Old Geek
Pattern Altitude
If I'm flying without VFR flight following and I wish to transit class C airspace, do I contact approach or the tower? How about to land?
Class C airspace
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zaitcev
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Pete Zaitcev
Contact approach, according to the sector (usually a white background with purple border on the sectional). Say type, position, intentions, like "landing at The International". The approach will hand you off to tower.
Old Geek
Pattern Altitude
Thanks. I found this... http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9124 and it pretty much explained the issue of controlling authority.
ajstoner21
Cleared for Takeoff
What Pete Said.
But I wanted to add, it doesn't matter if you have Flight Following or not. As a VFR aircraft, they don't HAVE to hand you off to approach. VFR stuff is workload permitting.
So, if you have flight following, and you know you are getting close to an airspace border and you don't hear anything, speak up.
But I wanted to add, it doesn't matter if you have Flight Following or not. As a VFR aircraft, they don't HAVE to hand you off to approach. VFR stuff is workload permitting.
So, if you have flight following, and you know you are getting close to an airspace border and you don't hear anything, speak up.
poadeleted20
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Since you don't need a clearance to enter Class C, if you're still receiving flight following when you reach the Class C boundary, you're good to go, since you're in 2-way communication with the ATC radar facility with jurisdiction over that area.
roncachamp
Final Approach
ajstoner21
Cleared for Takeoff
So just having 2-way radio communication with Center is good? (supposing they never handed you off to approach) ?
roncachamp
Final Approach
ajstoner21
Cleared for Takeoff
Thats what I was thinking....
poadeleted20
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If ATC screws up, then of course it's an issue, but that's true if it's a TRACON just as much as if it's an ARTCC.
I don't think so. I think you need to be in communication with the ATC facility providing air traffic services in the specific airspace that you're in. If there is an approach facility in operation that has responsibility for that class C airspace, then I think you are in hot water if you are in the class C without being in communication with them, unless ATC has explicitly instructed you to talk to someone else.
For example, the ATC facility providing air traffic services for the San Jose class C airspace is Norcal Approach, so talking to Oakland ARTCC would not meet the requirement.
ajstoner21
Cleared for Takeoff
Thats what I had initially thought. Ron's first post confused me at first.
JeffDG
Touchdown! Greaser!
The issue is, you have no way of knowing who is responsible for the airspace. The LOAs between sectors are not generally published.
I think it would be rather difficult for them to bust you if you're squawking and talking, and ATC doesn't bother to hand you off to the correct controller. You've established two-way communications with ATC, and for all you know they've coordinated in the background your transition.
If a TRACON controller fails to hand you off to the controller who is working the class C, if both controllers are part of the same facility, then you have established "two-way radio communications with the ATC facility...providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace."
Obviously it could be a safety issue, of course.
The reg doesn't say "sector"; it says "facility." Norcal Approach is an ATC facility. Oakland Center is another ATC facility.
If Oakland Center doesn't hand me off to Norcal Approach when I'm getting close to entering a class C area in Northern California, I'm going to query them about it before entering.
poadeleted20
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Pilots are not responsible for knowing where the sector boundaries or even the TRACON/ARTCC boundaries are. If you're getting flight following, it's the controller's responsibility to either hand you off or terminate services when you reach the end of that controller's airspace. Further, if you're receiving flight following, even from center,, and your path will take you into B/C/D-space, that controller is obligated to either coordinate your transit, hand you off to the controller who owns that space, or terminate service so you can coordinate your own entry. That's written in the controller's handbook.
gprellwitz
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As you know, if you're going to transit a piece of one sector within an ATC facility while talking to another sector, they'll likely establish a point-out, where controller 1 says, in effect, "I've got this guy who'll be in your airspace for x minutes. Can I continue to work him, or should I hand him over to your frequency for x minutes?" Of course, this all goes on behind the scenes, so the pilot never know's he's in another sector (providing the point-out is acknowledged.) Does the same capability exist between ATC facilities, whereby a Center controller can do a point-out to an Approach controller?
poadeleted20
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I have no idea, and frankly, as a pilot, that's not my concern.
gprellwitz
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While my question was in response to your post, I kind of doubted that it would preclude others from responding, too!
