Cleared for “RNAV 9” …but which one Z or Y?

DaveInPA

Pre-Flight
Joined
Sep 21, 2019
Messages
54
Display Name

Display name:
Dave
Had my first flight in hard IMC and full approach today since getting my IFR ticket. The runway 9 at KOQN has 2 plates a Z and a Y. They are the same except for the missed which I assume changes depending on traffic at Philly international. I didn’t realize this until after my flight and just planned to use the Y version since it’s newer.

So I’m still a little green and when approach asks which approach I say “9 yankee” and he corrects me with “you want the RNAV 9?”. I say yes, fly the approach and all good.

What if I had to go missed (it’s untowered) - which plate do I follow until I get Philly approach back on my radio? Should he have told me which of the 2 RNAVs or I should have asked?
 
Had my first flight in hard IMC and full approach today since getting my IFR ticket. The runway 9 at KOQN has 2 plates a Z and a Y. They are the same except for the missed which I assume changes depending on traffic at Philly international. I didn’t realize this until after my flight and just planned to use the Y version since it’s newer.

So I’m still a little green and when approach asks which approach I say “9 yankee” and he corrects me with “you want the RNAV 9?”. I say yes, fly the approach and all good.

What if I had to go missed (it’s untowered) - which plate do I follow until I get Philly approach back on my radio? Should he have told me which of the 2 RNAVs or I should have asked?
Yes he should have and when he didn't you should have verified.
 
Had my first flight in hard IMC and full approach today since getting my IFR ticket. The runway 9 at KOQN has 2 plates a Z and a Y. They are the same except for the missed which I assume changes depending on traffic at Philly international. I didn’t realize this until after my flight and just planned to use the Y version since it’s newer.

So I’m still a little green and when approach asks which approach I say “9 yankee” and he corrects me with “you want the RNAV 9?”. I say yes, fly the approach and all good.

What if I had to go missed (it’s untowered) - which plate do I follow until I get Philly approach back on my radio? Should he have told me which of the 2 RNAVs or I should have asked?
Was probably a good day for it. Good to see people getting out and exercising that ticket when they get it. That’s how you stay proficient. I would imagine today was relatively smooth, I’m just northwest of ya
 
So I’m still a little green and when approach asks which approach I say “9 yankee” and he corrects me with “you want the RNAV 9?”. I say yes, fly the approach and all good.
“RNAV Yankee runway 9” would be the terminology to use…just like it’s printed on the chart.
 
What if I had to go missed (it’s untowered) - which plate do I follow until I get Philly approach back on my radio?
If the controller isn't more specific, it's usually because he didn't need to be. If which missed approach mattered to him he'd have specified. In a RADAR environment (under the PHL CBA) he'd likely vector you as soon as you reported being on the missed approach.

Flying airliner's into San Diego (SAN) we have the choice of the LOC 27, RNAV Y 27, and RNAV Z 27. SoCal approach usually just says, "At LYNDI, Cleared approach Runway 27", or similar. (All three approaches link to the arrival at LYNDI) The differences matter to us in how we conduct the approach, the RNAV Z is RNP and an Authorization Required approach. Our minimums are different on each but it doesn't matter to the controller.
 
This gets questioned a lot. While I can’t say what the controller is supposed to do, I can say that as PIC I’m sure you briefed the available approaches, and we’re fully aware of the two. And barring required equipment that would prohibit you from flying one approach, I would think you’d request the specific approach you want, and if assigned one without the letter distinction, the absolute very first question you’d immediately ask is Y or Z. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not harping on the question, but being a low time IR guy myself, knowing there’s rnav 9y and rnav 9z but given rnav 9, it wouldn’t be but a nanosecond before I’d clarify y or z.
 
Flying airliner's into San Diego (SAN) we have the choice of the LOC 27, RNAV Y 27, and RNAV Z 27. SoCal approach usually just says, "At LYNDI, Cleared approach Runway 27", or similar. (All three approaches link to the arrival at LYNDI) The differences matter to us in how we conduct the approach, the RNAV Z is RNP and an Authorization Required approach. Our minimums are different on each but it doesn't matter to the controller.
All three of those SAN IAPs have the same missed approach. Not so, for the OP's airport.
 
Here's their rules about that.

