Climb via SID: when are you required to climb?

[Andrew]

You are approaching RAYVE (lower left) at an assigned altitude of 9,000 feet and will arrive in about 2 minutes.

ATC advises "climb via SID".

When are you required to begin the climb?

 

[jimhorner]

I would have expected an instruction like "Climb via SID except maintain 9,000" if your assigned altitude is 9,000. You need to be at 7,000 or higher when at RAYVE, so you'd better be climbing to be at least 7,000 before you get to RAYVE.

According to the SID, you're supposed to climb to 13,000 by the time you reach SLAPP. The note says this departure is for turbojet only, so I'm wondering why you'd want to hang out at 9,000 instead of continuing the climb? Seems kinda strange to use this SID to get up to 9,000.

Curious as to what your full clearance was?

 

[tsts4]

Well you'd climb as necessary to be at or above 13000 before passing SLAPP. But how did to get to 9000 before RAYVE in the first place?

 

[jimhorner]

Well you'd climb to 13000 after passing RAYVE. But how did to get to 9000 before RAYVE in the first place?

I misread the original post a bit. Thought the OP said approaching RAYVE for an assigned altitude of 9,000, not at 9,000. So, yeah, I agree with your question. How did they get to 9,000 prior to approaching RAYVE? The SID does say at or above 7,000 at RAYVE, so it's okay to be at 9,000 before RAYVE. Just need to make sure you're at 13,000 by SLAPP and 15,000 by YAPPY.

I doubt if I'll ever be flying a plane that can climb that quickly (doubt I'll ever be flying a turbojet; I'm not wealthy), so this is just a bit academic for me

 

[Andrew]

Thanks guys - FYI this is on a simulator w/ human controllers -

@tsts4 - was assigned an altitude of 9000 during departure with a cruise altitude of FL21 on file.

@jimhorner, wasn't really hanging out as much as checking SID altitudes & FMS. I planned on initiating the climb in about 30 seconds.

Doubt I'll be flying one in real life either, but using them in training for learning/understanding this stuff is great.

(Passed my written & completed my flight time just as the pandemic started, then my training aircraft went into the shop a few times & was down for months. Just getting re-started. So, I have to take the written again & min 3 hours flight time.)

 

[jimhorner]

Thanks guys - FYI this is on a simulator w/ human controllers -

@tsts4 - was assigned an altitude of 9000 during departure with a cruise altitude of FL21 on file.

@jimhorner, wasn't really hanging out as much as checking SID altitudes & FMS. I planned on initiating the climb in about 30 seconds.

Doubt I'll be flying one in real life either, but using them in training for learning/understanding this stuff is great.

(Passed my written & completed my flight time just as the pandemic started, then my training aircraft went into the shop a few times & was down for months. Just getting re-started. So, I have to take the written again & min 3 hours flight time.)

Ah, I see. Simulator.

So, you can do a calculation based on ground speed, distance, and altitude change. At 9,000 ft, unless ATC has authorized it, your max speed is 250kts. I'll assume that. So, you're 2 min from RAYVE at 250kts, 9,000 ft, and you need to be 13,000 by SLAPP.

2min from RAYVE @ 250kts -> 8.33 nm from RAYVE. (250nm/hr)(1hr/60min)(2min)

You have that plus the 5nm from RAYVE to SLAPP to get to 13,000ft.

So, you need a climb rate of (13,000ft-9,000ft)/(5nm+8.33nm) or ~300ft/nm

At 250kts, you'll need to climb at a little better than (300ft/nm)(250nm/hr)(1hr/60min) = ~1,250 ft/min. Waiting 30 seconds means you'll have to climb faster. No good reason to do that.

Not sure what kind of plane you're simming, but you probably want to start your climb now. If you wait till RAYVE, you'll have to climb at 800ft/nm to get to 13,000 from 9,000. At 250kts, you'll have to climb at 3,333ft/min to do that. Might be a pretty steep deck angle. Flying an F-22? No problem. Flying paying passengers? Might wanna rethink.

