Citation lost contact falcon field

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Fearless Tower said:
Who is your underwriter?

I obviously don’t pay your bills, but all I can say is that as a CE-500 SIC, the market is picking up right now because some are not getting renewed as SP.

If your premium didn’t increase, did the owner lower the hull value?

This is part of the greater insurance shakeup that AOPA and a lot of corporate groups are crying about. GA losses in the past two years have kicked the underwriters in the nuts and almost everyone is seeing some kind of premium increase.

If you truly renewed in the last month and didn’t see an increase while carrying the same hull value, you should consider yourself very lucky.
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o one

Nobody is not getting picked up Single Pilot. Who ever is giving you your information is full of crap. If you are trained, have been to Flight Safety and meet the requirements you will be insured. Your are a SIC, which means nothing. A SIC rating in only required if flying out of the US. You need to shut up about things you know nothing about.
 
AKBill said:
Question coming from a VRF guy. In something like a Citation, if you loose AI and auto pilot, how hard is it to trim for best climb in IFR conditions?
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Not hard at all!
Geosync said:
Well if you’re a pro pilot with 10k plus hours, that’s one thing. But the single pilot business owner for whom flying is ancillary to the business is the real problem.
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Yes, my 10,000 hours is only Citation, plus 2,000 helicopter, plus 3,000 turbo prop, plus 1,500 seaplanes, plus retired FAA Inspector, means nothing. You are correct, most business owners who fly aircraft like this do not receive the kind of training that a professional pilot receive. Schools like Simcom, etc, just gIve the owner enough training and check ride to meet the requirements.
 
Larry Sturm said:
It’s not a pilot choice. You have to have a standby gyro by regulations.
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That's what I thought. Just out of curiosity, why would one train to look at the co-pilot side instruments when the standby attitude ind is "closer" and use it to get one the ground or into VFR?
 
Bell206 said:
That's what I thought. Just out of curiosity, why would one train to look at the co-pilot side instruments when the standby attitude ind is "closer" and use it to get one the ground or into VFR?
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By regulation the standby gyro does have to be on the left hand side of the panel. Most of the old standby gyros in a a Citation of this age will give you a 2 hour back up supply of power. You could just look at this instrument, but from experience it’s just a lot easier to keep all of your focus on the co pilot panel.
 
Bell206 said:
That's what I thought. Just out of curiosity, why would one train to look at the co-pilot side instruments when the standby attitude ind is "closer" and use it to get one the ground or into VFR?
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Because it’s usually a small 2 inch instrument, placed in a bad location, not part of your normal scan. It’s much easier just to use the opposite side with your standard scan.
 
Rein Hart said:
Do those speeds reflect repeated icing encounters? Can the boots manage staying in the icing layer?
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Yes, the boots can handle a lot of ice. Technically you need 1/2 inch of ice or more before you even activate them.
 
Although, the Citation de ice and anti ice systems are not approved for severe icing.
 
Larry Sturm said:
You need to shut up about things you know nothing about.
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Nice. Your attitude won’t last here very long. How about you play nice and we can learn from you?

As far as insurance goes, unless the aviation media is wrong, there have been articles and news video about the incoming 2020 increases (10-100% reportedly).
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
Nice. Your attitude won’t last here very long. How about you play nice and we can learn from you?

As far as insurance goes, unless the aviation media is wrong, there have been articles and news video about the incoming 2020 increases (10-100% reportedly).
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I have no attitude. It’s just a fact, if you don’t know what your talking about be quite and don’t give false information.. Insurance increases every year. Has nothing to do with single pilot, jet, turbo prop, etc. This guy is a quote SIC, obviously not been in the business very long.
 
Larry Sturm said:
I have no attitude. It’s just a fact, if you don’t know what your talking about be quite and don’t give false information.. Insurance increases every year. Has nothing to do with single pilot, jet, turbo prop, etc. This guy is a quote SIC, obviously not been in the business very long.
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No, you've clearly demonstrated an attitude with your posts so far here. It's a good thing you fly single pilot, your "CRM" attitude is very apparent (Captain Rules Machine).
 
Larry Sturm said:
I have no attitude. It’s just a fact, if you don’t know what your talking about be quite and don’t give false information.. Insurance increases every year. Has nothing to do with single pilot, jet, turbo prop, etc. This guy is a quote SIC, obviously not been in the business very long.
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I’m very happy that you can still get plenty of work as SP, because you must be a real trip to overnight with....

Just so we’re clear. I happen to have an SIC type because I occasionally flew contract trips outside the US. I am not flying full time professionally right now as I have a very well paying instructing job. But, I still stay in touch with operators I used to contract with.

I thought I made it clear that I wasn’t calling you a liar, just pointing out that some are having trouble with insurance. You chose to attack me while making a fool of yourself at the same time. You said yourself you aren’t the one paying the bills and dealing with the brokers. Seems like you aren’t the person who really can say whether or not insurance is becoming an issue.
 
