Civil Air Patrol

RyanB

RyanB

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Ryan
I know we’ve probably covered this in past a few thousand times, but I’m curious on everyone’s opinion of CAP.

Trying to think of ways to ‘spread my wings’ so to speak and build some more experience with different types of flying missions.

I’ve read some on it, but I’m still confused how it all works. They’ve got some new(er) 182’s that they fly around here. Would be nice to get my hands on one and build a little cross-country time on someone else’s dime. My understanding is that you can join and fly as a private pilot...correct?
 
Rgbeard said:
Seems like they do little flying, and lots of marching on the airport ramp.
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Kind of what I’ve wondered. Last thing I want is another time waster spent listening to someone else gaggle at a meeting.

I figure there’s a catch 22 somewhere.
 
Ryanb said:
I’ve read some on it, but I’m still confused how it all works. They’ve got some new(er) 182’s that they fly around here. Would be nice to get my hands on one and build a little cross-country time on someone else’s dime. My understanding is that you can join and fly as a private pilot...correct?
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Correct. However, it is a long and hard slog to get to the point where the taxpayer or customers (state emergency management, forestry) pay for your flight time.

I have been in two squadrons, never owned a class A uniform and never did any 'marching'. Slacks and 'corporate' polo is all the uniform that was ever required.

It all comes down to the local unit and the state (wing) you are in. They range from good to awful. If you have a unit that has a plane and lots of customer funded flying, you may get plenty of interesting flying out of it. Without that, there is not much left to do. 406mHz ELTs, the demise of general aviation and state assets elbowing their way into SAR has made the 'emergency services' mission pretty much obsolete. If there is no other work the wing has rustled up, it has become somewhat of an idle exercise.
 
weilke said:
Correct. However, it is a long and hard slog to get to the point where the taxpayer or customers (state emergency management, forestry) pay for your flight time.
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I’m sure it’s the typical, scrub toilets and kiss a few rear-ends before you can climb the ladder?

One of my flight instructors was a lead mission pilot at the local squadron and he always would talk about the various ‘missions’ that he got to fly. Kinda made me think how nice it must be to fly these SAR’s on Uncle Sam’s dime. Probably not the luxury that I envision it to be.
 
Your local "wing commander" can answer your questions......

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Doc Holliday said:
Your local "wing commander" can answer your questions......

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‘If I join, can I join the flying ranks?’

‘Of course young man...just sign here on the dotted line...’
 
Ryanb said:
I’m sure it’s the typical, scrub toilets and kiss a few rear-ends before you can climb the ladder?
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Not really that. Its that the organization itself has a way of standing in its own way. Limited access to instructors, limited funding to do training, cumbersome buerocracy to get anything done. Also, an organization that has public funding yet expects its members to pay for their training. I am in the fire department. If I take an engine or ambulance for driver-training, the kid behind the wheel doesn't pay for the fuel or a 'maintenance fee'.

One of my flight instructors was a lead mission pilot at the local squadron and he always would talk about the various ‘missions’ that he got to fly. Kinda made me think how nice it must be to fly these SAR’s on Uncle Sam’s dime. Probably not the luxury that I envision it to be.
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If you have an 'in' at that squadron, you may be able to get to mission pilot status in pretty short order. Again, all depends on the local organization, the people and the missions they have available.
 
weilke said:
Limited access to instructors, limited funding to do training, cumbersome buerocracy to get anything done. Also, an organization that has public funding yet expects its members to pay for their training. I am in the fire department. If I take an engine or ambulance for driver-training, the kid behind the wheel doesn't pay for the fuel or a 'maintenance fee'.
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Enough said..

Figured there was a catch 22.

Thanks for playing everyone!
 
You might give a squadron a look, invest one evening - the sqdns and wings vary enormously, from stop, stumble, and fall, to semi-rational. You'll figure out which pretty quickly.

They are always hurting for mission pilots, and once you jump through the hoops to get the qual, there is no reason to pay for flying a CAP airplane ever again. I flew if it was funded; if not, I flew elsewhere.

I did it for 14 years, until the nonsense wore me out. Much depends on your tolerance level for silly a** crap. Some wings, and the national HQ, have had some very sketchy ethics issues, ending in court cases, firings, reprisals etc. You can avoid most of that noise easily enough. Usually.
 
It could be a good hobby.
It should get you involved with helping and somewhat mentoring kids.
I was told it takes 200 hours minimum to become an actual mission pilot. You can be in the plane and be a mission commander without those hours. But to actually be PIC you'll need the 200.
The wing is going to be the determining factor in your experience.... As well as your enthusiasm and level of commitment.
As others have said, go to a meeting or two, get to know the folks and see what your thoughts are.
You might meet other pilots, or maybe even a nice girl.
Edit: to clarify, those 200 hours can be previous experience... Not accumulated while in CAP.
I don't think they do IMC conditions either. (IIRC)
Although IFR rating would be nice to have if you were out on a mission in the Smokies..
 