But what do I know about jets? Maybe 3000+ ft/min is typical? I can do 1000+ ft/min till about 5,000ft or so, but I prefer cruise climb of ~500 near sea level and ~200-300 higher up. Why waste ground speed on a steep climb?

 

[Andrew]

Ah, I see. Simulator.

So, you can do a calculation based on ground speed, distance, and altitude change. At 9,000 ft, unless ATC has authorized it, you're max speed is 250kts. I'll assume that. So, you're 2 min from RAYVE at 250kts, 9,000 ft, and you need to be 13,000 by SLAPP.

2min from RAYVE @ 250kts -> 8.33 nm from RAYVE. (250/60*2)

You have that plus the 5nm from RAYVE to SLAPP to get to 13,000ft.

So, you need a climb rate of 4,000ft/13.33nm or ~300ft/nm

At 250kts, you'll need to climb at a little better than (300ft/nm)(250nm/hr)(1hr/60min) = ~1,250 ft/min. Waiting 30 seconds means you'll have to climb faster. No good reason to do that.

Not sure what kind of plane you're simming, but you probably want to start your climb now. If you wait till RAYVE, you'll have to climb at 800ft/nm to get to 13,000 from 9,000. At 250kts, you'll have to climb at 3,333ft/min to do that. Might be a pretty steep deck angle. Flying an F-22? No problem. Flying paying passengers? Might wanna rethink.

Thanks Jim - it's a CJ4. Was doing about 200kts. I was roughly 1 minute from RAYVE, then 4000 to make SLAPP @ 13k. The CJ4 climbs pretty well that low, and obviously the lateral speed is decreased quite a bit in a fast climb.

 

[jimhorner]

Thanks Jim - it's a CJ4. Was doing about 200kts. I was roughly 1 minute from RAYVE, then 4000 to make SLAPP @ 13k. The CJ4 climbs pretty well that low, and obviously the lateral speed is decreased quite a bit in a fast climb.

200kts helps to not make the ft/min climb quite as steep. But your original post said 2min to RAYVE. 1min means you have less distance. Just do the math and you'll be able to calculate the required climb rate. Wind matters also, since it's ground speed and not airspeed you need to use for the calc. Certainly not Indicated airspeed.

And I know what you meant when you said lateral speed, but you might want to start talking and writing like the pilot you (hopefully) will soon be and say "ground speed"

 

[Andrew]

200kts helps to not make the ft/min climb quite as steep.

And I know what you meant when you said lateral speed, but you might want to start talking and writing like the pilot you (hopefully) will soon be and say "ground speed"

Gotcha. Normally I think I would have. lol... Yeah, "ground speed" didn't feel as three-dimensional when I was visualizing it, I guess.

Anyway - back to the original question - all other things being equal, when is the pilot required to begin the climb? (emphasis mine)

FAR:
"Clearance to “climb via” authorizes the pilot to:
(A) When used in the IFR departure clearance, in a PDC, DCL or when cleared to a waypoint depicted on a SID, to join the procedure after departure or to resume the procedure.
(B) When vertical navigation is interrupted and an altitude is assigned to maintain which is not contained on the published procedure, to climb from that previously-assigned altitude at pilot's discretion to the altitude depicted for the next waypoint.
(C) Once established on the depicted departure, to navigate laterally and climb to meet all published or assigned altitude and speed."

My interpretation was pilot's discretion, as in B above.

 

[tsts4]

Kinda answered your own question. You are "required" to meet the altitude constraints of the SID. You begin your climb "when" you need to in order to comply with the constraints. Based upon your variables at the time, sometimes that's sooner rather than later.

 

[jimhorner]

Gotcha. Normally I think I would have. lol... Yeah, "ground speed" didn't feel as three-dimensional when I was visualizing it, I guess.