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Fearless Tower said:
I’m very happy that you can still get plenty of work as SP, because you must be a real trip to overnight with....
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So true, I get plenty of work SP, also fly for two multi pilot 135 Companies, also ex FAA Inspector, DPE. What do you do? I’m not hiding under some fake name like fearless tower, just stating the facts. There is not a problem getting Single Pilot Insurance as you stated. My company carries 100 million in liability insurance, 2 million in hull value on a Citation Bravo, insurance Single Pilot is not a problem. What are you flying that you can’t get insurance or to make the statement that single pilot can’t get insurance.
 
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Larry Sturm said:
I have no attitude. It’s just a fact, if you don’t know what your talking about be quite and don’t give false information.. Insurance increases every year. Has nothing to do with single pilot, jet, turbo prop, etc. This guy is a quote SIC, obviously not been in the business very long.
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Larry @Fearless Tower is a very knowledgeable guy. I don't think he would intentionally post information he does not feel is correct.

Your written statements do read harsh to me
 
Fearless Tower said:
I’m very happy that you can still get plenty of work as SP, because you must be a real trip to overnight with....

Just so we’re clear. I happen to have an SIC type because I occasionally flew contract trips outside the US. I am not flying full time professionally right now as I have a very well paying instructing job. But, I still stay in touch with operators I used to contract with.

I thought I made it clear that I wasn’t calling you a liar, just pointing out that some are having trouble with insurance. You chose to attack me while making a fool of yourself at the same time. You said yourself you aren’t the one paying the bills and dealing with the brokers. Seems like you aren’t the person who really can say whether or not insurance is becoming an issue.
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Wrong again, as Chief Pilot and DO I am the one who contracts and sees that the bills are paid. Show me wear I said I wasn’t the one paying the bills and dealing with brokers. I deal with brokers and approve all the bills. Your crazy, just like your false insurance information.
 
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AKBill said:
Larry @Fearless Tower is a very knowledgeable guy. I don't think he would intentionally post information he does not feel is correct.

Your written statements do read harsh to me[/QUOT
I agree with you. I don’t think he would intentionally post information that he does not feel is correct. But as he stated he is not a current corporate pilot, nor is he a Citation Single Pilot Operator. His insurance information is not correct.
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Larry Sturm said:
You need to shut up about things you know nothing about.
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Larry Sturm said:
Your crazy, just like your false insurance information.
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Coming onto the board and striking at members in a derogatory tone isn’t the way we play around here. There are ways to make your point without letting your arrogance show, and if can’t, than you won’t be here too long.
 
Ryanb said:
Coming onto the board and striking at members in a derogatory tone isn’t the way we play around here. Make your point without letting your arrogance show.
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Sorry you feel that way. I am just stating the facts as a Single Pilot Operator. Not someone reading about things and making comments about things that they do not know first hand.
 
Jetman...welcome. A few tips.

MANY of us here have been here a minute. We know each other and have met and hung out.
MOST of us are cordial.
SOME of us can tell someone they are wrong or an idiot without it ever being spotted.

You have a shi*ton of bonafides...we could all learn something for you and your experience. Slow your roll...take the gloves, head gear and mouthpiece off and hang out...this ain't no brawl...
 
Kelvin said:
Jetman...welcome. A few tips.

MANY of us here have been here a minute. We know each other and have met and hung out.
MOST of us are cordial.
SOME of us can tell someone they are wrong or an idiot without it ever being spotted.

You have a shi*ton of bonafides...we could all learn something for you and your experience. Slow your roll...take the gloves, head gear and mouthpiece off and hang out...this ain't no brawl...
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Not to mention the fact that Andrew isn’t a greenhorn to aviation.
 
Larry, it would help us if you quoted what your company paid last year, and this year, for the insurance, so we could see exactly what change, or no change has occurred. Most of us here write the checks for our insurance. Certainly, I have. Incidentally, I suspect that my accumulated certificates and licenses are more numerous than yours. I have 6 from my time in service alone, plus one from the Coast Guard to carry passengers for hire, and commercial vehicle for anything that is legal to drive on the road. Over a million miles of driving commercially, with only one accident, ruled by a judge as 100% the other parties fault. In spite of all those commercial miles driven, truck driver is not and never was my job description, the vehicles were incidental to my work.

You do come on rather strong here. On chat, I was not offended by your comments, but here, definitely, you know much more than anyone here, plus AOPA. They seem to be misled by their members, too.

One of the advantages your company has, most likely, is very high time pilots, which most small corporations cannot afford to hire.

Time to get off the soap box.
 
Now, back to guessing what happened to the Citation and all aboard it. The real discussion topic here.

I have been the cockpit of all but one of the pre 747 Air force 1's, and they have outstanding redundancy, as well as pilots with incredible skills, but the business jets in general, I have no flight time, so the folks here who have flown them are my guide. Piston twins, a little bit.
 
13117206215_fe0ed6b954_b.jpg

Was beautiful. IMC, possible icing, and instrument failure...quite a workload.
 