1. To require an aircraft to execute a particular instrument approach procedure, specify in the approach clearance the name of the approach as published on the approach chart. Where more than one procedure is published on a single chart and a specific procedure is to be flown, amend the approach clearance to specify execution of the specific approach to be flown. If only one instrument approach of a particular type is published, the approach needs not be identified by the runway reference.

PHRASEOLOGY−
CLEARED (type) APPROACH.
CLEARED APPROACH.
(To authorize a pilot to execute his/her choice of instrument approach),
CLEARED (specific procedure to be flown) APPROACH.
(Where more than one procedure is published on a single chart and a specific procedure is to be flown),
 
All three of those SAN IAPs have the same missed approach. Not so, for the OP's airport.
True, but even when they are different, if the controller doesn't care which missed approach procedure the pilot flies he can issue the clearance with specifying which approach.
 
True, but even when they are different, if the controller doesn't care which missed approach procedure the pilot flies he can issue the clearance with specifying which approach.
You've lost me. At the OP's airport, the missed approach procedures are very different.
 
You've lost me. At the OP's airport, the missed approach procedures are very different.
If it mattered which missed was flown, the controller would specify the approach. If not, he protects them both. 7110.65 allows approach clearances that cover more than one approach.

With that airport, under the Philly CBA, the controller is likely planning to start vectoring as soon as the aircraft came back to him on the missed. If he had no conflicting traffic for either missed approach procedure then there wasn't any reason to specify which RNAV approach in the clearance.
 
If it mattered which missed was flown, the controller would specify the approach. If not, he protects them both. 7110.65 allows approach clearances that cover more than one approach.

With that airport, under the Philly CBA, the controller is likely planning to start vectoring as soon as the aircraft came back to him on the missed. If he had no conflicting traffic for either missed approach procedure then there wasn't any reason to specify which RNAV approach in the clearance.
The controller asked which IAP he wanted. Seems to me the controller was only going to protect that missed approach. This is quite different than your example at KSAN.
 
The controller asked which IAP he wanted. Seems to me the controller was only going to protect that missed approach. This is quite different than your example at KSAN.
That doesn't make any difference with regard to the approach clearance. If the controller chooses to use less specific phraseology for the approach clearance it is because he is giving authorization for any of the matching approaches. When he does, it is up to him to provide whatever protection is required for all of the approaches that his clearance authorizes.

It was a legal approach clearance. A more specific clearance an option that ATC could have used but it wasn't required.
 
That doesn't make any difference with regard to the approach clearance. If the controller chooses to use less specific phraseology for the approach clearance it is because he is giving authorization for any of the matching approaches. When he does, it is up to him to provide whatever protection is required for all of the approaches that his clearance authorizes.

It was a legal approach clearance. A more specific clearance an option that ATC could have used but it wasn't required.
Do you have references?
 
PCG- Cleared Approach
 
PCG- Cleared Approach
Ah ha! The PCG. I was looking for the references after posting the .65 one but couldn’t find it in the ‘paragraphs.’ Here it is for those interested.

CLEARED APPROACH− ATC authorization for an aircraft to execute any standard or special instrument approach procedure for that airport. Normally, an aircraft will be cleared for a specific instrument approach procedure.
(See CLEARED (Type of) APPROACH.)
(See INSTRUMENT APPROACH PROCEDURE.)

CLEARED (Type of) APPROACH− ATC authorization for an aircraft to execute a specific instrument approach procedure to an airport; e.g., “Cleared ILS
Runway Three Six Approach.”
(See APPROACH CLEARANCE.)
(See INSTRUMENT APPROACH
PROCEDURE.)
 
If unsure ask. Still unsure ask again and as many times as necessary till it’s 100%. It’s your ticket and your life. I have maybe run into a couple of instances where the controller got testy with me. Don’t, didn’t, and won’t give a flying frisbee over their panties getting twisted. The only occasion I clearly recall, guy got real short with me and I asked HIM for a number so we could discuss it when I safely landed. Changed his tune immediately. Called when I landed ready to speak to his supervisor if he didn’t at least acknowledge my position. He apologized, stated he was out of line and promised it would never happen again with anyone. I accepted his apology, and let it end there. Everyone has bad days, but it could be your last day if you don’t have it straight in your head.
 
Upon your miss, the Controller issues instruction. that would be "last chance to ask for clarification"...
 
Ah ha! The PCG. I was looking for the references after posting the .65 one but couldn’t find it in the ‘paragraphs.’ Here it is for those interested.

