Cockpit Firearm Discharge Damage

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poadeleted20

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FYI...here's what the hole looks like...
 

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It has to be said.......



Aw, that'll buff right out.

Interesting what can be found on the internet these days.
 
Good wad of bubblegum would patch that right up! :D

Didn't they use old coke cans for patches in the war for similar holes?
 
What I don't know is which seat the FFDO was in -- and if it was the right seat, y'all notice how close the captain came to losing something important?:hairraise:
 
Tristar said:
Good wad of bubblegum would patch that right up! :D

Didn't they use old coke cans for patches in the war for similar holes?
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I know a guy who made a whole new wing leading edge out of beer cans for a Twin Otter after having his engine blown apart by a surface to air missile in Angola (he was flying landmine victims for the Red Cross). Cool part is, he flew 100 nm on one engine to friendly territory after taking the SAM up the exhaust stack. Twin Otters are tough!
 
FAA's got him nailed now! A pressure hull penetration requires an engineering study before making the penetration!
 
Man in all seriousness, I wonder what that itty bitty hole is gonna cost to fix:dunno:
 
Well, my dad is a tv repairman, and he has an awesome set of tools.....
 
Still would have been cheaper to teach that cowboy how to handle a firearm:dunno:!
 
FredBedard said:
Still would have been cheaper to teach that cowboy how to handle a firearm:dunno:!
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He just got suspended. They can't find a good reason for "accidental" firing of the gun. Suspect mishandling. Right choice, seems to me.
He had been properly trained in weapon use and was authorized to carry. "Accidental" won't cut it here.
 
Albro said:
He just got suspended. They can't find a good reason for "accidental" firing of the gun. Suspect mishandling. Right choice, seems to me.
He had been properly trained in weapon use and was authorized to carry. "Accidental" won't cut it here.
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I wonder what the pilot's version of the story is? Is he saying it just went off by itself?
 
Weren't those guns supposed to use some new fangled ammo that was supposed to go through soft stuff (like terrorists), and shatter when it hit the airframe?

I personally suspect this idiot was showing off his gun, and simply f'ed up. I don't know what he was packing, but the thing should have had the safety on, not cocked (if possible), and preferably no round in the chamber. I see no reason for the pilot to carry cocked, and locked in the cockpit.

Pete
 
Speed said:
You haven't gone through the training program either. There is no safety on these weapons, and they are required to be carried cocked and loaded, with one in the chamber.
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I haven't been through the program either, but I'm told the issued pistol is an HK USP compact variant. I've got a USP and it does indeed have a safety and at least my version is designed to be carried with one in the chamber and either hammer down to the half cocked position by using the decocker or carried cocked and locked with the hammer all the way back and safety engaged. Are the pilots issued a different variant of the USP that is DAO (double action only) without a safety? I've never seen nor heard of one of these, but that doesn't mean much.
 
Anthony said:
Are the pilots issued a different variant of the USP that is DAO (double action only) without a safety? I've never seen nor heard of one of these, but that doesn't mean much.
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Yes they are. This is straight from my HK LEM owners manual:

The Law Enforcement Modification (LEM) is a series of unique trigger mechanism parts created specifically to improve the quality and reduce the weight of the DAO trigger pull in the USP pistol. With these parts installed the USP pistol can be fired like the standard DAO USP pistol where every round is fired by simply pulling the trigger fully rearward with the hammer starting at the forward rest position. There are no external decocking or safety levers present or required.
 
1. DA/SA with "safe" position and control lever (manual safety/decocking lever) on left side of frame
2. DA/SA with "safe" position and control lever
Variants 1 and 2 allow the user to carry the pistol in a single-action mode (cocked and locked) with the manual safety engaged. This same pistol, without modification, can be carried in double-action mode, with or without the manual safety engaged.
3. DA/SA without "safe" position with control lever (decocking lever) on the left side of frame
4. DA/SA without "safe" position with control lever (decocking lever) on the right side of frame
Variants 3 and 4 provides the user with a frame-mounted decocking lever that does not have the "safe" position. This combination only allows the hammer to be lowered from SA position to DA position. It does not provide the "safe" position to prevent the pistol from firing when the trigger is pulled.
5. DA-Only with "safe" position and control lever (manual safety) on the left side of frame
6. DA-Only with "safe" position and control lever (manual safety) on the right side of frame
7. DA-Only without control lever (no safety/decocking lever)
For the DA-Only user, variants 5, 6, and 7 of the USP operate as double action only pistol with a bobbed hammer always returning to the DA position (forward) after each shot is fired. To fire each shot the trigger must be pulled through the smooth DA trigger pull. Variants 5 and 6 have a manual safety lever.
No control lever is provided on variant 7.
9. DA/SA with "safe" position and control lever (manual safety) on the left side of frame
10. DA/SA with "safe" position and control lever (manual safety) on the right side of frame
Variants 9 and 10 allow the user to carry the pistol in a single-action mode (cocked and locked) with the manual safety engaged. Unlike variants 9 and 10 [sic], the control lever can not be used to decock the hammer. These variants are the ideal choice for users who prefer shooting the pistol in SA mode with the thumb placed on top of the manual safety. This same pistol, without modification, can be carried in double-action mode, with or without the manual safety engaged, and provides second primer strike ability to single-action shooters.
 
Hmm If it has a Dual Action Only trigger, unless there was some horrible malfunction of the gun (Unlikely, but possible nonetheless), then how in the hell do you get an accidental discharge without fully pulling the trigger?

