Climb power - MCP or 25" squared

k9medic

k9medic

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ATP-H, CMEL, CSEL, CFI/CFII Airplanes and Helicopters
My buddy and I had a discussion the other day. I climb out at MCP and 2500 on the prop until I level off. I then pull the prop back to 2300 and adjust the mixture (going through 5000') which normally gives me 65% cruise.

My buddy pulls the throttle and prop back to 25 squared just as soon as we clear 700'.

Backgrounds for us - Both of us are ATP's with thousands of hours but little time over the years flying small piston stuff. Buddy is retired corporate pilot having flown P-51's, F4U's, B25's in the airshow world in the 70's and 80's (yes, he's a tad bit older...) I didn't get to fly the warbirds but fly for a living.

What works best? Is this the "oversquared" argument?
 
What engine/plane? NA or turbo?
 
Probably depends on the engine but with 4 cyl. lycomings like my J model Mooney has I think it is common practice to climb at MCP and RPM. The engine is rated to run like that all day long. As long as the engine is cool I don't think you are going to hurt anything and you need the power to climb. Most people I know think you are not doing a Lyc. any favors by babying it.
 
k9medic said:
My buddy and I had a discussion the other day. I climb out at MCP and 2500 on the prop until I level off. I then pull the prop back to 2300 and adjust the mixture (going through 5000') which normally gives me 65% cruise.

My buddy pulls the throttle and prop back to 25 squared just as soon as we clear 700'.

Backgrounds for us - Both of us are ATP's with thousands of hours but little time over the years flying small piston stuff. Buddy is retired corporate pilot having flown P-51's, F4U's, B25's in the airshow world in the 70's and 80's (yes, he's a tad bit older...) I didn't get to fly the warbirds but fly for a living.

What works best? Is this the "oversquared" argument?
Click to expand...

By MCP do you mean full throttle?
 
The main reason for reducing power after takeoff is to reduce noise and a tiny bit of engine wear in exchange for a minor decrease in climb performance. Beyond that, it's personal preference.
 
mooneyflyfast said:
Probably depends on the engine but with 4 cyl. lycomings like my J model Mooney has I think it is common practice to climb at MCP and RPM. The engine is rated to run like that all day long. As long as the engine is cool I don't think you are going to hurt anything and you need the power to climb. Most people I know think you are not doing a Lyc. any favors by babying it.
Click to expand...

Yup, I climb the J full throttle full prop at 500fpm, which is usually at ~120kts. Engine stays cool, and you maintain reasonable speed while climbing.
 
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Oh, there it is.
 
k9medic said:
My buddy and I had a discussion the other day. I climb out at MCP and 2500 on the prop until I level off. I then pull the prop back to 2300 and adjust the mixture (going through 5000') which normally gives me 65% cruise.

My buddy pulls the throttle and prop back to 25 squared just as soon as we clear 700'.

Backgrounds for us - Both of us are ATP's with thousands of hours but little time over the years flying small piston stuff. Buddy is retired corporate pilot having flown P-51's, F4U's, B25's in the airshow world in the 70's and 80's (yes, he's a tad bit older...) I didn't get to fly the warbirds but fly for a living.

What works best? Is this the "oversquared" argument?
Click to expand...

I use Vy, max power and RPM through 1000 ft to minimize the the dangerous part of an engine loss on takeoff. After that it a trade off of getting to altitude or a setting for engine longevity. Full climb power to 1000 AGL, 25/2500 to altitude, the 2300 RPM is what I would use.
 
A really really good question, actually. For background, I fly a Mooney M20C Ranger. I started following the POH and cutting back power and prop to 25 square as soon as practicable after liftoff. I saw some very anecdotal evidence that the ship burns less oil that way as well. I got convinced by some other Mooney pilots that this was balderdash and I was imagining things, and started using full power (I assume that's what MCP means) and 2500 on the prop. I swear I'm burning more oil, thankfully I document oil use now. I'm going to go back to 25 squared and see.
 