Anyway - back to the original question - all other things being equal, when is the pilot required to begin the climb? (emphasis mine)

FAR:
"Clearance to “climb via” authorizes the pilot to:
(A) When used in the IFR departure clearance, in a PDC, DCL or when cleared to a waypoint depicted on a SID, to join the procedure after departure or to resume the procedure.
(B) When vertical navigation is interrupted and an altitude is assigned to maintain which is not contained on the published procedure, to climb from that previously-assigned altitude at pilot's discretion to the altitude depicted for the next waypoint.
(C) Once established on the depicted departure, to navigate laterally and climb to meet all published or assigned altitude and speed."

My interpretation was pilot's discretion, as in B above.

There's no requirement when to climb, just requirements to meet as far as being at the correct altitudes at each waypoint.

So, it's more like C. You are established on the departure, because, according the the departure procedure, you are receiving radar vectors to RAYVE. It's up to you to make sure you meet the altitude specs of the procedure. You can do it with a steady climb to make sure you are at or above 7000 by RAYVE, 13000 by STAPP, and 15000 by YAPPY, or you can do a staircase climb with sudden zooms just before reaching each waypoint, Completely up to you. Me? I like steady climbs.

As a practical matter, BTW, you won't have to worry about SIDs until you start instrument training, and it will be a long time (likely) before you have to worry about Turbojet SIDs. I don't believe I ever flew a SID in my instrument training since they're really only common at class C and B airports. And most are for turbojets. Obstacle departure procedures, on the other hand, are fairly common at a lot of airports and do get assigned sometimes, but only as part of an IFR clearance. You've got a while before you will get to that.

Now, the exception that proves the rule is that I frequently ask for the SUNOL SID out of San Jose (KSJC). It's restricted to prop aircraft only and is a good way to get out of the area efficiently. But, I never flew a SID in my instrument training, and you'll never deal with them as a VFR pilot.

 

[dmspilot]

You are approaching RAYVE (lower left) at an assigned altitude of 9,000 feet and will arrive in about 2 minutes.

ATC advises "climb via SID".

When are you required to begin the climb?

Why would you wait at all to climb? You can and should begin climbing immediately unless you enjoy wasting time and fuel at a lower altitude.

 

[Andrew]

There's no requirement when to climb, just requirements to meet as far as being at the correct altitudes at each waypoint.

So, it's more like C. You are established on the departure, because, according the the departure procedure, you are receiving radar vectors to RAYVE. It's up to you to make sure you meet the altitude specs of the procedure. You can do it with a steady climb to make sure you are at or above 7000 by RAYVE, 13000 by STAPP, and 15000 by YAPPY, or you can do a staircase climb with sudden zooms just before reaching each waypoint, Completely up to you. Me? I like steady climbs.

As a practical matter, BTW, you won't have to worry about SIDs until you start instrument training, and it will be a long time (likely) before you have to worry about Turbojet SIDs. I don't believe I ever flew a SID in my instrument training since they're really only common at class C and B airports. And most are for turbojets. Obstacle departure procedures, on the other hand, are fairly common at a lot of airports and do get assigned sometimes, but only as part of an IFR clearance. You've got a while before you will get to that.

Now, the exception that proves the rule is that I frequently ask for the SUNOL SID out of San Jose (KSJC). It's restricted to prop aircraft only and is a good way to get out of the area efficiently. But, I never flew a SID in my instrument training, and you'll never deal with them as a VFR pilot.

Thanks again Jim - as noted above - I was done with my instrument rating, and about ready for the checkride, but it was a few years ago & I'm catching up now. Since it's on the test, I like flying it. (I mean, plus... it's fun.)

I think I was leaning toward (B) since it notes vertical nav being interrupted with an assigned altitude AND pilot's discretion.

Also - @tsts4 - thanks Todd - yeah, I thought I'd answered my own question too, but need to go back and listen to the recording, because I was "reprimanded" for not climbing. Seemed pretty clear, but maybe I missed something.

 

[dmspilot]

Your assigned altitude is irrelevant. "Climb via sid" is your new altitude assignment, unless the clearance is "climb via sid except maintain...".

 

[Andrew]

Why would you wait at all to climb? You can and should begin climbing immediately unless you enjoy wasting time and fuel at a lower altitude.

Thanks - As above - my question is regarding what's required, rather than what would be best to do, or make the most sense, or anticipated by ATC, etc.

