Cloud Nine's New Plane

I have a couple thousand hours in a 414. Yes, it is slower than a 310, but it will effortlessly fly in the mid and upper teens. I regularly flight planned 185 KTAS at 30 GPH and got that. I would regularly be up to FL220 going over the Rockies. And the pressurization made it a comfortable flight.

The 414 has a better single engine service ceiling than the 421. That always made me feel better in the 414 than the 421 over tall hills at night. And maintenance will be a little easier without the gear reduction box for the props. But the 421 was much quieter inside at cruise.

If I had a choice and money was not a factor I would take the 425 Conquest any day for a daily driver.
 
Zeldman said:
I have a couple thousand hours in a 414. Yes, it is slower than a 310, but it will effortlessly fly in the mid and upper teens. I regularly flight planned 185 KTAS at 30 GPH and got that. I would regularly be up to FL220 going over the Rockies. And the pressurization made it a comfortable flight.
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Just curious so that I have another data point - what altitude did you plan 185 @ 30, and was it a straight 414 or a RAM conversion? (if RAM, which one?)
 
Plane like that deserves to be flown; glad to see its in the hands of someone that can make that happen again!

But it does make me think that when I die I want to come back as one of "Ted's dogs". They'll be riding better than I do in this life :D
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Just curious so that I have another data point - what altitude did you plan 185 @ 30, and was it a straight 414 or a RAM conversion? (if RAM, which one?)
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Ooooops, it should have read, "flight plan at 40 GPH." That's what I get for sitting here in the dark and not proof reading....sorry for any confusion. We would realistically get around 36-38 GPH.

Usually we flew between 14,000 to 18,000 MSL., but I would not hesitate to get into the flight levels if I needed to, but it did not get there quickly. It was a straight 414A. It helped that the airport was at 6500 feet.
 
GRG55 said:
Plane like that deserves to be flown; glad to see its in the hands of someone that can make that happen again!

But it does make me think that when I die I want to come back as one of "Ted's dogs". They'll be riding better than I do in this life :D
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Well come on over, we'll stuff you in a cage, and you can go for a ride. :D

Zeldman said:
Ooooops, it should have read, "flight plan at 40 GPH." That's what I get for sitting here in the dark and not proof reading....sorry for any confusion. We would realistically get around 36-38 GPH.

Usually we flew between 14,000 to 18,000 MSL., but I would not hesitate to get into the flight levels if I needed to, but it did not get there quickly. It was a straight 414A. It helped that the airport was at 6500 feet.
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Gotcha. Sounds like you were flying ROP for those numbers. That lines up pretty closely with what I've heard from others.

LOP, a straight 414 (non-A so tip tanks and shorter wings, but same engines) I've heard reports of ~27 GPH @ 180-182. A RAM VII I've heard of doing a few knots slower at that same fuel burn LOP. This makes sense because of the scoops.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
<SNIP>

The Cheyenne market has the potential to get to where I could do a similar swap (sell the 414 once I fix it up for basically the price as a fixer-upper Cheyenne), but I don't see the Conquest market doing that. Also, the airplane choice is driven by mission, so our mission would have to support it. Fuel prices could make a strong argument in favor of a turbine (given the cheap cost of Jet-A vs. 100LL), so at that point it has to do with distance, maintenance, etc. I don't see ever getting a jet. Many have made the argument that they can operate a turboprop for the same price as a 414/421. I have heard nobody make that argument with a jet.
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After rummaging around Controller and Trade a Plane, it looks like a lot of people believe the same thing, as there are more 421s for sale than any other twin Cessna. Some of the pre - C models are going for less than what I would think their engines would be worth. http://www.trade-a-plane.com/search...model=421A&listing_id=2152244&s-type=aircraft
 
FormerHangie said:
After rummaging around Controller and Trade a Plane, it looks like a lot of people believe the same thing, as there are more 421s for sale than any other twin Cessna. Some of the pre - C models are going for less than what I would think their engines would be worth. http://www.trade-a-plane.com/search...model=421A&listing_id=2152244&s-type=aircraft
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The 421 market for anything other than a C has taken a nosedive. I could have purchased a 421B for less than this 414, and gotten the long nose baggage and more power per side. My reasons for choosing the 414 were its better efficiency (those big nacelles for the GTSIOs add drag) and I believe better engine reliability.
 
Isn't the geared engines the same reason nobody wants a Duke?
 
GRG55 said:
Isn't the geared engines the same reason nobody wants a Duke?
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The Duke doesn't have geared engines, it has TIO-541 Lycomings. The engines never matured and are prone to issuess.
 