Skyrys62 said:
I don't think they do IMC conditions either. (IIRC)
Although IFR rating would be nice to have if you were out on a mission in the Smokies..
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They do, and an IR is a requirement for some missions. Since some high time senior cap pilots put some planes in the dirt during instrument flight, getting approval for flights under IMC has been limited further.
 
To the OP, where do you live? Do you have your own plane? If your on the east coast you might want to look to see if there is a local Coast Guard Auxiliaries Squadron, with an Air Branch. Many different missions year round, you use your approved aircraft and get reimbursed by Uncle Sam.

Some hoops to jump thru, but you will get to fly. You’ll need to install an Aux antenna in your aircraft to accommodate a marine band radio and there are currency and training requirements to meet and maintain.
 
CAP must work for some people, to me it is a mix of the Boy Scouts and the Air Force. People with meaningless rank and merit badges.
 
CAP has been patrolling the levee system in Oklahoma over the past week, so they do still serve a function of sorts. It's just that real SAR or gov't-req'd missions don't come around all that often for most wings.
 
To the OP, the most important thing said in this thread is that it depends on the squadron. Some are such that you would never have a chance to fly and others are begging for pilots. I was involved for awhile and there was just too much hooey to go through. All the online training and such just wore me out while I have many other things to keep up with. I didn’t pay my dues this year and every time I see someone from the squadron they tell me how bad they need pilots.

I would suggest that you attend a meeting and see what the local squadron is like and get a look at the process.
 
Flying a mission later this afternoon to survey tornado damage here in Kansas. Flying a mission later this week to simulate A-10 strike profiles for Air Force JTAC forward air controllers over a military live fire range. I don't get to fly a ton, but the missions I do get to fly are pretty cool. If there's money in the budget, proficiency flight profiles are covered. It all depends on the wing/squadron. I've found CAP mostly worth the hassle in exchange for the missions. Even flying in the right seat as a Mission Observer is still pretty cool.

But be prepared to jump thru a LOT of hoops to get to Mission Pilot.
 
The problem with 'going to a meeting' is that you don't see the molasses like buerocracy in action until you spent a year of regular effort. The 50 page pre-plan with a 10 page communications section just to do a 1/2 day SAREX (which then falls apart completely because the folks who wrote the plan can't operate their own equipment).
 
Nothing but old dudes who couldn’t fly in the military, wearing uniforms with more medals than a Mexican General, scamming flight time off of someone else's dime, while praying that the North Koreans park a sub offshore northern Cali so they can save the US from a sneak attack...and you’re required to get a high and tight and do PT Mon-Fri at 6 am.
 
Like others have said, quality of experience varies from place to place. I enjoyed the time I put in with the squadron where I used to live and was active with them right up until we moved. Once we got settled I investigated joining a squadron here. Couldn't find any information online for where or when local squadrons met nor whom to contact about finding out. Took that as a sign they weren't too keen on any outsiders so I left them alone.
 
Velocity173 said:
Nothing but old dudes who couldn’t fly in the military, wearing uniforms with more medals than a Mexican General, scamming flight time off of someone else's dime, while praying that the North Koreans park a sub offshore northern Cali so they can save the US from a sneak attack...and you’re required to get a high and tight and do PT Mon-Fri at 6 am.
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‘Nuff said.
 
The local CAP commander has tried to recruit me. I politely declined. Important service and for the most part, it’s good for the cadets, but no interest in working on my off week.
 
weilke said:
cumbersome buerocracy
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An eloquent post. I joined and was a member for a bit then stopped attending the meetings and did not renew. They are their own worst enemy.

Observations:
-obsessed with paperwork and beaurocracy
-no clear 'path' or defined way to rise in the ranks
-very few missions, and seem to always go to same 3 pilots
-I was youngest by 20 years and only non military.. didn't feel very welcome
-actually find the hoops they make you jump through to get behind the controls of a 182 somewhat insulting. A 500 hr instrument pilot will be made to sit as a mission observer (sit in the back seat), then go through all these other made up titles and fake ranks before you can actually fly a plane

Patently would not recommend.. I'd actively discourage

It's like, imagine if volunteering at the local soup kitchen first required you to go through 6 mo to 2 yrs of watching other people serve food before they let you help
 
Velocity173 said:
Nothing but old dudes who couldn’t fly in the military, wearing uniforms with more medals than a Mexican General, scamming flight time off of someone else's dime, while praying that the North Koreans park a sub offshore northern Cali so they can save the US from a sneak attack...and you’re required to get a high and tight and do PT Mon-Fri at 6 am.
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Tantalum said:
-very few missions, and seem to always go to same 3 pilots
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Over the years I was in two wings. In one of them, it was a sick joke how the few real life missions ended up going to the same three pilots wing wide. It was like magic, whenever a mission came out, they happened to be on a funded training mission in that part of the state and 'it made the most sense' for them to take it rather than calling up the local unit. Of course they were also the high muckimucks in the wing buerocracy who were on the call list for afrcc and the state police, so they would get pre-alerts if something or someone had gone missing....

