hours to stick with it, even if you might tell them to. Were is the point where you’ll still tell someone to stick with it but were you’re also thinking to yourself that they need to try something else?
 
I trained in quiet airspace, so take that into account if every flight is involving an hour of taxi time or something, but ballpark I would say: if you're not getting close to soloing in 20 hours (like, maybe haven't soloed yet, but see it as something that's actively coming up), I would try a different instructor. Maybe you just click with someone else's style better. If you've gone through three instructors that way (you're at 60 hours), maybe it's you... At that point, I would only continue if you think flying with an instructor is a fun hobby.
 
Depends on the situation. Are they flying 4x a week for 6 months and still sucking, or a 3hour session every month or so? Long breaks in training? What exactly are they sucking at, and do they know why they're sucking? What's the syllabus/school environment like? Have they flown with other instructors/schools? Are they doing ground sessions? The instructor(s) should be honest and realistic with them every step of the way. Clear, specific goals discussed before each flight. After a few debriefs (they ARE doing quality debriefs, right?) with no signs of actual or potential improvement, it should be pretty clear early on whether it's an early learning plateau or simply out of their wheelhouse

In contrast, there was another student at my 61 school when I was doing my PPL, old guy with 40ish hours IIRC and still couldn't manage the takeoff or straight-n-level Reaaally struggled but couldn't get it right. Ended up eventually admitting that he knew he didn't have what it takes, but he had lots time and money and didn't mind being an eternal student flying with CFIs. I doubt he ever solo'd after I left there, but hell, more power to him.
 
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A specific number? No. But, after a certain number of flights, if the student isn’t improving their skills, it’s time for the talk.

I know of an instructor who had a 50 hour non solo student. Turns out he bounced from instructor to instructor after a few flights as the instructor move to the airlines. He solo quickly and earned his ticket without trouble.
 
I'd say around 17 hours to solo to be reasonably competent. If it isn't very long from engine start to the practice area you also might be flying off a more difficult shorter runway, so that kind of evens out the time advantage compared to the larger airports with more forgiving runway lengths, but farther to fly to the practice area. If it takes much more than that and you are intelligent with good eyesight, then I'd say you aren't making a science of overcoming your learning challenges. Look at the Wright brothers — they soloed with zero time, but they made a science of learning how. Your CFI can only do so much.
 
I think it depends. How frequently one can fly. What the deficiencies are. Have they changed instructors. Hell, even what aircraft you're training in. I knew a guy that bought and learned in a c35 bonanza.... probably not the ideal trainer and probably took a bit longer to solo.
 
Wow some of you have high expectations. Iirc I was right about 20 hours to solo and around 60 to my checkride.

Now 100 in 6 months... it's time to assess why. Could be terrible instruction, interruptions, lack of aptitude, lack of desire...
 
If you were close at 35...I hope you have asked what you need to work on. Without specifics it could just be lip service and them not wanting to be the bad guy.

In any event I think it's time for a heart to heart conversation. They may be hesitant to be critical. Nobody wants to be the person to crush someone's dreams. But If you bring it up they may be more honest. Or maybe you really are "close". I'd hope they're giving you more than "close" and more what specifically you need work on. I'd reach out to your initial instructor and see what they say.
 
Broccoli said:
We’ve all heard of the fabled pilot who took 250 hours to get a PPL. That’s not a motivational thing. Cod, hard answers” After how many hours of not soloing should a student move on? I doubt anyone would want to tell a pre-solo student with 2,000 hours to stick with it, even if you might tell them to. Were is the point where you’ll still tell someone to stick with it but were you’re also thinking to yourself that they need to try something else?
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I can't imagine anyone who can pass a medical can't make it to solo. There should be a checkpoint every 10 hours or so, and evaluate. No one should give up without first identifying what the obstacles are. Then determine if those obstables are surmountable or not. If you conclude that there is no way you can overcome those obstacle, then give up. But giving up without an understanding of the obstaacles is dumb.
 
If you're changing CFI's often, and have had three different ones, then just ignore the "numbers expectations" entirely. With so many things changing, and so much unknown about you, it's impossible to put numbers (cold or otherwise) on this. Everyone is different: students and CFI's both.

As others are saying: it starts with a conversation.
 
