Clock for IFR

50kttailwind

50kttailwind

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50kttailwind
Hi everyone,

New to us 182H has everything needed to satisfy IFR certification except a clock. Garmin GNS530 and the old KT76A transponder (with no clock obviously).

Everything I read says the timer in the 530 isn’t good enough. We also don’t have a place to install a clock on the panel. Every spot has an instrument.

My next step is calling some local avionics shops for ideas. Can anyone on here recommend some solutions? Hoping to somehow solve this cheaply before leaping in to something like a new garmin transponder that will solve this for a lot of money.
 
There is a letter of interpretation somewhere that allows the clock on a GPS or transponder to meet the requirements. I printed it off and stuck it in my glove box for my IR checkride. I can’t seem to find it online at the moment.
 
50kttailwind said:
Everything I read says the timer in the 530 isn’t good enough.
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The timer may not be, but I thought the 530 could display a clock format that met the requirements of Part 91? There is guidance that states that this type clock display meets the requirements.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
There is a letter of interpretation somewhere that allows the clock on a GPS or transponder to meet the requirements. I printed it off and stuck it in my glove box for my IR checkride. I can’t seem to find it online at the moment.
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Oh wow that would be amazing! If you find it, please let me know! If you can't, is it possible to take a picture of it and post it? That would save us big time.
 
Bell206 said:
The timer may not be, but I thought the 530 could display a clock format that met the requirements of Part 91? There is guidance that states that this type clock display meets the requirements.
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I haven't tried to display the clock. Is there a way to display it all the time on the 530?
 
Gotta be on all the time, and gotta have seconds.
 
The panel is so full on a 182 there no room for a clock? That is hard to visualize.
 
Looks like we have the clock requirement on the satellite page.
 

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Clip4 said:
The panel is so full on a 182 there no room for a clock? That is hard to visualize.
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No obvious room anyway. Installing a clock would definitely need a new cutout somewhere. Desperately trying to avoid that.
 
Just for points of data, I asked 3 DPE's and got 2 "the gps is enough" and one "it's not enough". I found a separate clock because I was having trouble scheduling a DPE so I figured I'd play it safe and not worry if the one that worked out cared.
 
Bell206 said:
Did they remove the OEM clock at one time? It was only VFR prior to you buying it? Seems odd you have no installed clock in a 182.
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Yeah they overhauled the entire panel. Engine monitor installed. The clock disappeared somewhere along the journey.
 
I think a radio shack timer velcroed to the panel could work….?
 
dans2992 said:
I think a radio shack timer velcroed to the panel could work….?
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A velcro installation is pretty universally not considered "permanent".
 
Salty said:
Just for points of data, I asked 3 DPE's and got 2 "the gps is enough" and one "it's not enough". I found a separate clock because I was having trouble scheduling a DPE so I figured I'd play it safe and not worry if the one that worked out cared.
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The legal interpretation posted above seems to clarify it. Apparently any permanent device like a radio or transponder with clock functionality satisfies it. As long as you can get hours:minutes:seconds.
 
50kttailwind said:
The legal interpretation posted above seems to clarify it. Apparently any permanent device like a radio or transponder with clock functionality satisfies it. As long as you can get hours:minutes:seconds.
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Just a word of warning. It doesn't matter how *you* interpret that letter, it matters how the DPE interprets it.
 
50kttailwind said:
Yeah they overhauled the entire panel. Engine monitor installed. The clock disappeared somewhere along the journey.
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If the aircraft was IFR before the panel "upgrade" can't see them going backwards. Perhaps review the documentation to see if they mention the clock function change. Does the engine monitor have a clock that can be displayed? Might help if you post a picture of your panel? But something sure seems amiss here. In all the panels I reconfigured never left out the basic instruments or reduced the capabilities.
 
Salty said:
Just a word of warning. It doesn't matter how *you* interpret that letter, it matters how the DPE interprets it.
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Yep. I’ll make sure my instructor asks ahead of time. The examiners in the area all have good relationships with instructors.
 