CLEARED APPROACH− ATC authorization for an aircraft to execute any standard or special instrument approach procedure for that airport. Normally, an aircraft will be cleared for a specific instrument approach procedure.
(See CLEARED (Type of) APPROACH.)
(See INSTRUMENT APPROACH PROCEDURE.)

CLEARED (Type of) APPROACH− ATC authorization for an aircraft to execute a specific instrument approach procedure to an airport; e.g., “Cleared ILS
Runway Three Six Approach.”
(See APPROACH CLEARANCE.)
(See INSTRUMENT APPROACH
PROCEDURE.)

But the real question is, is it required to specify X or Y in the clearance if more than one RNAV is specified for the runway? The .65 just gives an example of the phraseology for an X and Y clearance. Doesn’t state that shall be given.
 
But the real question is, is it required to specify X or Y in the clearance if more than one RNAV is specified for the runway?
"Cleared Approach" is allowed, which authorizes the pilot to fly any standard or special instrument approach for that airport. "Cleared RNAV Approach", or "Cleared approach Runway XX", are more restrictive than what is allowed with the "Cleared Approach" clearance.

If a clearance for any approach at the airport is allowed, and a clearance for only one specific approach is allowed, how would you read that something in between those two extremes, authorizing only some of the approaches, would not be?
 
"Cleared Approach" is allowed, which authorizes the pilot to fly any standard or special instrument approach for that airport. "Cleared RNAV Approach", or "Cleared approach Runway XX", are more restrictive than what is allowed with the "Cleared Approach" clearance.

If a clearance for any approach at the airport is allowed, and a clearance for only one specific approach is allowed, how would you read that something in between those two extremes, authorizing only some of the approaches, would not be?
While I agree there are situations in which ATC doesn't care, I don't see a reason that cleared any approach on one end and cleared for a specific named approach on the other hand must necessarily have a middle area in which a partial title means any version.

My personal solution is the same one I use in many situations. I tell ATC what I will do. We also have a Y&Z setup at my home base, so BTDT. If I planned the RNAV 9 Y, my readback to "Cleared RNAV 9 approach" would be, "cleared RNAV 9 Yankee."
 
"Cleared Approach" is allowed, which authorizes the pilot to fly any standard or special instrument approach for that airport. "Cleared RNAV Approach", or "Cleared approach Runway XX", are more restrictive than what is allowed with the "Cleared Approach" clearance.

If a clearance for any approach at the airport is allowed, and a clearance for only one specific approach is allowed, how would you read that something in between those two extremes, authorizing only some of the approaches, would not be?

I never said authorizing anything in between the two extremes wouldn’t be allowed. The .65 states “to require…” If the controller doesn’t require an X or Y in the clearance, then they don’t have to state as such. All the .65 states is an example of the phraseology of an X & Y RNAV clearance and then the reason why the letters are published in the approach plate. Doesn’t make it mandatory to issue one of the two.
 
But the real question is, is it required to specify X or Y in the clearance if more than one RNAV is specified for the runway? The .65 just gives an example of the phraseology for an X and Y clearance. Doesn’t state that shall be given.
It says “…the name of the approach as published on the approach chart…” You can drop the name if any approach can be flown. And you can drop the runway reference if there is only one of a particular type of approach. But other than dropping the runway number, nothing is said about shortening the name.

1. To require an aircraft to execute a particular instrument approach procedure, specify in the approach clearance the name of the approach as published on the approach chart. Where more than one procedure is published on a single chart and a specific procedure is to be flown, amend the approach clearance to specify execution of the specific approach to be flown. If only one instrument approach of a particular type is published, the approach needs not be identified by the runway reference.
 
While I agree there are situations in which ATC doesn't care, I don't see a reason that cleared any approach on one end and cleared for a specific named approach on the other hand must necessarily have a middle area in which a partial title means any version.

My personal solution is the same one I use in many situations. I tell ATC what I will do. We also have a Y&Z setup at my home base, so BTDT. If I planned the RNAV 9 Y, my readback to "Cleared RNAV 9 approach" would be, "cleared RNAV 9 Yankee."
It's also know as The Least Cost of Being Wrong doctrine.
 
It says “…the name of the approach as published on the approach chart…” You can drop the name if any approach can be flown. And you can drop the runway reference if there is only one of a particular type of approach. But other than dropping the runway number, nothing is said about shortening the name.