And, while it may not be my concern it is of interest to me.
roncachamp
Final Approach
Looking at various sectionals, I can't find any Class C airspace that doesn't have a nearby notation similar to this:
CTC METROPOLIS APP WITHIN
20 NM ON 123.4 345.6
The facility responsible for the Class C airspace is the one identified in the notation. If you're approaching the Class C boundary and not in two-way radio communications with that facility you're about to violate FAR 91.130.
ARTCC coordinate the transition of Class C airspace? Never gonna happen. The Class C airspace boundary is probably 30 miles or so from the Center/Approach boundary and Center can't provide Class C services.
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roncachamp
Final Approach
Can you tell us where in the controller's handbook that obligation by center to coordinate the transition of B/C-space is written?
roncachamp
Final Approach
Yes, but a point out is for situations where traffic will be in the airspace of another sector or facility just briefly, or running along a boundary. Class C airspace generally extends no more than ten miles from the core airport while the approach control boundary is 30 or 40 miles from the airport.
Eamon
Line Up and Wait
I have been cleared to land at KBDL by BDL approach over 20 times without a ding on my record even though the clearance is supposed to come from the tower.
I have gone through KISPs "C" airspace many times while still with center on VFR flight following. It goes like this as Mike picks up the landline.... "Hey Bob, I got a hand off for you going to KHWV" (center) "Mike, just keep him, He will probably be back in you sector in a min anyway" (approach)
Let ATC worry about ATC
Stop over thinking everything & fly the dam plane
........................................................
There is another airport in the Class "C" of KISP
If taking off from an satellite airport inside the "C" one can contact the tower directly on approach to land.
If coming from outside the "C" veil & landing, One must talk to approach first.
I have gone through KISPs "C" airspace many times while still with center on VFR flight following. It goes like this as Mike picks up the landline.... "Hey Bob, I got a hand off for you going to KHWV" (center) "Mike, just keep him, He will probably be back in you sector in a min anyway" (approach)
Let ATC worry about ATC
Stop over thinking everything & fly the dam plane
........................................................
There is another airport in the Class "C" of KISP
If taking off from an satellite airport inside the "C" one can contact the tower directly on approach to land.
If coming from outside the "C" veil & landing, One must talk to approach first.
You have obviously flown there enough to know what their normal procedure is. If I fly to an unfamiliar class C without having any way to know the local procedures, and if I'm still talking to Center as I get close, I'm going to ask "Do I need to be talking to approach control?' If they say no, I'm going to take their word for it.
zaitcev
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This may go the other way locally. Flying from KABQ to Denver, ABQ Center usually attempts to hand you over just north of FTI. If Denver even agrees to it, they keep me for a while, and the always dump me on PUB's approach... then pick me back up (hopefuly). They always think that they are so busy. Same thing happens around KROW, and Roswell is not even Class C: it's a class D field (no idea why Class D field has an approach controller, don't ask me).
denverpilot
Tied Down
I don't think ZDV "dumps" you on PUB.
KPUB "owns" that low-level airspace everyone funnels through, headed for KCOS.
You'll also get "dumped" to KCOS when you get there.
If you were higher... You'd probably stay with ZDV down there.
Depends on their letters-of-agreement with KPUB and KCOS over how high the TRACONs want to control things.
Those altitudes may be higher than the published tops of their respective airspace.
KPUB "owns" that low-level airspace everyone funnels through, headed for KCOS.
You'll also get "dumped" to KCOS when you get there.
If you were higher... You'd probably stay with ZDV down there.
Depends on their letters-of-agreement with KPUB and KCOS over how high the TRACONs want to control things.