Bell206 said:
If the aircraft was IFR before the panel "upgrade" can't see them going backwards. Perhaps review the documentation to see if they mention the clock function change. Does the engine monitor have a clock that can be displayed? Might help if you post a picture of your panel? But something sure seems amiss here. In all the panels I reconfigured never left out the basic instruments or reduced the capabilities.
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I can try to grab pics. Last owners were definitely filing and flying IMC. So they thought they were legal.
 
50kttailwind said:
Yep. I’ll make sure my instructor asks ahead of time. The examiners in the area all have good relationships with instructors.
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I’d contact the dpe directly. It’s always good to create a relationship with them before the checkride.
 
Just as a random data point, I don't think I've ever flown in a rental airplane with a working clock.
 
If you swapped the 530 for an Avidyne IFD 540 you would be set. There is a programable datablock function that allows you to put a clock with either local or utc time in one of the datablock's so it is always visible. I do realize that might cost more than cutting a new hole for a clock and installing it. It is a pretty cool function of the IFD though.
 
Perhaps there is a difference between the legal requirement and the use of a clock during the checkride.

In my case, I have several instruments that can/do display the required clock but none are used in flight. I use the timer on my Foreflighted iPad.

Just sayin’


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The uavionix av20 does 10 or 12 things including clock for $800 and only needs ~2” in the panel (fits in Cessna clock hole you’d have if your panel wasn’t re-done) fwiw
 
Salty said:
Just a word of warning. It doesn't matter how *you* interpret that letter, it matters how the DPE interprets it.
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What is there to interpret? The letter explicitly says a GPS with a permanent clock display is enough.
 
Lindberg said:
What is there to interpret? The letter explicitly says a GPS with a permanent clock display is enough.
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The clock on the 430 is permanent, but not always visible. Some dpes say not being permanently visible means it’s not permanent, some say it’s mounted permanently, and it has seconds, so it’s good enough. I asked three dpe’s and got two different interpretations.
 
Salty said:
The clock on the 430 is permanent, but not always visible. Some dpes say not being permanently visible means it’s not permanent, some say it’s mounted permanently, and it has seconds, so it’s good enough. I asked three dpe’s and got two different interpretations.
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The ones who say it has to always be visible seem to be correct per the FAA's letter. The display must be permanent, not just the instrument:
Another installed appliance with a permanent clock display that meets the requirements of § 91.205(d)(6) that displays "hours, minutes, and seconds with a sweep-second pointer or digital presentation," is adequate for the purposes of this regulation.
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So what if you have a permanent clock installed to meet the requirement that is working like the Cessna 8 day wind up clock. But you chose to use the kitchen timer you have Velcro’ed becaUe it’s easier, you can set timer quickly snd it makes noise. There is nothing wrong which which clock you use right?
 
This really is an outdated requirement that should go away. Almost everyone has something to tell the time with them in the plane.
 
TommyG said:
This really is an outdated requirement that should go away. Almost everyone has something to tell the time with them in the plane.
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Like “one thousand one, one thousand two…. One thousand 60” for example?
 
TommyG said:
This really is an outdated requirement that should go away. Almost everyone has something to tell the time with them in the plane.
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FYI: just like mag compasses it's not a point of being outdated as how do you enforce it. For example, there are still a number of aircraft that fly in the NAS without electrical systems. Even the ADSB rules had to make an exception for this as well. So when it comes to deciding what is actually "outdated" it would need to cover the "entire" aircraft fleet that uses the NAS. It is what it is.
 
Bill Watson said:
Perhaps there is a difference between the legal requirement and the use of a clock during the checkride.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
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If you want to be legal during and after the checkride, you'll need a permanent clock. It's the C in GRABCARD
 
WDD said:
If you want to be legal during and after the checkride, you'll need a permanent clock. It's the C in GRABCARD
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That doesn’t mean you are required to USE it.
 
WDD said:
If you want to be legal during and after the checkride, you'll need a permanent clock. It's the C in GRABCARD
Click to expand...

Unless the checkride is done under IFR, then, no. The clock isn’t required. The DPE will probably make it a point of conversation.
If that same plane (without a permanent clock) was used for the long dual IFR training flight, then the DPE may find that very interesting.


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