1. To require an aircraft to execute a particular instrument approach procedure, specify in the approach clearance the name of the approach as published on the approach chart. Where more than one procedure is published on a single chart and a specific procedure is to be flown, amend the approach clearance to specify execution of the specific approach to be flown. If only one instrument approach of a particular type is published, the approach needs not be identified by the runway reference.

But that’s only if the controller requires it. If they don’t require a particular RNAV, there’s nothing forcing them to state the name as depicted on the approach plate.

The .65 would have to be written in such a way that states “where there are multiple straight in approaches to the same runway that use the same approach aid (HI-TACAN Z, RNAV Y), the alphabetical identifier shall be included in the clearance.” But, it doesn’t state that. And to assume that a controller can simply state “cleared for approach” but yet can’t state, “cleared RNAV approach” would make no sense.
 
But that’s only if the controller requires it. If they don’t require a particular RNAV, there’s nothing forcing them to state the name as depicted on the approach plate.

The .65 would have to be written in such a way that states “where there are multiple straight in approaches to the same runway that use the same approach aid (HI-TACAN Z, RNAV Y), the alphabetical identifier shall be included in the clearance.” But, it doesn’t state that. And to assume that a controller can simply state “cleared for approach” but yet can’t state, “cleared RNAV approach” would make no sense.
There is something forcing them to “…state the name as depicted on the approach plate…” Here it is again with highlights.

1. To require an aircraft to execute a particular instrument approach procedure, specify in the approach clearance the name of the approach as published on the approach chart. Where more than one procedure is published on a single chart and a specific procedure is to be flown, amend the approach clearance to specify execution of the specific approach to be flown. If only one instrument approach of a particular type is published, the approach needs not be identified by the runway reference.
 
Just ask for clarification, if the controller gets asked enough times, he/she will figure out that it's much more verbiage economical to say "Rnav Y" than just "Rnav". The absolute worst time to figure out the controller wanted you to fly Y instead of Z is when you are in the middle of executing the missed approach. If it's a question in your mind get it clarified.
 
There is something forcing them to “…state the name as depicted on the approach plate…” Here it is again with highlights.

1. To require an aircraft to execute a particular instrument approach procedure, specify in the approach clearance the name of the approach as published on the approach chart. Where more than one procedure is published on a single chart and a specific procedure is to be flown, amend the approach clearance to specify execution of the specific approach to be flown. If only one instrument approach of a particular type is published, the approach needs not be identified by the runway reference.

That statement isn’t forcing them. “To require…”is what’s important here. If it isn’t required, which the controller determines, then stating the “name of the approach as published on the approach chart” isn’t mandatory. In the OP’s case, obviously the controller didn’t find it necessary (to require) to limit them on which version of the RNAV to do execute.

It would be ridiculous to say a controller can say “cleared approach” and allowing them to do anything but yet if they’re gonna clear someone for a particular type of approach, the alphabetical identifier must be given.
 
The absolute worst time to figure out the controller wanted you to fly Y instead of Z is when you are in the middle of executing the missed approach.
It's not just the missed. They could be two totally different approaches.
 
I’ll even break this down further because I know some are saying well an RNAV (GPS) approach is a “particular instrument approach procedure,” therefore it must be cleared as named in the approach plate. Negative, an RNAV (GPS) is a type of approach but the X & Y are two particular IAPs that may or may not be required to issue in a clearance. Unless they are advertising on the ATIS which particular IAP (X of Y) is in use or the controller tells the pilot to expect X or Y, then it’s up to the controller if they simply want to say “cleared (type) approach.”
 
This is another age-old issue. Training material should start with "cleared approach" as the most rudimentary form of an approach clearance, then work up through increasing levels of specificity from there. We did that in a live training course a few years ago and it was met with a room full of jaws agape.

Instead, the first exposure to approach clearances for pilots tends to be a PTAC for a precision approach, "[distance] from [reference], fly heading [intercept heading], maintain [altitude] until established on the localizer, cleared ILS RWY [rwy number] approach."

For this specific case, as crazy as it might seem, if the controller didn't specify the RNAV Y or Z, then 'cleared RNAV RWY 9 approach' means the pilot can fly either, despite what might have been _specifically_ requested earlier. What matters is the approach clearance, not the request. This is further mitigated by the fact that the controller's initial verification was, essentially, "you want the RNAV RWY 9, right?" which also didn't specify the Y or Z.

