Clock for IFR

Salty said:
That doesn’t mean you are required to USE it.
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I thought you were making the distinction between a plane for Check ride vs normal IFR flying.

You’re right - you have to have it - but not use it.
 
Unless you have two 530’s and leave one on the page with the clock at all times. ;)
 
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Ryan F. said:
Short form: GNS530 - no go for sole, installed legal IFR clock
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This is why it's one of the most obsolete, dumbest rules in the book, and why I could never be a DPE*.

Applicant shows up with a plane with 5 or more different time keeping devices on it or in it. Garmin 530, Garmin 430, GTX 345, iPad, phone, watch, kitchen timer, whatever. Oh, sorry, your plane isn't IFR legal because it doesn't have a device which is extremely seldomly used for any real IFR navigation anymore. We'll have to reschedule the checkride. Because it doesn't have a 40-year-old windup clock.

I don't remember the last time I used a clock for any non-training IFR navigation or ATC purpose where I needed the precision to the second. In fact, the only routine thing is IFR releases - but for that, I'm looking at my watch to see how much time I have left. And precision to the minute is sufficient.

Added to that, we now have all these GPS-synced clocks all around the cockpit, but nope, we still need that old user-set clock with questionable precision. A wind-up clock is even legal, when the billions-of-dollars satellite system we have is not.

The only thing you would really need to know seconds for is timing a holding pattern or timing for the MAP, both of which are pretty obsolete. And since even then you only need those for a couple of minutes at a time, you could easily bring up a page on the GPS. Or start your stopwatch. Or kitchen timer. It's not like that kitchen timer is too inaccurate.

Yes, it's 100% the rule. But it's an archaic, ridiculous requirement in 2021.

* I realized a few years ago that I don't have the personality to be a DPE. I did OSHA compliance for 9 of the longest months of my life and hated it. A man's got to know his limitations.
 
Where is the reference that the checkride plane -HAS- to be IFR current/legal/whatever to take an instrument rating checkride under Visual Flight Rules?


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I bought this on eBay since mine didn’t work. It loses about 3 minutes a day, but hey, I’m legal. Lol

EB9BD134-FD8A-4D44-BDAF-3042F50AA1B8.jpeg
 
crash7 said:
Where is the reference that the checkride plane -HAS- to be IFR current/legal/whatever to take an instrument rating checkride under Visual Flight Rules?
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Your question is a bit too loosely worded to answer precisely, so I'll keep it organized around the discussion here (equipment requirements for the practical test, specifically a clock.)
  • 14 CFR 61.45(b)(1)(i) - "Except as provided in paragraph (b)(2) of this section, an aircraft used for a practical test must have - (i) The equipment for each area of operation required for the practical test."
  • Appendix 7 of the Instrument Rating - Airplane Airman Certification Standards states (p. A-15) "the aircraft must: ... Be capable of performing all Areas of Operation appropriate to the rating sought and have no operating limitations, which prohibit its use in any of the Area of Operation, required for the practical test."
  • In the case of a the "clock discussion," there are numerous tasks within the IRA ACS requiring its correct and legal installation.
    • Task II.C. Instrument Flight Deck Check - IR.II.C.K2, "IFR airworthiness, to include airplane inspection requirements and required equipment for IFR flight."
    • Task VI.A. Nonprecision Approach - IR.VI.A.S12, "For the final approach segment, maintain no more than a ¾-scale deflection of the CDI, maintain airspeed ±10 knots, and altitude, if applicable, above MDA, +100/-0 feet, to the Visual Descent Point (VDP) or Missed Approach Point (MAP)." (for non-precision approaches requiring time to identify the MAP, this task cannot be accomplished without an installed and legal clock. This does not require the clock to be used; another timekeeping device may be used intead. It simply must be installed. This task also has the following note attached to the Objective section: "Note: See Appendix 7: Aircraft, Equipment, and Operational Requirements & Limitations for related considerations."
    • Task VI.C. Missed Approach - IR.VI.C.S1, "Promptly initiate the missed approach procedure and report it to ATC."
    • Task VII. A. Loss of Communications - IR.VII.A.S4, "Determine appropriate time to begin an approach."
 
