Cirrus vs. Other for Training

[PaulS]

In what way does Cirrus mask poor technique better? I do not know anyone who has ever stated that before so I am curious.

Tim

The yaw damper will give you lazy feet, but that's not an issue in the 20. My only observation is that instructors seem a little more uptight in a 20 or 22 than a 172 or cherokee type aircraft and will not let bad situations develop as far. Also I've noticed that recovering at stall warning rather than nose drop for some instructors. I've only had the wing drop once on a 22, it was startling, but opposite rudder plus recovery stopped it instantly. They are pretty docile aircraft but definitely can get you in trouble if you screw up a go around or touch and go. Maybe he means instructors are reluctant to let these things happen?

 

[Martin Pauly]

In what way does Cirrus mask poor technique better? I do not know anyone who has ever stated that before so I am curious.

Hi Tim,

I have two examples from my observations in flight training:

1. Rudder use: Taildragger pilots will argue that pilots learning in a 172 or Cherokee won't learn proper application of rudder, and that is true. The Cirrus seems even more forgiving of lack of rudder input - to the point where I find it impossible to demonstrate adverse yaw in a Cirrus.
2. Use of control surfaces when taxiing: A 172 will get bounced around during taxi on a windy day, reminding the pilot to apply proper aileron and elevator input for taxi. Now, the Cirrus has its own challenges when taxiing in a strong crosswind (due to the free castering nose wheel), but I don't see pilots "growing up" in the Cirrus developing the habit of always applying aileron and elevator for the surface wind.

Regards,
Martin

 

[tspear]

@Martin Pauly

Interesting observations. I actually never bother with yoke position when taxing. I have maybe ten hours with high wing planes, I generally do not like them. But none of the low wing planes I have flow have when I asked the owner or CFI about it, they all stated the never bother. So I think this is more a low wing tricycle gear issue than specific to Cirrus.

In terms of rudder, with Cirrus the climb rate takes huge hit when the rudder does not keep it coordinated. So instead of the traditional adverse yaw, to demonstrate rudder control you want to focus on steep climbs and watch the change in VSI and also use of the rudder in steep bank turns.
Cirrus has the aileron horns which actually help prevent a lot of the adverse yaw problems (assuming I understand what the engineers explained).

Tim

 

[FastEddieB]

Interesting observations. I actually never bother with yoke position when taxing.

Just looked in my pdf SR22 POH, planning to copy and paste the diagram showing correct flight control positioning when taxiing a Cirrus. But I sure don’t see one. So apparently Cirrus doesn’t feel it’s important. And admittedly, one could probably taxi hand’s off in a Cirrus for an entire flying career and never have a problem.

Still, I’d recommend correctly positioning the controls while taxiing. It can’t hurt, and somewhere, some time just the right gust of wind could damage a Cirrus that would have been undamaged if the controls had been properly positioned. It’s also just a good habit to have across nearly all GA aircraft we’re likely to encounter.

 

[Tantalum]

C-172 wing
-14 lbs/SqFt loading
-174 SqFt
-2,500 lbs-ish
-several feet off the ground.. 5.5?

SR22 wing
-24 lbs/SqFt loading
-145 SqFt
-3,600 lbs
-maybe 24 inches off the ground max


...you'd need quite an impressive gust to get under a wing and actually tip a Cirrus. Outside of both machines being operated by one piston engine and capable of flight they're not at all comparable.

 

[Martin Pauly]

Still, I’d recommend correctly positioning the controls while taxiing. It can’t hurt, and somewhere, some time just the right gust of wind could damage a Cirrus that would have been undamaged if the controls had been properly positioned. It’s also just a good habit to have across nearly all GA aircraft we’re likely to encounter.

My point exactly. There may come a day when the crosswind is just strong enough that the adverse yaw from the deflected aileron while on the take-off roll or on rollout after landing makes the difference between maintaining control or not.

- Martin

 

[Martin Pauly]

...you'd need quite an impressive gust to get under a wing and actually tip a Cirrus.

Yes, but it's not just about tipping - it's also about directional control. Deflecting an aileron down creates induced drag, and with the very long arm the wing provides, that drag helps keep directional control. "Stick to the ditch" is what taildragger pilots learn, out of necessity, but it helps in the Cirrus, too.

- Martin

 

[PaulS]

I use aileron on crosswind take off roll and after landing on the 22 in any crosswind over a few knots. My personal limit is about 20 knots crosswind, I would say above 10 it becomes important.

I have been lazy on taxiing, but got a chance to try it out today, about 14 knot quartering tail winds. Not using any input works, but using input results in less rudder jockeying while taxiing.

 

[Rockymountain]

One other thing you don’t learn well in a Cirrus. The flight controls in most planes talk to you. Getting close to a stall, there is very little resistance to movements in yoke and aileron. You will feel the stall coming before you stall. The spring cartridges in the Cirrus make the plane feel like it is doing 60 knots when you are sitting still on the ground. One thing that I think contributes to the many stall spin accidents in that aircraft. Not that any aircraft is immune. As an example, fly a DA40 right up to a stall and you can move that stick around like a butter churn and there is almost no resistance, and the plane really doesn’t move much. Control becomes through the rudders. Nice thing about the spring cartridges, no need for gust locks.

 

[PaulS]

One other thing you don’t learn well in a Cirrus. The flight controls in most planes talk to you. Getting close to a stall, there is very little resistance to movements in yoke and aileron. You will feel the stall coming before you stall. The spring cartridges in the Cirrus make the plane feel like it is doing 60 knots when you are sitting still on the ground. One thing that I think contributes to the many stall spin accidents in that aircraft. Not that any aircraft is immune. As an example, fly a DA40 right up to a stall and you can move that stick around like a butter churn and there is almost no resistance, and the plane really doesn’t move much. Control becomes through the rudders. Nice thing about the spring cartridges, no need for gust locks.