It's very common for tower to issue alternate missed instructions in the event of a missed in any case, so the published missed might not have been relevant, OR, the missed approaches might not vary enough to warrant a distinction as the radar controller could easily protect for both. In this specific case, the missed approaches vary radically between the two approaches, so, I can only imagine it was a slow news day and the controller was happy to protect for both, OR it was an oversight on the controller's behalf.

Lastly, it's frustrating that the CFII wouldn't have covered this as a practical matter during training. A DPE isn't likely to cover it, but if a CFII wants their candidate to fly with confidence in the system, matters like this should be covered during training. I get that not every CFII is going to know the 7110.65 inside and out, but having multiple RNAV approaches to the same runway is somewhat commonplace - this should be addressed during training, along with how to properly request the approach by name, "RNAV Yankee runway niner."

I disagree that clarification is required when receiving the clearance (unless it's because the pilot isn't aware of the guidance regarding approach clearances). Presumably, the controller knows there's multiple RNAV RWY 9 approaches and would've specified one vs the other if required. The fact that he/she didn't definitively means you can fly either.

This is in the same category as being assigned a speed restriction in the terminal environment, and then knowing that a subsequent approach clearance cancels any previous speed restrictions, unless a new speed restriction is assigned as part of the approach clearance. There's no need to ask. I'm all for seeking clarification where ambiguity exists, however, the approach clearance (much like the speed restriction example) is not ambiguous.
 
coma24 - Thank you for a great explanation. My only question is you state "...OR it was an oversight on the controller's behalf" and "There's no need to ask" given a situation like the OP described. How would a pilot know if it was a potential mistake if we don't clarify in a situation like this?
 
Presumably, the controller knows there's multiple RNAV RWY 9 approaches and would've specified one vs the other if required. The fact that he/she didn't definitively means you can fly either.
A presumption is no guarantee of what’s going through the controller’s mind at the moment. I’ve had several occasions where the controller’s presumption turned out not to match the chart or my clearance. The clarification attempt was definitely a good idea.
 
coma24 - Thank you for a great explanation. My only question is you state "...OR it was an oversight on the controller's behalf" and "There's no need to ask" given a situation like the OP described. How would a pilot know if it was a potential mistake if we don't clarify in a situation like this?
There was nothing to suggest that the controller had made an oversight. The clearance was compliant with the 7110.65 and clearances of this type are not uncommon. The only reason a question was raised was that the pilot was unfamiliar with this method of issuing an approach clearance.
 
That statement isn’t forcing them. “To require…”is what’s important here. If it isn’t required, which the controller determines, then stating the “name of the approach as published on the approach chart” isn’t mandatory. In the OP’s case, obviously the controller didn’t find it necessary (to require) to limit them on which version of the RNAV to do execute.

It would be ridiculous to say a controller can say “cleared approach” and allowing them to do anything but yet if they’re gonna clear someone for a particular type of approach, the alphabetical identifier must be given.
Ok. I'm seeing your point now
 
coma24 - Thank you for a great explanation. My only question is you state "...OR it was an oversight on the controller's behalf" and "There's no need to ask" given a situation like the OP described. How would a pilot know if it was a potential mistake if we don't clarify in a situation like this?

I should've addressed that as it did cross my mind at the time, however the post was already pretty darned long :)

My assumptions were that the chances of going missed are slim outside of a training environment, AND there would be time resolve any misunderstanding the moment the controller identifies that the missed approach doesn't match what they had in mind.
 
There was nothing to suggest that the controller had made an oversight. The clearance was compliant with the 7110.65 and clearances of this type are not uncommon. The only reason a question was raised was that the pilot was unfamiliar with this method of issuing an approach clearance.

My point is that it's theoretically possible that a controller might not recall that the airport has multiple RNAV approaches to the same runway. Hence, it's theoretically possible that they would issue a clearance which permits one of multiple approaches to be conducted when it wasn't the controller's intention to do so. I'm not arguing that it's likely. In fact, even allowing for the fact that it might be possible, it didn't tip the scales to the point where I'd seek clarification when being issued the clearance.
 
There was nothing to suggest that the controller had made an oversight. The clearance was compliant with the 7110.65 and clearances of this type are not uncommon. The only reason a question was raised was that the pilot was unfamiliar with this method of issuing an approach clearance.
I would consider the controller remiss in not clarifying the pilot’s confusion, however.
 
Back
Top