Broccoli said:
No one wants to tell the student whose heart is in it and with the money to fly all she wants to move on. First school has too few CFIs and getting a spot is always a month out. Downside to being nice is no one wants to tell you bluntly.
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As a student you will know when you are being inspired and have the feeling of growing in your skillset. You will also realize the times you may have a setback or hit a snag in your development. At the end of the day the person you have to trust the most is yourself.

I understand the CFI building confidence and that you as the student don't yet know what you don't know but you have the ability to do your own research and take inventory of yourself. If it doesn't feel like it's working then it's time to have a serious conversation with the person in the mirror about how much you are getting for what you are giving. If it ain't working then "to thine own self be true" and figure out why that is ...
 
sarangan said:
I can't imagine anyone who can pass a medical can't make it to solo. There should be a checkpoint every 10 hours or so, and evaluate. No one should give up without first identifying what the obstacles are. Then determine if those obstables are surmountable or not. If you conclude that there is no way you can overcome those obstacle, then give up. But giving up without an understanding of the obstaacles is dumb.
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To expound a bit on this... And something I had a bit of a hurdle on. Fly the airplane. Don't let it fly you. Take control.
 
Broccoli said:
Enough to log somewhere in the area of 100 hours over 6 months. No breaks. First told was “close” at about 35, and the same since. Landings are decent (Can get the plane down without damaging anything), but not consistently perfect. No specifics beyond that. Highly praised for everything else. Got a couple independent evals outside the area, with very high praise. Just completely lost confidence since a treat can only be dangled before a pup for so long before the pup learns they aren’t getting it. Supportive environments. Yes, flown with three primary instructors (at different times) at two schools. Passed ground with flying colors, will actually be helping tutor other young student pilots for their tests. Goals always stated, afterward just told work on it more. About 60 hours’ worth of that.

Give me cross wind, very high wind, any condition, and I’ve got takeoffs nailed. In a 150 with me and a CFI, in a 172 with me and CFI, 172 with me and CFI and someone in the back seat, Decathlon… No problem whatsoever. I’ve been told by a DPE who did an eval in another state that my straight-and-level altitude and IAS were better than would be expected for a commercial checkride. Other evaluator has very high praise too. Cross-control stalls and accelerated stalls are my idea of fun (I know, commercial stuff, but I’ve been taught it anyway). I was told bluntly that the more hours you have, the more hesitant CFIs get, even if the reason for the hours isn’t your fault (deadly crash at the field, all of us needed at least a few flights to get over the nerves of seeing scorched runway, other inconsistencies in training methods) and includes non-lesson flights, like aerobatics. I know I’m not bad. Not perfect yet, but could have gotten there.

I already gave up on a PPL and am now just flying for fun. I’m fortunate that I can be an eternal wanna-be with a CFI, and if the family wants to go up, I can do that with a CFI. I’ve been able to take a friend up, with a CFI, of course. Yes, I want a PPL, but I also don’t want flying to be a discouraging negative by chasing something they not going to let me earn. I’m trying to prove a point to someone who is saying I shouldn’t give up on a PPL while I’m saying my hours are too high and there really isn’t a chance, better to find a way to still fly that’s positive since that’s what matters most. I just want to fly, even if those who could sign off don’t believe in me.
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Yeah, I wouldn't give up.
 
Broccoli said:
The obstacles? “Just work on it more.” Dumb as it sounds, I talk to the plane when flying her. She’s my buddy for that time, and she listens to me.
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My instructor taught me to talk to it and also to make it do what I wanted it to do. He taught me to be firm but gentle.
 
Broccoli said:
The obstacles? “Just work on it more.” Dumb as it sounds, I talk to the plane when flying her. She’s my buddy for that time, and she listens to me.
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I'd catch myself blowing altitude or heading a bit. Thats kind of what I meant. Took a bit for me to really grab hold of the airplane and control it instead of it control me.

"Just work on it more" is really vague and unhelpful
 
Long gaps early on in your training can really set you back big time. 100 hours over six months is a whole lot but how did you fly the 100 hours? Pretty steadily with 3+ flights per week or chopped with several weeks of breaks? I was ready to solo after about 20 hours. The day I was supposed to do my solo flight, the weather was bad and it didn't happen. My instructor and I were staying at the airport the entire day but the ceiling just wouldn't lift. Then, life happened and I had to take a three month long break from flying, move and get a new instructor. Once I restarted my training, despite the fact that the previous instructor was ready to let me loose, the three month long break set me back so much, it took another 15 hours before my new instructor let me solo. So, logbook wise, it took me over 35 hours of training to solo for the first time. I then took my check ride 15 hours later and passed with no issues. During training, it's all about being consistent. Heck, even after training it's all about being consistent. If I don't fly for over a month or so, I would want an instructor with me for a few landings in the pattern just to be sure.
 