RussR said:
Yes, it's 100% the rule. But it's an archaic, ridiculous requirement in 2021.
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All that really matters to me from a practical test perspective is that it's understood what the equipment requirements are and that the aircraft as presented is legal and airworthy for the operation. Out of all of the instrument rating practical tests I've administered so far, this has never been an issue. The aircraft presented to me have always had a working, legal clock. An applicant has never insisted on the use of the timer on his iPad or wristwatch, or an inappropriate device such as a clock presentation contained deep within the pages of a GNS 530, in the absence of a legal installed clock in the aircraft. It appears to be mostly an imagined message board conversation or scenario that doesn't actually happen.

I hear your points on the notion that this equipment requirement is archaic, and maybe it is, but it's also easy to see it from ingrained perspectives and forget there are other use needs to consider. Just this year I administered an IRA practical test for an applicant who presented an aircraft with dual VOR/LOC receivers, DME, and ADF... no IFR GPS. Not even an iPad. The timer function on the davtron digital clock was used extensively on that flight, and although an additional timekeeping device would have been satisfactory, at the bare minimum, this airplane had all of the installed equipment needed even if the pilot wasn't wearing a watch or carrying a portable timer. That's sort of the point of such requirements in my opinion - a basic standard which isn't violated, no matter how advanced or basic the subject aircraft may be. At the very least, the pilot will have a clock available, and even in the modern day and age that is a highly useful device for all aviation operations, and especially instrument flying.
 
Ryan F. said:
It appears to be mostly an imagined message board conversation or scenario that doesn't actually happen.
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Well, apparently it is happening for the OP.

At the very least, the pilot will have a clock available, and even in the modern day and age that is a highly useful device for all aviation operations, and especially instrument flying.
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Absolutely. A clock serves several necessary functions for IFR. So require a clock be available for IFR flight. No problem with that. Your applicant with VOR/LOC etc needed a clock.

But requiring the clock be installed in the panel and visible continuously? That seems archaic and of an era when knowing the time wasn't as ubiquitous as it is now. Like many people, I used to time approaches with a kitchen timer. Just as accurate, if not moreso, than the one in the panel.
 
RussR said:
But requiring the clock be installed in the panel and visible continuously?
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Is it though? Some flexibility has appeared on this over the years. It's possible to place clocks in the panel which have other useful functions and the clock isn't always being presented. uAvionix's AV-20S can be installed as a clock but its features include AOA, G-Meter, Bus voltage, OAT, and more. The clock presentation does not need to be displayed at all times. My Davtron has some of those functions (bus voltage and OAT) and nowadays there are USB power ports being built into them, etc.

The other threads I referenced dove pretty deeply into this subject so I won't rehash them here. Those threads got into installed appliances, simple replacement clocks, and so on. There are quite a few nuances which have led to some confusion.

It's not my intent to disagree with you on a practical level about the useful application of portable devices which are completely adequate for keeping time. That's why their use is permitted. I'm simply looking at the logic of why an installed clock is required. There are infinite combinations of aircraft and equipment combinations. We can't assume other devices will be available in the absence of one which is currently required. That's why I don't see a good reason not to require an installed clock under the provisions described in regulation and Letters. Elsewise we'd be looking at requiring a pilot to wear a watch, then what sort of watch would be approved, or if it's a portable device, is the portable device charged or not, is it plugged into ship power, etc. etc. Sort of a never ending rabbit hole. I think we all accept that accurate timekeeping is an important function for instrument flight, and the simple way to make sure that is so from a regulatory perspective is to require one be installed in the aircraft.
 
If you simply don't have any place to panel-mount a clock, how about one installed in the yoke? Probably won't be "inexpensive" though, if your yoke is not already set up for a clock.
 
Ryan F. said:
The clock presentation does not need to be displayed at all times.
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How is this functionally different than the clock in a GNS 430?

It's not my intent to disagree with you on a practical level about the useful application of portable devices which are completely adequate for keeping time.
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I don't think we're disagreeing at all on that point.