Dave Theisen said:
I don’t have the link right now, but a friend sent me the Live ATC clip where he says he lost the left side AI, and that the autopilot disconnected and he was flying off the right side instruments.
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Geosync said:
Well if you’re a pro pilot with 10k plus hours, that’s one thing. But the single pilot business owner for whom flying is ancillary to the business is the real problem.
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Lots of assumptions here. This guy was a pilot with many hours of flight. He trained pilots on various aircrafts. He was also no stranger to flying in adverse weather. He was not a random business owner. He owned a flight school for several years and was very hands-on. Absolutely NO ONE expected this to happen.
 
Lfam said:
Lots of assumptions here. This guy was a pilot with many hours of flight. He trained pilots on various aircrafts. He was also no stranger to flying in adverse weather. He was not a random business owner. He owned a flight school for several years and was very hands-on. Absolutely NO ONE expected this to happen.
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Correct.
 
Larry Sturm said:
My company carries 100 million in liability insurance...
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That's nuthin'. My Citation II had $500 mil liability and only a couple underwriters could cover it. They had a lot of strings, too. Two pilots, factory training for both every year, etc. That was 20 years ago.
 
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Lfam said:
Lots of assumptions here. This guy was a pilot with many hours of flight. He trained pilots on various aircrafts. He was also no stranger to flying in adverse weather. He was not a random business owner. He owned a flight school for several years and was very hands-on. Absolutely NO ONE expected this to happen.
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Just like no one expected any of those other highly skilled pilots to crash recently. This wasn't a pretend pilot trying to impress his friends with his skills. This was a real pilot who obviously found himself upstream without a paddle. All of the pilots who have flown with him are shocked at this outcome.
 
Bell206 said:
I seem to recall all Citations had standby attitude indicators. Or am I thinking of a different instrument?
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If a Citation still has the air driven attitude indicator on the right side it does not need a backup AI on the left side. If the airplane has an electric AI on the right side there will be a backup AI on the pilots side.
 
Plano Pilot said:
it does not need a backup AI on the left side.
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It was my recollection certain IFR Part 25 aircraft of so many seats needed a 3rd AI with its own power supply as part of certification. I believe someone above confirmed that.
 
Bell206 said:
It was my recollection certain IFR Part 25 aircraft of so many seats needed a 3rd AI with its own power supply as part of certification. I believe someone above confirmed that.
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I believe what is needed is 2 AI's powered by separate sources. In the old Citations one is powered by an inverter and the other one is powered by bleed air off the engines. Newer Citations, like our Ultra, has both primary AI's powered by inverters. Our 3rd AI powered by a separate backup battery.

I have flown older Citations that have an air powered right hand AI without the third AI.

I found this picture on the internet, no 3rd AI.

citation_i_cockpit.jpg
 
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Citations of all vintage are dropping out of the air under similar circumstances, a high dive after takeoff. There has to be more than a half dozen in the last few years. I hope the FAA is awake and on the case.
 
dtuuri said:
Citations of all vintage are dropping out of the air under similar circumstances, a high dive after takeoff. There has to be more than a half dozen in the last few years. I hope the FAA is awake and on the case.
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Never flown a Citation so I gotta ask, why?

AP failure? Why not hand fly?
 
What makes this plane such a handful to hand fly in IMC? Is it less stable? What makes flying partial panel such a challenge?

I must say, it's worrisome to think that a few minutes of handflying a partial panel plane like this in IMC is such a handful, and apparently, potentially a death sentence. Do "pitch and power" concepts no longer apply? During the Air France A330 accident someone on another board posted pitch and power settings from a manual.. I would think whether as small as a C172, to a Citation, to a larger jet, would still have some natural stability built in and concepts like pitch and power, etc., would apply
 
Jamie Kirk said:
Never flown a Citation so I gotta ask, why?

AP failure? Why not hand fly?
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This type of accident seems remarkably similar to one where a CJ ditched in the ocean due to a bad design in the pitch trim/AP system which caused a runaway situation. There was a CJ4 that crashed here at Cleveland and several since then that have caught my passing attention. After the Citations first came out, many years went by with no crashes at all. This is a new phenomenon.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
Nice. Your attitude won’t last here very long. How about you play nice and we can learn from you?

As far as insurance goes, unless the aviation media is wrong, there have been articles and news video about the incoming 2020 increases (10-100% reportedly).
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My insurance carrier already sent a notice of non-renewal, talk with my broker and they are concerned about the owner-flown turbine market in general. Mine renews in April, so it's time for them to shop it.
 
Larry Sturm said:
Sorry you feel that way. I am just stating the facts as a Single Pilot Operator. Not someone reading about things and making comments about things that they do not know first hand.
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I own and fly a 425 Conquest. I have around 1700TT and 700 turbine. Just completed my fifth renewal which was, by far, the most difficult- including the initial application which I moved up from a 310 with zero turbine. It took a small battle to keep my increase to only 36%.



p.s. quit being a jack wagon. It isn’t appreciated around here.
 
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