Broccoli said:
Enough to log somewhere in the area of 100 hours over 6 months. No breaks.
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Based on your description, I would absolutely not give up. If you feel that confident about it, especially backed up by the praise of a DPE telling you you're exceeding test standards, you're clearly not a lost cause.

From what you said, it sounds like your flight school is either milking you for all you're worth, or they're just a ridiculously incompetent school. If all the CFIs there are too scared to sign anyone off for solo due to an unrelated event, they're not doing their jobs. Don't be afraid to be assertive and demand to know specifically why you cannot be signed off to solo. "Just work on it some more" is not a quality debrief; it should be just as detailed and objective-oriented as the pre-flight brief. You're either meeting the training objectives or you're not. Flying is expensive and time-consuming, you have a right to know specifically what standards they think you aren't meeting. Pilots always need to be open to valid criticism, but too many students get sheepish with wise almighty flight schools taking them for a ride. Remember, you're a learning student, but you're also a customer paying handsomely for their services.

I've kinda been where you are and I know how discouraging it is. Though I solo'd at about 20ish hours and flew almost every day for a while, my primary CFI moved away soon after he solo'd me. I then got caught up bouncing between 4 other instructors with busy schedules, some of which I did NOT get along with at all. Terribly inconsistent training, so I was thiiiis close to checkride for about 5 months, getting told the same "just work on it some more" with no clear direction on how to improve or even knowing when/who i'd fly with next, just that I wasn't good enough yet.

If I were you, I'd only give up throwing money at that school. Hop on some local flying Facebook groups and find a club and/or community-recommended independent CFI. Someone you can arrange a consistent schedule with to finish your training, which should go quickly given your description of the situation. I'd reckon you'll be solo'd after a couple of review flights, and signed off for checkride shortly thereafter, once you complete the required solo XC's.

Best of luck, fly safe!
 
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Daleandee said:
My instructor taught me to talk to it and also to make it do what I wanted it to do. He taught me to be firm but gentle.
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That's one thing that really got drilled into me during primary training, be gentle but deliberate. Many CFIs I've flown with in IR and CPL training have complimented me on smooth but positive control inputs. Really messed me up having to slow everything waaay down for lazy 8s lol.
 
I have a question… on a deserted island, just you a companion and a plane, would you take the plane and go flying for fun?

Would you feel confident taking your only friend and companion in the world for a flight with you?

Would you have to think about it, or would it be a no brainer?
 
If I may, it sounds like your training has not been geared toward getting you to solo.

Training on commercial level tasks? Training in a Decathlon? Being able to maintain straight and level better than commercial? While those are great, they are NOT what should be concentrated on or even trained with in an attempt to get your Private.

I'm thinking it may be to your advantage to go to yet a new FBO, find a new instructor and get a baseline eval. Get the eval specifically as it relates to what is needed to be able to solo, and what is needed to qualify you for your Private check ride. Then every flight from here on out should be to address those specific areas. You need work on landings (or whatever)? Then lets do a two hour lesson on just landings. They want to do stalls? Nope, let's do landings. They want to schedule some cool slow flight work? Nope, let's do landings. Keep it up until you've conquered whatever your holdup is. Laser focused on the issue.

If everything seems to be going well, but still no solo and you think it is because of your logbook showing 100+hrs, then I suggest "starting over". That is, get a new logbook, get yet another CFI, and go from there. You know what you know because you're an avid flight simmer. You also have watched tons of training videos on Sporty's and youtube, etc.

I'd still say keep at it.

Good luck.
 
This is a question that only you, the OP, can answer.

Still want a pilot's license? Keep going.

Getting tired of not being able to solo and feel like your wasting time? Stop.
 
At hour 15 I could tell it was going to be forever before I'd solo. I was having the same lesson over and over, which I'd already mastered (at least well enough to solo safely). Instructor would just say "we'll keep working on this for now". So I found another instructor. I solo'd 3 hours later.