Those altitudes may be higher than the published tops of their respective airspace.
Clark1961
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Well, ROW has to deal with intergalactic traffic so that takes a bit of coordination...
Old Geek
Pattern Altitude
We're up to 27 replies to what I thought was a pretty simple question. Which leads me to believe that perhaps the FAA could do a little better explaining the subject.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Not really. They cover it very succinctly on the charts, as others have pointed out. "Contact XXX Approach on xxx.xxx" is all you really need to know in-flight.
The differences in who handles the airspace out of what building and from which RADAR is their responsibility to know and they'll provide appropriate on-air instructions as necessary. You call, you squawk, they find your target and hand you to whomever covers where you're located in the airspace.
We all discuss the details online mostly out of curiosity and learning about how they accomplish all that "magic". But it doesn't really matter. Anyone can follow the easy, published, rules.
The differences in who handles the airspace out of what building and from which RADAR is their responsibility to know and they'll provide appropriate on-air instructions as necessary. You call, you squawk, they find your target and hand you to whomever covers where you're located in the airspace.
We all discuss the details online mostly out of curiosity and learning about how they accomplish all that "magic". But it doesn't really matter. Anyone can follow the easy, published, rules.
eMKay
Pre-takeoff checklist
No it's pretty simple, it's just this site tends to over analyze everything. Call approach control before entering, tell them who, what, and where, follow instructions after that. Simple. If you're landing in the area they will tell you to report when the field in sight, if you're transiting they will hand you off. I call flight following on every flight around here whether I'm actually in class C or not since my home field is right under the shelf and right against the 5 mile surface circle. I got flight following from BQR to Penn Yan NY and was handed off from Buffalo, to Rochester, back to Buffalo, then to Niagara Falls tower (for my 3 required towered solo landings) then Buffalo again. I only entered class C airspace on the leg from Niagara Falls to BQR.
roncachamp
Final Approach
Perhaps they did come from the tower. Prior to the Comair crash at Lexington it wasn't unusual to combine approach and tower functions in the control tower.
KHWV is in New York TRACON airspace, not center.
RotorAndWing
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Eamon
Line Up and Wait
Wow, thanks for that contribution. You must be a super smart guy. Maybe you could come over & teach me so more about airspace.
You must be the life of the party while in the middle of a story you correct people with unimportant, to the story, facts.
N2124v
Line Up and Wait
Pretty simple, do what the little white boxes say...
roncachamp
Final Approach
I'd be happy to teach you more about airspace but I won't come over, just ask your questions here.
I wouldn't do that.
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flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
Yeah, we're easily distracted. Webboard ADD.
I think it's a lack of reading comprehension combined with our penchant for addressing every possible permutation of the problem (ie, the Norcal Approach example), and sometimes the original question gets forgotten! So, I'll try to answer it below.Approach. Just like every initial radio call, the format should be who you're calling, who you are, where you are, what you want. The approach frequencies for class C airspace are listed in magenta-bordered white boxes near the airspace in question as well as in the Airport/Facility Directory.
Example: "Madison Approach, Cessna 1234A over Lake Koshkonong at 4,500, request to transition your airspace enroute to Reedsburg."
The rest of the exchange will likely go something like this:
Approach: "Cessna 34A, squawk 0456, Madison altimeter 2992."
You: "Squawk 0456, altimeter 2992, Cessna 34A."
Approach, a moment later: "Cessna 34A, radar contact 24 miles southeast of Madison at 4,500, proceed as requested, advise prior to any altitude changes."
You: "Wilco, 34A."
(You won't necessarily hear the "advise prior" but there will often be additional instructions such as that given once you're identified.)
[/quote]How about to land?[/QUOTE]
Also call Approach. Same type of format: Who you're calling, who you are, where you are, what you want. Example:
"Madison Approach, Cessna 1234A, over Juneau at 4,500, landing with Whiskey."