Need some company on some of those flights from a former 402 driver?
 
Ted, very nice! It will be interesting to see what you're flying another 10 years down the road.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Need some company on some of those flights from a former 402 driver?
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Always. Will keep you posted.

Bill Jennings said:
Ted, very nice! It will be interesting to see what you're flying another 10 years down the road.
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When I got the Aztec, I thought I'd keep it forever. When the 310 got donated, I thought Cloud Nine would keep it forever. I don't expect that we'll keep this plane forever, so maybe that means they'll have to pry it from my cold, dead hands.
 
Wow, a few days out of POA and Ted up and buys another airplane. Congrats on the new ride Ted, I am sure you will have it like brand new in no time at all.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
The Duke doesn't have geared engines, it has TIO-541 Lycomings. The engines never matured and are prone to issuess.
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Nothin' worse than an immature engine that refuses to grow up. :D

Seriously, learned something tonight. I was told some time back the Duke engines were geared and that was the source of the reputation. Interesting how much misinformation pilots can trade around as enduring fact...at the airport cafe. ;)
 
GRG55 said:
Nothin' worse than an immature engine that refuses to grow up. :D

Seriously, learned something tonight. I was told some time back the Duke engines were geared and that was the source of the reputation. Interesting how much misinformation pilots can trade around as enduring fact...at the airport cafe. ;)
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The TIGO-541 (geared) was in the P-Navajo. The 541 in general was supposed to be the next generation engine that replaced the 540. However it didn't get the chance to evolve like the 540 did. Really, I think the 540 was better anyway - the 541 more resembled a Continental in the bad ways.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
The TIGO-541 (geared) was in the P-Navajo. The 541 in general was supposed to be the next generation engine that replaced the 540. However it didn't get the chance to evolve like the 540 did. Really, I think the 540 was better anyway - the 541 more resembled a Continental in the bad ways.
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It would appear there's a limit to the output that can be achieved with some semblance of reliability from a given displacement. The Lycoming 540 family of engines has a pretty good reputation, and the 250 hp versions in the Aztec are not highly stressed examples, which is one reason I chose the Aztec over some alternatives. 380 hp out of the Duke engines seems pretty demanding.

Congrats on Cloud Nine's 7th!
 
GRG55 said:
It would appear there's a limit to the output that can be achieved with some semblance of reliability from a given displacement. The Lycoming 540 family of engines has a pretty good reputation, and the 250 hp versions in the Aztec are not highly stressed examples, which is one reason I chose the Aztec over some alternatives. 380 hp out of the Duke engines seems pretty demanding.

Congrats on Cloud Nine's 7th!
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Thanks! :)

There is some truth to that, but keep in mind that the Chieftain engines (350 HP 540s) are some of the most reliable in the industry. There are a lot of factors that go into it. The 541 had a lot of complexity and some fundamental design issues.
 
Aerostar 700 or Superstars also had 350hp IO-540. Pretty reliable, actually.
 
Yet Contis can't seem to reliably extract 310hp out of 550 without requiring a chute :D

Where Lyco porked it was on the siamese mag and the -76 series O-320/360 (O-320-H, and O-360-E models that incorporated the same crappy cam and valve arrangement). And then they put siamese mags on the D-suffix variants. Yikes. I fly at night on a single with family on board, but I won't fly behind a siamese mag. It's a shame; many sweet airplanes fly with them, with no option to swap the accessory case to 2x single mags (thanks, FAA...). We all draw our line in the sand I guess.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Where Lyco porked it was on the siamese mag and the -76 series O-320/360 (O-320-H, and O-360-E models that incorporated the same crappy cam and valve arrangement). And then they put siamese mags on the D-suffix variants. Yikes. I fly at night on a single with family on board, but I won't fly behind a siamese mag. It's a shame; many sweet airplanes fly with them, with no option to swap the accessory case to 2x single mags (thanks, FAA...). We all draw our line in the sand I guess.
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I agree that the "dual mag" (or siamese as you call it) was a bad design. It's in a large number of aircraft types, and in my opinion offers nothing positive but does have a lot of bad failure modes.

One point, though - it's not quite so simple as "swapping the accessory case". Really, you'd just need to install an engine that didn't have the "D" at the end of the designation (which means dual mag). Some aircraft do have STCs that allow this. For example, Chieftains can have an (L)TIO-540-J2B replace the (L)TIO-540-J2BD. Colemill did that as part of the Panther conversion.

Both Lycoming and Continental have their positives and negatives, just like with any great rivalry (Ford vs. Chevy, Cessna vs. Piper vs. Beech, etc.). My ideal engine would have the best design aspects from both.
 
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