I’m gettin confused here. Power is a function of Manifold Pressure and RPM’s. 2500 RPM may or may not give you Max Power. I think the OP meant full throttle and 2500 RPM.
 
steingar said:
A really really good question, actually. For background, I fly a Mooney M20C Ranger. I started following the POH and cutting back power and prop to 25 square as soon as practicable after liftoff. I saw some very anecdotal evidence that the ship burns less oil that way as well. I got convinced by some other Mooney pilots that this was balderdash and I was imagining things, and started using full power (I assume that's what MCP means) and 2500 on the prop. I swear I'm burning more oil, thankfully I document oil use now. I'm going to go back to 25 squared and see.
Click to expand...

POH > Mooney Pilots
 
James331 said:
POH > Mooney Pilots
Click to expand...

From the POH:

CLIMB (Best Rate) 1. Power - FULL THROTTLE & 2'700 RPM, 2. Mixture - LEAN FOR SMOOTH OPERATION. 3. Cowl Flaps - FULL OPEN. 4. Airspeed - I01 MPM (88 KT'S) IAS at Sea Level decreasing to 94 MPH (82 KTS) IAS at 10,000 Ft. 5. Ram Air -ON AFTER ENTERING CLEAR AIR
 
Bill Jennings said:
From the POH:

CLIMB (Best Rate) 1. Power - FULL THROTTLE & 2'700 RPM, 2. Mixture - LEAN FOR SMOOTH OPERATION. 3. Cowl Flaps - FUEL OPEN. 4. Airspeed - I01 MPM (88 KT'S) IAS at Sea Level decreasing to 94 MPH (82 KTS) IAS at 10,000 Ft. 5. Ram Air -ON AFTER ENTERING CLEAR AIR
Click to expand...

And that’s the answer to that.
 
MCP for me.
Turbo charged aircraft.

All the POH charts have ROC and time to
Climb based off MCP.
 
k9medic said:
.....Is this the "oversquared" argument?
Click to expand...

Probably. If you are holding full MP, manifold pressure, and keeping the RPM at 2500, you are probably oversquare for awhile depending on what the density altitude is
 
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I’d do 25 squared for the ever so slight noise reduction. Got to keep those NIMBYs somewhat happy.
 
EdFred said:
Isn't that usually going to be everything forward?
Click to expand...
Depends on the airplane. I have flown airplanes that have had time limits, either one or five minutes, on maximum continuous power after which a thrust reduction to climb power was required.

Frankly, I don’t recall what airplanes required the thrust reduction. It might have been the 402
 
Mooney with o-360 here. I climb out WOT prop full forward until 1000 AGL, then I pull the rpms back to 2500 still WOT adjusting rate of climb to keep CHT under 400. I kinda use CHT as primary for pitch during the climb.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Depends on the airplane. I have flown airplanes that have had time limits, either one or five minutes, on maximum continuous power after which a thrust reduction to climb power was required.

Frankly, I don’t recall what airplanes required the thrust reduction. It might have been the 402
Click to expand...

Turbo lance requires power reduction.
Max takeoff power 36” 2700 for maximum of 5 minutes.
MCP 33” 2575
 
But if you are reducing power, it's no longer maximum then is it? :D


Yes, I know, max continuous means maximum power that won't result in engine grenades.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Maximum Continuous Power. Not necessarily full throttle.
Click to expand...

I guess ‘continuous’ has something to do with it. What I’m having trouble getting my head wrapped around is getting more, as in maximum, power by reducing RPM. I’m assuming he needs to pull the prop back a little to get it down to 2500
 
luvflyin said:
I guess ‘continuous’ has something to do with it. What I’m having trouble getting my head wrapped around is getting more, as in maximum, power by reducing RPM. I’m assuming he needs to pull the prop back a little to get it down to 2500
Click to expand...
Maximum can apply to a lot of things. Maximum Takeoff Power. Maximum Climb Power. Maximum gear extended speed, Maximum gear extension speed, etcetera.

You have to factor in the qualifier to understand which maximum to apply.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Maximum can apply to a lot of things. Maximum Takeoff Power. Maximum Climb Power. Maximum gear extended speed, Maximum gear extension speed, etcetera.

You have to factor in the qualifier to understand which maximum to apply.
Click to expand...