That's why their use is permitted. I'm simply looking at the logic of why an installed clock is required. There are infinite combinations of aircraft and equipment combinations. We can't assume other devices will be available in the absence of one which is currently required. That's why I don't see a good reason not to require an installed clock under the provisions described in regulation and Letters. Elsewise we'd be looking at requiring a pilot to wear a watch, then what sort of watch would be approved, or if it's a portable device, is the portable device charged or not, is it plugged into ship power, etc. etc. Sort of a never ending rabbit hole. I think we all accept that accurate timekeeping is an important function for instrument flight, and the simple way to make sure that is so from a regulatory perspective is to require one be installed in the aircraft.
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I'm okay with requiring a clock to be installed. But I think any that are accessible through some other device should be perfectly fine, especially when considering the very small number of times they're actually used, at least in my experience.

And as far as allowing watches or whatever and having to regulate charge status, we already defer to the pilot's judgment in other similar places. Perfect example - oxygen. There is no regulation that says how much has to be on board (for light GA), or whether the bottle must be full before takeoff, etc. The pilot is responsible to make sure there's enough.
 
RussR said:
And as far as allowing watches or whatever and having to regulate charge status, we already defer to the pilot's judgment in other similar places. Perfect example - oxygen. There is no regulation that says how much has to be on board (for light GA), or whether the bottle must be full before takeoff, etc. The pilot is responsible to make sure there's enough.
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Or fuel, or required documentation, etc, etc...
 
Reading the earlier linked thread, am I to understand that the digital timer up/down function of the Garmin Transponders (327, 330, 345, etc) would meet this requirement because they are a HH:MM:SS digital presentation?
 
RussR said:
How is this functionally different than the clock in a GNS 430?
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Because the AV-20S, GT-50, most Davtron model clocks, etc. are considered "simple replacement clocks."

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/pdf/gt50approval.pdf

This terminology is important. A simple replacement clock with extra functionality of the clock (AOA, OAT, etc.) cannot replace previously installed aircraft equipment and are considered "minor changes in this device, since it is incidental to the clock installation and does not interface with other aircraft systems."

The GNS430 is an installed appliance which obviously does interface with other aircraft systems. It can't be considered a simple replacement clock nor does it have the ability to display time permanently.

I'm okay with requiring a clock to be installed. But I think any that are accessible through some other device should be perfectly fine, especially when considering the very small number of times they're actually used, at least in my experience.
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That's subjective. Maybe so, maybe not. I'm not sure I'm ready to say that the clock buried on Nav page six is a very useful presentation. If the GPS is being used for a non-precision approach and time is also required to determine the MAP, the clock function would not be meaningfully useful in my opinion, but that's neither here nor there. It's not a satisfactory IFR clock in its own right but that doesn't stop one from using it, if they want to, so long as a legal IFR clock is installed.
 
schmookeeg said:
Reading the earlier linked thread, am I to understand that the digital timer up/down function of the Garmin Transponders (327, 330, 345, etc) would meet this requirement because they are a HH:MM:SS digital presentation?
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No. It would not.
 
Ryan F. said:
No. It would not.
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And this is because it is not a permanent digital presentation, but a "mode" even though it is not affecting the primary display and function of the transponder? (when in timer mode, it no longer displays the default info which is my N number -- the squawk code is not part of the mode display)
 
schmookeeg said:
And this is because it is not a permanent digital presentation, but a "mode" even though it is not affecting the primary display and function of the transponder? (when in timer mode, it no longer displays the default info which is my N number -- the squawk code is not part of the mode display)
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Yes.
 
I'm not a high time pilot...only about 321 hours. instrument rated PP....
I've never owned, only rented....
but & I'm pretty sure I have NEVER looked at an installed clock in flight. I want to say that high number of them through the years were tagged inop.... I recall joking around with instructors about them keeping bad time.... etc... but other than that I'm pretty sure never.
I always used my watch, a kneeboard mounted timer for approaches, etc....
just sayin....
 
I am a bit surprised the OP's 182 does not have a clock.

Idea: mount a clock on the yoke. Good Luck :)
 
I had a AV20s installed a couple months ago and I love it! The clock / timer functions are nice and easy to use. The AOA function works great too. It gives you a lot of information for the price.
 
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