Agreed though - next time I'll start the climb, then look ahead at my flight plan.

 

[jimhorner]

Gotcha. Normally I think I would have. lol... Yeah, "ground speed" didn't feel as three-dimensional when I was visualizing it, I guess.

Anyway - back to the original question - all other things being equal, when is the pilot required to begin the climb? (emphasis mine)

FAR:
"Clearance to “climb via” authorizes the pilot to:
(A) When used in the IFR departure clearance, in a PDC, DCL or when cleared to a waypoint depicted on a SID, to join the procedure after departure or to resume the procedure.
(B) When vertical navigation is interrupted and an altitude is assigned to maintain which is not contained on the published procedure, to climb from that previously-assigned altitude at pilot's discretion to the altitude depicted for the next waypoint.
(C) Once established on the depicted departure, to navigate laterally and climb to meet all published or assigned altitude and speed."

My interpretation was pilot's discretion, as in B above.

A few other things about A,B, and C.

A - PDC, DCl: These are data link things. You may or may not be equipped with this expensive gear. But, all it really says is fly the procedure and climb as required to meet the procedure specs.

B - Key thing here is that ATC has, for whatever reason (tradfic most likely) interrupted your climb. When their restriction is no longer applicable, climb at pilot's discretion to meet the constraints of the next waypoint on the procedure.

C - You're on the procedure. Make sure you meet the altitude constraints for each waypoint.

In all cases, it's up to you to decide when to climb, unless ATC is restricting you to a specific altitude for some reason, usually traffic.

 

[jimhorner]

Thanks again Jim - as noted above - I was done with my instrument rating, and about ready for the checkride, but it was a few years ago & I'm catching up now. Since it's on the test, I like flying it. (I mean, plus... it's fun.)

I think I was leaning toward (B) since it notes vertical nav being interrupted with an assigned altitude AND pilot's discretion.

Also - @tsts4 - thanks Todd - yeah, I thought I'd answered my own question too, but need to go back and listen to the recording, because I was "reprimanded" for not climbing. Seemed pretty clear, but maybe I missed something.

Oh, I thought it was your private cert you were close to getting. Didn't realize it was your instrument rating. My bad for assuming...

Was your altitude restricted? Why? Did they release the restriction?

 

[jimhorner]

Thanks - As above - my question is regarding what's required, rather than what would be best to do, or make the most sense, or anticipated by ATC, etc.

Agreed though - next time I'll start the climb, then look ahead at my flight plan.

The point is that there's no requirement as to when to start the climb. You are PIC, and it's your responsibility to make that determination. The only requirement is that you meet the altitude specs for the waypoints on the procedure.

I'd suggest discussing this some more with your CFII. He/she should be able to explain it better.

I don't know, but I suspect, that many instrument rated piston pilots never get a SID. And the likelihood of getting an arrival procedure is even less. I've gotten only one arrival in 11 years of flying instruments.

 

[AggieMike88]

For comparison, here is the Jepp Plate for that Departure

 

[dmspilot]

Thanks - As above - my question is regarding what's required, rather than what would be best to do, or make the most sense, or anticipated by ATC, etc.

Agreed though - next time I'll start the climb, then look ahead at my flight plan.

That's like asking when are you required to take off when cleared for takeoff. There's no time limit or requirement to be off the runway within X amount of time. But you are expected to takeoff expeditiously. No one flying a jet is going to linger below 10,000 when they are cleared to climb higher.

 

[Clip4]

What is maximum altitudes apply to this SID?

 

[jimhorner]

What is maximum altitudes apply to this SID?

Top altitude for the SID is 23K

 

[jimhorner]

For comparison, here is the Jepp Plate for that Departure

That's interesting. Not familar with Jepp charts (I'd rather spend my money on AvGas), But it's interesting to see that Jepp SIDs are to scale and show the terrain. I guess it's a good reminder why the altitudes are as specified. If ya don't meet those altitudes, here's the mountain yer gonna fly into!

 

[luvflyin]

What is maximum altitudes apply to this SID?

