"Clearing" before turns in simulated IMC?

[RussR]

I had an instrument student take the IR checkride today. One of the things the examiner insisted he do before each turn was to ask if it was clear in that direction. (For example, you're about to turn outbound on a procedure turn, you'd ask the examiner "is it clear"?)

I have never heard of this, have never taught it, been taught it, or had any examiner mention it during my checkrides or my students' checkrides. However, I am fully prepared to accept that it is a normal thing that I just haven't heard of, and perhaps it is supposed to apply anytime you're in simulated IMC.

So I guess my question is, is this a thing? If so, is it new?

 

[mscard88]

Not to that extent, but as a CFII I was always looking around during instrument maneuvers (basic, proc turns, holds, approaches etc) and listening to traffic ATC was working. Being aware of what was going around you. So I guess we (instructors) have actually been doing clearing turns just never called it out, although I seem to recall having students raise the wing (hi wing) before doing steep turns, visually.

 

[Velocity173]

If you're IMC it's makes no sense but VMC for aircraft that have more than one pilot, they can clear your turns. CRM.

 

[RyanB]

Thats always been something the CFII or safety pilot does while the other pilot is under the hood. Not necessarily "clearing turns" but more of a visual lookout and keeping eyes peeled for good SA.

 

[Joshuajayg]

Never heard of it, never done it. The safety pilot (examiner in that case) should always be looking anyway. Extra load for a check ride that is unnecessary.

 

[mjburian]

My CFII would ask me to lift a wing now and then in training, as do my safety pilots. If we're in VMC, it's become a habit for me to ask if the turn is clear. In IMC, there's obviously no point.

 

[Shawn]

ONLY logic I can see to this is to let the safety pilot know your intentions and where to be looking and this being the DPE's way of standardizing that exchange...but no, never heard of that otherwise.

 

[mjburian]

ONLY logic I can see to this is to let the safety pilot know your intentions and where to be looking and this being the DPE's way of standardizing that exchange...but no, never heard of that otherwise.

I think I recall that you fly a 182, right? (This probably doesn't apply to low wingers.) Do you lift a wing when you're looking outside in VMC to clear a turn? (Serious question, I know some people don't.)

I do. And if I'm going to do that when I'm looking outside, why wouldn't I do it when someone else is looking outside for me? (Unless they've previously said "you're clear right" or something to that effect.)

 

[denverpilot]

I've flown with some folks that want a shallow clearing turn while I'm under the hood. Doesn't bother me and it's become slightly more habitual over time to just do it and tell them to look, but it's less than about a 1 in 5 ratio of people I've flown with. Not a horrible idea to do it more, though.

 

[Shawn]

I do. And if I'm going to do that when I'm looking outside, why wouldn't I do it when someone else is looking outside for me? (Unless they've previously said "you're clear right" or something to that effect.)

I was more referring to the commutation requirement of the DPE, not the actual procedure of clearing a turn which makes total sense. Usually a "turning outbound" comment by the pilot should direct the safety pilot where to look vs asking "am I clear" at every turn.

 

[mjburian]

I was more referring to the commutation requirement of the DPE, not the actual procedure of clearing a turn which makes total sense. Usually a "turning outbound" comment by the pilot should direct the safety pilot where to look vs asking "am I clear" at every turn.

Ah, got it. Sorry for my misunderstanding of our agreement on this.

 

[denverpilot]

I was more referring to the commutation requirement of the DPE, not the actual procedure of clearing a turn which makes total sense. Usually a "turning outbound" comment by the pilot should direct the safety pilot where to look vs asking "am I clear" at every turn.

I've heard it done simply by stating that it's a clearing turn and the direction. Or the pilot asking "Clear left?" And the response being "Clear left" similar to taxiing. "Am I clear?" is a bit ambiguous.

 

[mondtster]

The only students I've worked with who have asked about deliberately clearing their turns all came from one particular 141 school. Obviously that is a big deal at that school.

I obviously still look out the window and monitor the radio to get an idea where everyone is at, just not as deliberate as the guys from that particular school.

 

[MAKG1]

I've NEVER experienced that in the context of a practice approach, but then that's done around here with ATC help, including "clearance" while VFR. It's kinda nice. VFR approaches are almost like IFR except you don't get busted if you blow it.

 

[denverpilot]

I've NEVER experienced that in the context of a practice approach, but then that's done around here with ATC help, including "clearance" while VFR. It's kinda nice. VFR approaches are almost like IFR except you don't get busted if you blow it.

Around here the controller phraseology is, "VFR practice approach XXX approved, no separation services provided. Turn right heading XXX to intercept the localizer. Maintain VFR."

 

[MAKG1]

Around here the controller phraseology is, "VFR practice approach XXX approved, no separation services provided. Turn right heading XXX to intercept the localizer. Maintain VFR."

Travis Approach does that, and Concord approaches go through their airspace. But NorCal does a lot more, including vectors, missed approach instructions, NOTAMs, and separation. They will tell you to maintain VFR, but it's otherwise real hard to tell the difference.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I've NEVER experienced that in the context of a practice approach, but then that's done around here with ATC help, including "clearance" while VFR. It's kinda nice. VFR approaches are almost like IFR except you don't get busted if you blow it.

The "practice approach approved" language is in the ATC Handbook (para 4-8-8). But like so many things in practical aviation there are geographic variations.

