Citation lost contact falcon field

I am about the same distance southwest. It was snowing but very calm. I don’t know that is a strange track and the Altitude was odd also. Varying a lot thousands of feet.


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Seems to have had a lot of airspeed variation.

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That little bird was pushing 40 years old (81 or 82 model). One of those 'affordable' jets, until you have to fix it. Likely six-pack type panel (I don't think many have upgraded those to any sort of glass.)
 
EFA9F242-6AE0-4E6B-988A-37EF0EE2667F.jpeg Thats the next county over from me. Snow day this AM.
 
The Gordon/Cherokee county border is a pretty undeveloped area. Scott Crossfield had his bad day near there a bunch of years ago.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
That little bird was pushing 40 years old (81 or 82 model). One of those 'affordable' jets, until you have to fix it. Likely six-pack type panel (I don't think many have upgraded those to any sort of glass.)
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What does that have to do with the situation?
 
Does anyone know why contact would be lost at 12,325 feet? Other than in-flight breakup or power loss? Not speculating, just want to understand the data.
 
I don’t have the link right now, but a friend sent me the Live ATC clip where he says he lost the left side AI, and that the autopilot disconnected and he was flying off the right side instruments.
 
There was a bit of a thing a few years ago upgrading these and diamond jets if I remember with glass panels and Williams engines. So it may not be totally a 40 year old plane with steam gauges. Which there is nothing wrong with I have flown many hours in Incase with them.


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That type of flight track in a plane like that would make sense if IMC getting hand flown. I imagine they are a handful. Especially if you are flying off the right side instruments as mentioned above.
 
Dave Theisen said:
I don’t have the link right now, but a friend sent me the Live ATC clip where he says he lost the left side AI, and that the autopilot disconnected and he was flying off the right side instruments.
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Oh man... :(
 
Dave Theisen said:
I don’t have the link right now, but a friend sent me the Live ATC clip where he says he lost the left side AI, and that the autopilot disconnected and he was flying off the right side instruments.
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That would explain the track.

Sounds eerily similar to the Citation crash in Utah a few years ago.
 
Dave Theisen said: ↑
I don’t have the link right now, but a friend sent me the Live ATC clip where he says he lost the left side AI, and that the autopilot disconnected and he was flying off the right side instruments.

I think that I would rather fly partial panel on my side than try to have a scan that went to the other side. Too easy to fix on the difficult to see, but primary instrument, and let heading and altitude get out of control.

A good scan of the remaining instruments on your side, with T&B as primary for heading, airspeed and ROC guiding altitude, would be easier than the twisting and turning to clearly see the horizon on the other side. A 180 away from the mountains would be good insurance, to, as the turbulence should have been less to the south east.

I certainly do not envy being in that much mess without all the instruments. If he customarily flew on autopilot, even tougher to keep the right side up. I wonder if his autopilot was controlled by the horizon that failed?

Sad when things go so wrong.
 
Okay, a question for you jet pilots...if partial panel IFR skills are problematic wouldn't it have been easiest to climb up out of the murk on a constant heading and get on top?
 
Does anyone have the link to that atc clip?
 
GRG55 said:
Okay, a question for you jet pilots...if partial panel IFR skills are problematic wouldn't it have been easiest to climb up out of the murk on a constant heading and get on top?
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If you can. That’s what the guy in Utah was trying to do when he lost control (single pilot).

Single pilot in a jet is not to be trifled with. A lot of single pilot companies right now are finding insurance companies won’t write them SP policies any more. That’s part of the shakeup going on in the aviation insurance industry this year.
 
Fearless Tower said:
If you can. That’s what the guy in Utah was trying to do when he lost control (single pilot).

Single pilot in a jet is not to be trifled with. A lot of single pilot companies right now are finding insurance companies won’t write them SP policies any more. That’s part of the shakeup going on in the aviation insurance industry this year.
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I have to disagree with you on the insurance issue. I have been flying Citations Single Pilot under a Single Pilot Exemption since 1982, with over 10,000 hours single pilot in Citations. I have never had a problem with insurance. Last month we just renewed the policy on our Citation Bravo. No issue at all. As a matter of fact my single pilot premium is the same premium if I was insuring a two pilot crew.
 
geezer said:
Dave Theisen said: ↑
I don’t have the link right now, but a friend sent me the Live ATC clip where he says he lost the left side AI, and that the autopilot disconnected and he was flying off the right side instruments.

I think that I would rather fly partial panel on my side than try to have a scan that went to the other side. Too easy to fix on the difficult to see, but primary instrument, and let heading and altitude get out of control.

A good scan of the remaining instruments on your side, with T&B as primary for heading, airspeed and ROC guiding altitude, would be easier than the twisting and turning to clearly see the horizon on the other side. A 180 away from the mountains would be good insurance, to, as the turbulence should have been less to the south east.