Are you talking about JETHK? Or the Top Altitude?

 

[Larry in TN]

Thanks - As above - my question is regarding what's required, rather than what would be best to do, or make the most sense, or anticipated by ATC, etc.

You are required to meet the altitude restrictions on the SID.

The SID is restricted to turbojets. In a jet you will want to climb as soon as you're able to climb. On a "Descend via...", a jet will want to stay as high as possible for as long as possible so will usually delay the start of the descent. Not so on the climb.

Another problem is with your clearance to "Climb via SID" that you should have clarified. If you filed for FL210 (FL21 is 2,100') then you would have expected a clearance to "Climb vis SID except maintain FL210". As stated, you would have been required to climb to FL230. If you wanted to stop at FL210 you would have had to request it (since the controller may have missed it on your (e)strip).

 

[Andrew]

If you filed for FL210 (FL21 is 2,100') then you would have expected a clearance to "Climb vis SID except maintain FL210". As stated, you would have been required to climb to FL230. If you wanted to stop at FL210 you would have had to request it (since the controller may have missed it on your (e)strip).

Thanks Larry - I went back to the recording. The directions were:

"right turn to 340, when able direct RAYVE, resume departure, climb via SID." When busted, I asked about it, and the description from the controller had "maintain FL210" added into it. It clearly wasn't there the first time, but I don't think that's relevant to beginning the climb.

What is "expected," well... either way, it appears that while it may be desirable, or expected, an immediate commencement into the climb isn't required.

 

[jimhorner]

Thanks Larry - I went back to the recording. The directions were:

"right turn to 340, when able direct RAYVE, resume departure, climb via SID." When busted, I asked about it, and the description from the controller had "maintain FL210" added into it. It clearly wasn't there the first time, but I don't think that's relevant to beginning the climb.

What is "expected," well... either way, it appears that while it may be desirable, or expected, an immediate commencement into the climb isn't required.

One other thing to keep in mind here. You are flying a home simulator with other hobbiests acting as controllers, correct? If so, I wouldn't trust that those amateur controllers know what they are doing. At all. I've never heard "resume departure" from a real controller.

Don't make the mistake of believing these folks are like real ATC. Home simulators can (perhaps) be useful in practicing approaches, departures, etc., but I question their usefulness wrt ATC communications. I think the best practice is to hop in a plane and go fly. I file IFR for every long trip regardless of the weather so I can keep in practice with being in the system.


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[Andrew]

One other thing to keep in mind here. You are flying a home simulator with other hobbiests acting as controllers, correct? If so, I wouldn't trust that those amateur controllers know what they are doing. At all. I've never heard "resume departure" from a real controller.

Don't make the mistake of believing these folks are like real ATC. Home simulators can (perhaps) be useful in practicing approaches, departures, etc., but I question their usefulness wrt ATC communications. I think the best practice is to hop in a plane and go fly. I file IFR for every long trip regardless of the weather so I can keep in practice with being in the system.


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Hi Jim - Noted. FWIW the service is a paid service, and I believe the controllers are actual controllers. (Everyone makes mistakes sometimes...) I also don't mistake my simulator for conveying the "feel" of the planes, which some people LOVE to complain about. If it's close, I'm fine with it.

In actual VFR, unless I'm just running laps or going to an airport that's two minutes away (shared frequency anyway), I'm always on with ATC with flight following. Just makes sense and the extra safety is good. Once IR, my intent is to file as much as I can where it makes sense, including great weather.

Side note: I think it's a bit off-putting to hear some pilots brag about never getting on the radio with ATC if VFR. Or complain about certain ATC facilities being "difficult" or whatever. It's not impressive.

 

[dmspilot]

I've never heard "resume departure" from a real controller.

I have.

 

[tsts4]

Andrew, if you don't already, I suggest listening to the Opposing Bases podcast that's hosted by two controllers that are also pilots. I've learned a ton from these guys and get something out of every episode.