As @denverpilot said, this language has been used in the Denver area for several years, where practice approaches are also generally conducted with ATC assistance. Offhand I'd say it started about 2 or 3 years before I left. Before that it was the "cleared" language you are used to. OTOH, when I asked Raleigh Approach the question during a seminar, they looked at me like I had 3 heads.

(BTW, it theory, you can get busted if you blow it since you have deviated from a clearance or instruction. You are even being provided separation services based on it.)

Besides, if you are saying you never clear the airspace before making a turn in visual conditions because ATC is providing separation services (and I doubt you are saying that), you are abdicating your see and avoid responsibilities.

 

[Velocity173]

It's simple. You'll get "cleared" if you are going to the primary airport or any airports where there is an LTA authorizing sep for VFR aircraft conducting an IAP. NORCAL has 44 airports under their LTA because it's a huge chunk of airspace. If you're based around a C or B, they probably have a handful listed in the LTA.

It's similar to IFR only you have to remain VMC at all times, there's only 500 ft vertical sep applies and you need approval to conduct the missed. And yes, you're on a clearance so you better stick to the approach.

If your field isn't covered by the LTA, then you'll get "maintain VFR, practice approach approved, no separation services provided."

 

[denverpilot]

The "practice approach approved" language is in the ATC Handbook (para 4-8-8). But like so many things in practical aviation there are geographic variations.

As @denverpilot said, this language has been used in the Denver area for several years, where practice approaches are also generally conducted with ATC assistance. Offhand I'd say it started about 2 or 3 years before I left. Before that it was the "cleared" language you are used to. OTOH, when I asked Raleigh Approach the question during a seminar, they looked at me like I had 3 heads.

(BTW, it theory, you can get busted if you blow it since you have deviated from a clearance or instruction. You are even being provided separation services based on it.)

Besides, if you are saying you never clear the airspace before making a turn in visual conditions because ATC is providing separation services (and I doubt you are saying that), you are abdicating your see and avoid responsibilities.

And of course nationwide now we have the "everyone is going to DIE if we do opposite direction approaches to airports that worked fine for decades" crap.

Can't even fly the approach if the wind is blowing the other way, now. So stupid.

 

[MAKG1]

And of course nationwide now we have the "everyone is going to DIE if we do opposite direction approaches to airports that worked fine for decades" crap.

Can't even fly the approach if the wind is blowing the other way, now. So stupid.

Depends on the approach. Almost all approaches into Watsonville oppose traffic because prevailing winds blow across the airport into terrain. I'd sure as heck prefer to deal with a tailwind over a mountain, though you gotta be real careful on that timed LOC approach.

 

[MAKG1]

Besides, if you are saying you never clear the airspace before making a turn in visual conditions because ATC is providing separation services (and I doubt you are saying that), you are abdicating your see and avoid responsibilities.

If I'm wearing a view limiting device, I can't visually clear airspace before a turn. That's what the safety pilot is for. And he has been briefed and instructed to watch for traffic at all times. Not just when I'm about to make a turn. I also request the safety pilot to take traffic calls (which seems a bit unusual at least around here), since I don't like telling ATC I'm looking when I'm not.

 

[PPC1052]

I also request the safety pilot to take traffic calls (which seems a bit unusual at least around here), since I don't like telling ATC I'm looking when I'm not.

Understood. But I kind of see my response, "looking" to also be an instruction to my safety pilot to look.

 

[denverpilot]

Depends on the approach. Almost all approaches into Watsonville oppose traffic because prevailing winds blow across the airport into terrain. I'd sure as heck prefer to deal with a tailwind over a mountain, though you gotta be real careful on that timed LOC approach.

They won't even clear anyone to fly say, the ILS 35R at KAPA anymore if the airport is running Runway 17L/R. Not even VFR. It's just not allowed.

Worked fine with "plan to terminate the approach to the east at Lincoln Avenue" for decades. Now they act like it's instant death to put two aircraft head on and ask practice approaches to terminate early or spin them off for another shot at it.

Everyone just flies over to FTG nowadays. Because you know, getting closer to DIA in a tiny cutout of airspace below the Bravo is the smart and sane way to handle practice approaches. LOL.

Shhh. Don't tell them that's a higher risk, or they'll make us fly to Kansas to do it. Haha.

 

[midlifeflyer]

If I'm wearing a view limiting device, I can't visually clear airspace before a turn. That's what the safety pilot is for. And he has been briefed and instructed to watch for traffic at all times. Not just when I'm about to make a turn. I also request the safety pilot to take traffic calls (which seems a bit unusual at least around here), since I don't like telling ATC I'm looking when I'm not.

I meant (a) the collective "you" as I thought you did when you wrote the comment and (b) of course, "you" clearing the airspace includes having an assigned crewmember do it. I'm also assuming you have received confirmation before the personal "you" actually make the turn.

I do the same as you - have my safety pilot take the traffic calls.

 

[Harold Rutila]

If I recall correctly, all of my DPEs and inspectors stated "You're clear on the left/right" before instructing me to begin a turn. During the briefing before the checkride, they asked that I reminded them to clear if I did not hear them say they did.

"Practice approach approved" phraseology is used by approach controls where there is no Letter to Airmen (LTA) specifying how ATC will separate aircraft conducting practice VFR approaches. In most places, ATC voluntarily accepts separation responsibility for your approach until the final approach fix. Unfortunately, that subjects those participating to opposite direction rules. Thankfully where I flew in Lafayette, IN, we had no such letter with Grissom Approach, and since no separation was ever provided to VFR practice approaches, we could do whatever we wanted.