It's like, imagine if volunteering at the local soup kitchen first required you to go through 6 mo to 2 yrs of watching other people serve food before they let you help
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What, you haven't done your month as 'assistant soup stirrer' yet ?

I understand that they need to have a checkout and mentorship process before they hand you the keys to a 1/2 mil plane. But if you restrict the ability to give that checkout to one guy who lives at the other end of the state and works for the airline, you are making it nearly impossible for any new pilots to come up the ranks.

Yes, local squadrons are bleeding for pilots, but wing has seemingly no interest to get them checked out.
 
They are starting a new squadron here in NE PA at my my home airport (kWBW). Saw a guy in a flight suit take one of the 172s from the FBO to presumably a give ride to someone. Jumped onto the runway and started back taxing without checking the pattern and forced the person on final to go around. Not a good look.
 
Without passing judgment on the merits of CAP - if you're joining CAP for you, chances are it won't be a good match for either party. If you're looking to help with the mission -- particularly youth development -- you might get some flying in on the side and make it a win-win.

In terms of just joining Civil Air Patrol in order to get free flying opportunities, you're not the first or last person to think of that, and most squadrons already have a steady stream of those folks poking their nose in through the front door.
 
Velocity173 said:
Nothing but old dudes who couldn’t fly in the military, wearing uniforms with more medals than a Mexican General, scamming flight time off of someone else's dime, while praying that the North Koreans park a sub offshore northern Cali so they can save the US from a sneak attack...and you’re required to get a high and tight and do PT Mon-Fri at 6 am.
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Depends. . .there are some low timers, for sure; but my sqdn also had two retired ATPs, an Eagle driver, and a Blackhawk pilot.

There are no grooming standards fir the adults, unless you want to wear the Air Force style uniform, which a lot of "wannabes" like to do. But I wore a polo shirt and gray slacks for 14 years. Wore a blue blazer just once, to a "do". Adults ("Senior" members) don't do PT; heck, most of them couldn't!

Some good flying - spent a fun night 65 miles east of Atlantic City, acting as a target for F-16s from Andrews (113th TFW). And some real SAR missions. . .

But those are few and far between, and the politics and administrivia made it not worth it to me. . .
 
I did a stint as an instructor for the Explorer Scouts and did nothing but show up and fly with students. We used the CAP airplane. Not sure if that counts...
 
CAP is the only way I could fly outside of work for free. However, I’m still on the fence even with that prospect.
 
I wish you could've seen them giving tie down lessons on the ramp. Or the kid in a loaded up CAP 182 that barged into the Class D and landed with no comms. The Swivel Chair Patrol is pretty entertaining.
 
CAP has its problems, but my experience with the organization has been much better than is being reported here.
 
ktup-flyer said:
I wish you could've seen them giving tie down lessons on the ramp. Or the kid in a loaded up CAP 182 that barged into the Class D and landed with no comms. The Swivel Chair Patrol is pretty entertaining.
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I think it's partly the common call sign - real easy to identify a CAP pilot effing up, while everyone else is more or less anonomous. My experience was the screw-ups were about in the same proportion as in the rest of GA.

Lot's of guys barge into Class D, or bust an altitude; we just don't associate them with a particular organization.

I have watched another CAP pilot struggle to land a 172 on 5,000' of runway, and another bust a Class B. And one, a CFI, scared spitless in the right seat because I drove down final at 60 knots in a 172, for a short field landing.

And also flew with some superior stick and rudder guys, as well. But nobody notices your call sign when you grease a x-wind on a short runway. . .So I think the pilot skill knock is mostly bogus - but the inane bureacracy, sleazy politics, and lack of missions is definitley real. . .
 
FlyingTiger said:
They are starting a new squadron here in NE PA at my my home airport (kWBW). Saw a guy in a flight suit take one of the 172s from the FBO to presumably a give ride to someone. Jumped onto the runway and started back taxing without checking the pattern and forced the person on final to go around. Not a good look.
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Lol. That’s grand!!! I’m based at KHZL. Not involved with CAP But I can tell you that that hanger seems to be open more than it’s closed.
 
Let’s not forget our forum favorite MAKG1.... God’s gift the the CAP cockpit who busted Bravo
 
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