Now I’m getting it. Thanks. It’s like if they threw the word ‘allowable’ in there it would have clicked
 
luvflyin said:
Now I’m getting it. Thanks.
Click to expand...

Like posted up above, you can run certain engines (turbocharged) at full throttle, and full RPM for a few minutes, any more than that is going to cause engine problems. You can't continuously run it maxed out. So after 3 minutes or 5 minutes, or whatever, the settings are then a reduction in RPM and/or Manifold pressure. This setting is safe to run until you're out of fuel, maximum continuous power - the highest setting you can run it non-stop without watching the engine come from together.
 
Good gosh....:rolleyes: Do some of you guys even fly???

Cliff notes:
  1. MCP is in fact Maximum continuous power. I mostly fly turbine aircraft which require a power reduction after takeoff so I guess in the case of a piston aircraft I should have said "full throttle."
  2. What is a manual? Gee, never thought to look there... A 1967 Cherokee 6 has very limited information in the POH. Nothing about power settings, only airspeed. The "Checkmate" checklist shows 24/24 for a climb but who knows where that data came from.
  3. How in the world did we get talking about Mooneys? This is a dang Cherokee 6/260.
 
EdFred said:
Like posted up above, you can run certain engines (turbocharged) at full throttle, and full RPM for a few minutes, any more than that is going to cause engine problems. You can't continuously run it maxed out. So after 3 minutes or 5 minutes, or whatever, the settings are then a reduction in RPM and/or Manifold pressure. This setting is safe to run until you're out of fuel, maximum continuous power - the highest setting you can run it non-stop without watching the engine come from together.
Click to expand...

Now I get it. Thanks
 
k9medic said:
Good gosh....:rolleyes: Do some of you guys even fly???

Cliff notes:
  1. MCP is in fact Maximum continuous power. I mostly fly turbine aircraft which require a power reduction after takeoff so I guess in the case of a piston aircraft I should have said "full throttle."
  2. What is a manual? Gee, never thought to look there... A 1967 Cherokee 6 has very limited information in the POH. Nothing about power settings, only airspeed. The "Checkmate" checklist shows 24/24 for a climb but who knows where that data came from.
  3. How in the world did we get talking about Mooneys? This is a dang Cherokee 6/260.
Click to expand...

I don't memorize every single acronym. Flying is my avocation, not vocation, I have more important things to remember, than some 3 letter acronym I may or may not have seen in the past 15+ years.

That said, similar engine to the Comanche I fly. If I'm climbing to that altitude, throttle forward and somewhere in the 500 AGL range I reduce RPM to 2400 or 2300 - depends on my mood.
 
my rule is....what are the CHTs and TIT doing?

Are they cool enough? If so and there is no operation limit....Keep your cool & motor on. If hot, make adjustments...like lowering the nose, opening cowl flaps, and or adding "fuel"as in more mixture if not full rich (could also need a mechanic to adjust max fuel flow settings to get more)....to get the CHTs in a cool enough point. Lycomings that's 400 deg F or less...TCMs need to be cooler 370 ish or less.

Back to the original discussion....what RPM? Doesn't matter IMHO.
 
Last edited:
k9medic said:
Good gosh....:rolleyes: Do some of you guys even fly???

Cliff notes:
  1. MCP is in fact Maximum continuous power. I mostly fly turbine aircraft which require a power reduction after takeoff so I guess in the case of a piston aircraft I should have said "full throttle."
  2. What is a manual? Gee, never thought to look there... A 1967 Cherokee 6 has very limited information in the POH. Nothing about power settings, only airspeed. The "Checkmate" checklist shows 24/24 for a climb but who knows where that data came from.
  3. How in the world did we get talking about Mooneys? This is a dang Cherokee 6/260.
Click to expand...

I think MCP was fine. Those of us, maybe just me, who didn’t get it at first learned something. Now I can answer your question. Don’t argue with guys who fly planes that have guns:D
 
I bring the rpms down to 2500 shortly after takeoff for the noise (usually around 700 AGL). I live in a residential airpark, and while we like the sound of airplanes, we try to do what we can for the neighbors around us.

I do think about TITs during the climb. Come to think about it, I think about TITs most of the time.
 
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