 

[dmspilot]

Thanks Larry - I went back to the recording. The directions were:

"right turn to 340, when able direct RAYVE, resume departure, climb via SID." When busted, I asked about it, and the description from the controller had "maintain FL210" added into it. It clearly wasn't there the first time, but I don't think that's relevant to beginning the climb.

What is "expected," well... either way, it appears that while it may be desirable, or expected, an immediate commencement into the climb isn't required.

So what did the controller say when you didn't climb?

Controllers expect pilots to be predictable. While you are correct that you did not violate a regulation, not climbing is an unexpected reaction. It's typical for controllers to be upset at pilots who act in an unexpected but legal fashion. Both the pilot and the controller should get over it and communicate what needs to be done.

 

[Andrew]

Andrew, if you don't already, I suggest listening to the Opposing Bases podcast that's hosted by two controllers that are also pilots. I've learned a ton from these guys and get something out of every episode.

Thanks! Will do.

 

[AggieMike88]

That's interesting. Not familar with Jepp charts (I'd rather spend my money on AvGas), But it's interesting to see that Jepp SIDs are to scale and show the terrain. I guess it's a good reminder why the altitudes are as specified. If ya don't meet those altitudes, here's the mountain yer gonna fly into!

Jepp also brings much of the textual info onto the graphic depiction. Look in the upper left on what to do based on what runway, followed by the top altitude and routing.

A big benefit for using Jepp is if you operate in other countries in addition to USA. All the information depicted on the various plates is standardized no matter what country.

 

[Andrew]

So what did the controller say when you didn't climb?

Controllers expect pilots to be predictable. While you are correct that you did not violate a regulation, not climbing is an unexpected reaction. It's typical for controllers to be upset at pilots who act in an unexpected but legal fashion. Both the pilot and the controller should get over it and communicate what needs to be done.

He noted that I "should be climbing for the SID" and that I was unable to continue for this particular test (i.e. failed), though I wasn't actually taking the test, which he quickly realized.

 

[Larry in TN]

He noted that I "should be climbing for the SID" and that I was unable to continue for this particular test (i.e. failed), though I wasn't actually taking the test, which he quickly realized.

Ask him to back that up with the applicable regulation reference.

 

[Andrew]

Ask him to back that up with the applicable regulation reference.

I have. Awaiting a response.

Not a huge deal at the moment, since I passed this sim "test" a few years ago, albeit in a much slower, lower plane.

 

[Larry in TN]

I have. Awaiting a response.

I'll add that if the controller needed you to start climbing promptly, he should have included, or added later when he noticed that you hadn't started climing, for you to start your climb now.

 

[jimhorner]

Jepp also brings much of the textual info onto the graphic depiction. Look in the upper left on what to do based on what runway, followed by the top altitude and routing.

A big benefit for using Jepp is if you operate in other countries in addition to USA. All the information depicted on the various plates is standardized no matter what country.

Yeah, I get the advantages, but they're expensive and I'm unlikely to fly anywhere but the USA. I have gone to Canada a few times; their approach plates are similar enough to the FAA plates that I haven't screwed up (yet?). The FAA charts work for me. I'd probably have imposter syndrome if I had the Jepp plates like the pros use!

What was really annoying was when I was studying for the instrument written 11 years ago. The test had a mix of the really old format and the new format. That was confusing.


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[Andrew]

Resolved. I was OK in maintaining my current altitude.

 

[Andrew]

Yeah, I get the advantages, but they're expensive and I'm unlikely to fly anywhere but the USA. I have gone to Canada a few times; their approach plates are similar enough to the FAA plates that I haven't screwed up (yet?). The FAA charts work for me. I'd probably have imposter syndrome if I had the Jepp plates like the pros use!

What was really annoying was when I was studying for the instrument written 11 years ago. The test had a mix of the really old format and the new format. That was confusing.


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The tests also like to mix in things with the content being pretty hard to read. See below, question refers to 27R. Because of course it does. It's got to be intentional.

I really like the Jeppesen charts, especially the correct scale (mostly), but can't justify the cost. One could subscribe to Navigraph to browse them at a lower cost, and use with sims, but it's not legal for flying.