I certainly do not envy being in that much mess without all the instruments. If he customarily flew on autopilot, even tougher to keep the right side up. I wonder if his autopilot was controlled by the horizon that failed?

Sad when things go so wrong.
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When you loose any of the instruments on the pilots side, you do not scan back and forth from the pilots side to the co pilots side. You have a full panel of instruments on the co pilots side. You are taught to just look across the cockpit to fly. No difference than a 172 instructor in the right seat looking at the students instruments on the left side of the aircraft. I have over 10,000 hours single pilot in varies Citations. I have lost flight instruments on the pilots side several times over the last 40 years. It is not a big deal if you are properly trained and current in the aircraft.
 
Lots of assumptions here that 501RG was flying single pilot.
 
Larry Sturm said:
When you loose any of the instruments on the pilots side, you do not scan back and forth from the pilots side to the co pilots side. You have a full panel of instruments on the co pilots side. You are taught to just look across the cockpit to fly. No difference than a 172 instructor in the right seat looking at the students instruments on the left side of the aircraft. I have over 10,000 hours single pilot in varies Citations. I have lost flight instruments on the pilots side several times over the last 40 years. It is not a big deal if you are properly trained and current in the aircraft.
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Yeah, I was gonna make the point that even in an old Citation, the likelihood of a true partial panel is low. A displaced panel, to be sure. Of course, one must first identify that there is a problem with the instruments in front of them.
 
Bell206 said:
I seem to recall all Citations had standby attitude indicators. Or am I thinking of a different instrument?
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They should. At least every CE-500 I’ve flown had one.

This is going to be an interesting one. I’ll wait before posting anything further on it until the rumors are confirmed. It’s all hearsay at this point.
 
Bell206 said:
I seem to recall all Citations had standby attitude indicators. Or am I thinking of a different instrument?
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Mine did, it was a small one in the center stack.
I had the primary IA fail in my 441 many years ago, it takes out the autopilot and the radar, it isn’t a fun time, but it’s doable. RIP
 
Larry Sturm said:
I have to disagree with you on the insurance issue. I have been flying Citations Single Pilot under a Single Pilot Exemption since 1982, with over 10,000 hours single pilot in Citations. I have never had a problem with insurance. Last month we just renewed the policy on our Citation Bravo. No issue at all. As a matter of fact my single pilot premium is the same premium if I was insuring a two pilot crew.
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Well if you’re a pro pilot with 10k plus hours, that’s one thing. But the single pilot business owner for whom flying is ancillary to the business is the real problem.
 
Larry Sturm said:
I have to disagree with you on the insurance issue. I have been flying Citations Single Pilot under a Single Pilot Exemption since 1982, with over 10,000 hours single pilot in Citations. I have never had a problem with insurance. Last month we just renewed the policy on our Citation Bravo. No issue at all. As a matter of fact my single pilot premium is the same premium if I was insuring a two pilot crew.
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Who is your underwriter?

I obviously don’t pay your bills, but all I can say is that as a CE-500 SIC, the market is picking up right now because some are not getting renewed as SP.

If your premium didn’t increase, did the owner lower the hull value?

This is part of the greater insurance shakeup that AOPA and a lot of corporate groups are crying about. GA losses in the past two years have kicked the underwriters in the nuts and almost everyone is seeing some kind of premium increase.

If you truly renewed in the last month and didn’t see an increase while carrying the same hull value, you should consider yourself very lucky.
 
Bell206 said:
I seem to recall all Citations had standby attitude indicators. Or am I thinking of a different instrument?[/QUOTE
It’s not a pilot choice. You have to have a standby gyro by regulations.
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Fearless Tower said:
Who is your underwriter?

I obviously don’t pay your bills, but all I can say is that as a CE-500 SIC, the market is picking up right now because some are not getting renewed as SP.

If your premium didn’t increase, did the owner lower the hull value?

This is part of the greater insurance shakeup that AOPA and a lot of corporate groups are crying about. GA losses in the past two years have kicked the underwriters in the nuts and almost everyone is seeing some kind of premium increase.

If you truly renewed in the last month and didn’t see an increase while carrying the same hull value, you should consider yourself very lucky.[/QUOTE

You are obliviously informed.
Single Pilot you can fly a Citation I, II, SII, V, Ultra, Encore, Bravo, V, Ultra, CJ, CJ1,CJ2,CJ3,CJ4, along with several other brands of jets that can be flown single pilot. AOPA does not run the insurance market for jets. I don’t pay the bills either, I’m just a pilot and a former FAA Inspector and can tell you that you don’t know what you are talking about.
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Question coming from a VRF guy. In something like a Citation, if you loose AI and auto pilot, how hard is it to trim for best climb in IFR conditions?
 
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