Pete
 
So that's the LEM trigger. They are not very common, and I've never seen one. Most HK USP have the version 3 trigger like mine. If its DAO, then its got a pretty long trigger pull.
 
Speed said:
That's a good question...

This is from another forum I'm on.
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[FONT=geneva,arial]
The FFDO procedures require that a combination padlock be placed inside the trigger guard of a loaded firearm. The problem is that the pilot can’t even see the trigger as he places the shackle through the small hole in the holster. If the gun is shifted even slightly the padlock can cause the trigger to be pulled. The holster has to be locked and unlocked every time the FFDO enters or leaves the cockpit. The unnecessary action increases likelihood of a tragedy... [/FONT]
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The more you screw around with something the more likely it's gonna bite ya.

The holster locks are a stupid idea.
 
KennyFlys said:
[FONT=geneva,arial]
The more you screw around with something the more likely it's gonna bite ya.

The holster locks are a stupid idea.
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X2. That is a RIDICULOUS procedure and needs to be stopped!
 
Speed said:
The FFDO procedures require that a combination padlock be placed inside the trigger guard of a loaded firearm. The problem is that the pilot can’t even see the trigger as he places the shackle through the small hole in the holster. If the gun is shifted even slightly the padlock can cause the trigger to be pulled. The holster has to be locked and unlocked every time the FFDO enters or leaves the cockpit. The unnecessary action increases likelihood of a tragedy...
Click to expand...

Good lord. It would have been a heck of lot cheaper (considering the cost of repairing the damage to the aircraft this stupid policy probably caused) and a $#@% of a lot safer to just put 1 pistol size gun locker in the cockpit for crying out loud. Works thousands of times a day going in and out of jails, no reason it won't work for going in and out of a cockpit.
 
ausrere said:
Good lord. It would have been a heck of lot cheaper (considering the cost of repairing the damage to the aircraft this stupid policy probably caused) and a $#@% of a lot safer to just put 1 pistol size gun locker in the cockpit for crying out loud. Works thousands of times a day going in and out of jails, no reason it won't work for going in and out of a cockpit.
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Exactly, and it would be a heck of a lot more comfortable.
 
Back in the late 70's Korean Airilines had already added a bullet proof second door to the cockpit. They also carried flack blankets and the cockpit crew carried a brief case with I believe either a .45 or a 9mm. They did not screw around.
Ron
 
I carry a concealed .40cal and even with it being a double-action, I NEVER carry it with one in the chamber....yet, I never carry it on me in the airplane either.
One night after a XC, I exited a P28A-161 and my student came out after and accidentaly dropped his .45cal out of his coat pocket, striking the airplane wing and cocking itself....point of the whole story, if you carry a weapon, have absolute control over it AT ALL TIMES.
Duct tape fixes everything.
 
WApilot said:
I carry a concealed .40cal and even with it being a double-action, I NEVER carry it with one in the chamber.
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To each his own, but not carrying one in the chamber vastly reduces your ability to defend yourself. Criminals typically don't give you time to rack the slide. Modern pistols like the HK USP are designed to be carried safely with a round in the chamber IF you don't pull the trigger. I think the whole padlock holster issue is a huge factor in this ND.
 
Yeah, I don't get the locked holster thing. If they really want to secure the weapon put it in a locked box where you don't have to put something through the trigger. IMHO putting a trigger lock on a DA only gun (apparently without a manual safety catch) is an accident waiting to happen AGAIN.

Pete
 
Anthony said:
To each his own, but not carrying one in the chamber vastly reduces your ability to defend yourself.
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Agreed. I have an HK USP Compact 9mm. It's carried with one in
the chamber .. with the safety on.
 
RogerT said:
It's carried with one in
the chamber ...
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The padlock on the trigger makes having one in the chamber absolutely irrelevant. It's clear that the TSA doesn't feel time to react is a factor.

If the pilot has enough time to remove the trigger lock, the minimal amount of time required to cycle the action to chamber a round is not a factor.

Greg
CCW Permit Holder - who carries with one in the chamber....
 
ggroves said:
The padlock on the trigger makes having one in the chamber absolutely irrelevant. It's clear that the TSA doesn't feel time to react is a factor.

If the pilot has enough time to remove the trigger lock, the minimal amount of time required to cycle the action to chamber a round is not a factor.

Greg
CCW Permit Holder - who carries with one in the chamber....
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They don't have the lock in during the flight, only before/after or any time they're not in the cockpit. I don't think these guys are going to have any issue with reaction time during the flight.
 
"Hey - we're the government. Logic has no place here."
 
KennyFlys said:
Well, it's not like I'm picking up any knowledge from the lot of ya on this forum! :)
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Well, this is one subject on which Scott and I are in full agreement. Kip Hawley is an idiot. And TSA is a waste of taxpayers' money. They don't make me feel any safer when I ride the aluminum mailing tubes.
 
Ghery said:
Well, this is one subject on which Scott and I are in full agreement. Kip Hawley is an idiot. And TSA is a waste of taxpayers' money. They don't make me feel any safer when I ride the aluminum mailing tubes.
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Ditto. In fact, I pretty much rate the "screening" done at terminals as harassment.
 
Seem to me that if you are going to require such a draconian measure as a padlock through the trigger then you had better be sure that any of the weapons that are to be used in such a manner could not possibly ever become ready to fire. To do any less is negligence on the part of the agency that developed the requirements.
 
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