That gets across a lot of information with minimal use of the frequency: Tail number, location, altitude, what you want, and that you have the ATIS. After 900 hours or so flying out of a Class C, I haven't gotten it any shorter than that!
The rest of the exchange is likely to go like this:
Approach: "Cessna 34A, Squawk 0457."
You: "Squawk 0457, 34A."
Approach, a moment later: "Cessna 34A, radar contact 35 miles northeast of Madison at 4,500" and often either landing instructions such as "Make right base, runway 32" or vectors, such as "Fly heading 220, vectors for sequence." You might also be asked to report the field in sight.
Eventually, as you get closer to the field (and if you're asked for the "in sight" report, as soon as you report such) they'll tell you "Cessna 34A, contact tower, 119.3." You'll reply "Contact tower, 34A" and switch to the tower frequency. Here's a typical exchange at that point:
You: "Madison Tower, Cessna 1234A, right base to 32"
Tower: "Cessna 34A, runway 32, cleared to land."
You: "Cleared to land runway 32, Cessna 34A."
You may also get something like "traffic departing prior to your arrival, cleared to land runway 32" or something like that, or if the winds have changed much since the ATIS was cut they may give you an updated wind report, that sort of thing.
I think the key is to listen carefully, understand and follow the instructions, and be flexible. I do not like it when students or new pilots use "scripts" for ATC exchanges, as things will OFTEN deviate from those "scripts" and I've heard it lead to problems - IE "Cessna 57C, hold short, traffic on a half mile final" and the airplane replied "Cleared for takeoff, Cessna 57C" which, as you might imagine, earned him an ass-chewing.
If you have ANY confusion as to what ATC expects from you or if you simply didn't hear them, ask them to clarify or repeat! There are plenty of situations where a misunderstanding can be dangerous, so be sure you know what is being asked of you! The controllers are human too, and they'd much rather give you a repeat or clarification than have you do something unexpected.
Hope this helps!
flightwriter
Line Up and Wait
(Bumped thread)
Thank you all for this info. I'm planning a cross-country flight this weekend from SAF to E80 (Belen) and I was curious what to expect from ABQ TRACON while transitioning through the Class C over ABQ. I've flown dozens of times to and from ABQ as a student... but I've never transitioned through Charlie.
So, after reading up on things and the posts in this thread, it's my understanding that I'll:
-Establish flight following with ABQ Center once clear of SAF airspace
-Expect the handoff from Center to ABQ Approach en route. If I'm not handed off prior to 20 miles out (they have ALWAYS handed me off before) ask Center if they want me to go to Approach.
-Once communication is established with Approach, I'm good to enter and transition through Charlie with no additional guidance, except if I'm instructed to vector, etc.
-Advise Approach when I have E80 in sight and request change to advisory frequency, assuming I'm clear of Class C.
Am I missing anything?
Thank you all for this info. I'm planning a cross-country flight this weekend from SAF to E80 (Belen) and I was curious what to expect from ABQ TRACON while transitioning through the Class C over ABQ. I've flown dozens of times to and from ABQ as a student... but I've never transitioned through Charlie.
So, after reading up on things and the posts in this thread, it's my understanding that I'll:
-Establish flight following with ABQ Center once clear of SAF airspace
-Expect the handoff from Center to ABQ Approach en route. If I'm not handed off prior to 20 miles out (they have ALWAYS handed me off before) ask Center if they want me to go to Approach.
-Once communication is established with Approach, I'm good to enter and transition through Charlie with no additional guidance, except if I'm instructed to vector, etc.
-Advise Approach when I have E80 in sight and request change to advisory frequency, assuming I'm clear of Class C.
Am I missing anything?
zaitcev
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No need to assume anything, Charlie ends at the casino, good 12 miles before Belen. You're going to be well clear. However, it's still the area of responsibility of ABQ Approach, so you won't go back on Center before reaching Belen.
Is there anything interesting going on at Belen this weekend, like a fly-in?