That said, I do attribute my ability to handle crosswind landings without stress to his giving me 15 hours of doing nothing else at the beginning of my training.... My first solo was in a 10 knot crosswind, and it was no big deal. But, I knew it was time to move on to other things, so I did it without him. If I had it to do over again, I'd go back to him to learn to land in a heartbeat, but at 10 hours I'd switch instructors ;)
 
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Broccoli said:
The obstacles? “Just work on it more.” Dumb as it sounds, I talk to the plane when flying her. She’s my buddy for that time, and she listens to me.
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What exactly are they telling you to work on? If they aren't telling you something specific, they might as well not tell you anything at all. Can you tell what you need to work on? You don't have to know how to fix it, just what is wrong. Sometimes, it helps if you can say, "I know that I'm flaring too high. Can you help me figure out why I am doing that?"

And something super random that may or may not affect you, but that really affected me - how is your view out over the nose? I could fly beautiful patterns, hold perfect altitude, speed, and heading at the same time, flew the plane so smoothly my CFI joked I was putting her to sleep in the pattern, about 95% of my approaches were perfect...down to about twenty five or thirty feet above the runway. Turns out, I couldn't really see over the nose, so I was having a horrific time judging how high above the runway I was, and combined with a ground shyness over not having a good idea of where it was and when it was going to hit me, I couldn't get comfortable with how I was landing. None were dangerous, but very few were pretty. I spent a lot of hours flying before I got a cushion. I had six perfect landings the first flight with the cushion, and although I didn't solo right away, that was weather related.

Also, are you flying the same plane or switching between planes? My first ten hours were in a Skyhawk, and it took me quite a few hours to relearn positions of controls when I had to switch to an Archer.
 
If you've got that much time in the plane, and are even quasi-compentent I could have you soling in 3 lessons. Maybe 2.
 
My “getting close to solo says” involved a lot of pattern work in all kinds of conditions. I remember going to a neighboring airport with a runway that had a strong xwind and doing 10 landings, burning in that muscle memory. It sounds like your CFIs, for whatever reason, aren’t being honest about something. Normally, advice seems to be, “don’t worry about it. It happens when it happens”, and you learn the other aspects of flying. But this sounds like it’s getting in the way. Are you able to make position reports and maintain situational awareness in the pattern? Are you able to land safely, without the CFI touching or saying anything? Might be time for another talk with the CFI and make the solo be your next task.
 
It took 40 hours to get to solo, in my case! I had a brand-new CFI, and I think he was nervous about turning me loose. I thought I was ready well before that point (and, in hindsight, probably should have pushed the issue.) It takes a certain amount of 'boldness' to be a pilot (without, however over-doing that to the point of a hazardous attitude).
 
Broccoli said:
Enough to log somewhere in the area of 100 hours over 6 months. … In a 150 with me and a CFI, in a 172 with me and CFI, 172 with me and CFI and someone in the back seat, Decathlon… No problem whatsoever..
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Each new airframe effectively reset your solo milestone to zero. There is exactly zero reason to have a passenger onboard with a pre-solo student.

Broccoli said:
…Cross-control stalls and accelerated stalls are my idea of fun (I know, commercial stuff, but I’ve been taught it anyway)…. other inconsistencies in training methods and includes non-lesson flights, like aerobatics. I know I’m not bad. Not perfect yet, but could have gotten there.
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That bolded part right there is a symptom. The problem is you’re taking the choose your own adventure / squirrel method of training. Each excursion from the path towards solo has lengthened your journey. Find a syllabus/plan and follow it. Use the ACS as the proficiency standard to review your performance with the instructor.

Broccoli said:
…I already gave up on a PPL and am now just flying for fun.
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Sounds like you made that decision very early on, maybe even about the time of the mishap you referenced. No harm, no foul, but don’t complain about not achieving a fundamental training milestone.
 
I would ask your CFI point blank why they haven't soloed you-- if you get a BS answer and no specifics as to the limiting deficiencies, I'd take the earlier advice to switch flight schools entirely. If what you tell us is accurate concerning your situation and ability, IMO you should have soloed many, many hours ago. The bottom line is you need an honest assessment from the school, and you need to be honest with yourself as to your ability and your desire to continue.
 
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