I just did a stall series and slow flight in a 22 g6, you can definitely feel the ailerons lose effectiveness near stall. But, they still are pretty effective.

 

[Rockymountain]

I just did a stall series and slow flight in a 22 g6, you can definitely feel the ailerons lose effectiveness near stall. But, they still are pretty effective.

Yeah, you can feel it, especially once used to it, just significantly less than your typical trainers, so was specific to the original topic. Sure you know it, but beware of ailerons close to stall. Adverse yaw and all.

 

[rosssr20]

I did my PPL and IR in an SR22 and did just fine. It’s expensive. But my plan was to go turbine so it’s all relative…

 

[PaulS]

Yeah, you can feel it, especially once used to it, just significantly less than your typical trainers, so was specific to the original topic. Sure you know it, but beware of ailerons close to stall. Adverse yaw and all.

Actually with the cuffed wing the ailerons are still effective even in stall. I was floored when I first read the Cirrus POH and it said to use coordinated ailerons and rudder to correct a dropped wing. The skipper I trained in, it was aileron neutral and step on the opposite rudder, which works well on the 22. It just doesn't feel right for me using the ailerons in a stall. The key of course is light touch on the aileron, rudder on the other hand.....

 

[tspear]

@Martin Pauly

I never said Cirrus does not talk about controls on the runway. It was specifically about taxi time. Also, Cirrus has distinct advantages to deal with crosswinds that many other planes do not. On landing, it is in the POH to actually raise the flaps. This dumps lift and puts weight on the wheels.

@Rockymountain

The problem is too many pilots depend on the feel with their hands. With Cirrus you actually have to listen to all your senses. Your but, your eyes, ears.... I have flown with a number of pilots, only those trained to listen just to their hands ever have problems with the Cirrus yoke. I think those pilots would also have trouble with any plane that speaks with other senses.

Tim

 

[FastEddieB]

Also, Cirrus has distinct advantages to deal with crosswinds that many other planes do not. On landing, it is in the POH to actually raise the flaps. This dumps lift and puts weight on the wheels.

I was certified as a CSIP by Cirrus, albeit a long time ago. Raising the flaps on rollout was never part of a normal landing. Raising the flaps is on the After Landing checklist, to be accomplished when clear of the runway and stopped. I do see raising the flaps after dropping the nose in the procedures for a Short Field landing where maximum braking is required, but for most of us that’s a fairly uncommon occurrence.

The FAA does not want to see lots of extraneous action during the landing roll:

After the airplane is on the ground, back-elevator pressure is gradually relaxed to place weight on the nose wheel to aid in better steering. If available runway permits, the speed of the airplane is allowed to dissipate in a normal manner. Once the airplane has slowed sufficiently and has turned on to the taxiway and stopped, retract the flaps and perform the after-landing checklist.

From the Airplane Flying Handbook.

It’s really hard for many pilots to not futz with things in the cockpit after landing. But pretty much everything can wait until clear of the runway and stopped.

 

[red4golf]

@red4golf @Albany Tom

Do NOT confuse the MFD with the PFD. The majority of Cirrus has both; and pretty much any trainer you fly now has an Nav/COM and engine display which are pretty much an MFD. The vast majority of your statements about systems management deal with the Nav/COM, Transpoonder, Maps... all functionality in the MFD. It has nothing to do with the six pack or PFD display.

What you are arguing for is not six pack vs PFD; you are really stating everyone needs to fly a J3 Cub first and work their way up.

Tim

I'm not. I'm talking about people that understand how to use analogue resources and those that don't. I don't say any of this because I think modern tools are the devil but I do think that many people only know how to follow a line on a GPS.

 

[tspear]

@red4golf

My kids have no clue how to read a lot of "analog" data sets. Of my three kids and my wife's two kids, only one can read an analog watch without numbers or marks on it. And that is because he likes old watches.
I had fun a few months ago watching my youngest try and use a paper map to provide navigation (she is 18) when we visited an area where our carrier does not have coverage. No clue, give her a phone and she can zoom in, find land marks, orient it...

Tim

 

[red4golf]

@red4golf

My kids have no clue how to read a lot of "analog" data sets. Of my three kids and my wife's two kids, only one can read an analog watch without numbers or marks on it. And that is because he likes old watches.
I had fun a few months ago watching my youngest try and use a paper map to provide navigation (she is 18) when we visited an area where our carrier does not have coverage. No clue, give her a phone and she can zoom in, find land marks, orient it...

Tim

That is unfortunate. Can they drive a stick shift? Change a tire? Telling me they can't read an analog watch kind of proves my point...

My 9 year old can do that but he can also align a VOR, change brake pads and do basic coding in VB. He can also read a map and give you his location in MGRS but now I'm simply bragging..

 

[tspear]

That is unfortunate. Can they drive a stick shift? Change a tire? Telling me they can't read an analog watch kind of proves my point...

My 9 year old can do that but he can also align a VOR, change brake pads and do basic coding in VB. He can also read a map and give you his location in MGRS but now I'm simply bragging..

My oldest two can drive stick. Youngest cannot, since she just turned 18 and I no longer have a stick shift. Neither step son can drive stick.
All can change tires, I teach them that.

However, considering how technology has changed, reading an analog clock is not a skill they need or shall ever need. Same with a paper map; they all can read maps on their phones which have been downloaded. We often go locations without cell service.
The world has changed, and some skills no longer apply.

Tim

 

[red4golf]

My oldest two can drive stick. Youngest cannot, since she just turned 18 and I no longer have a stick shift. Neither step son can drive stick.
All can change tires, I teach them that.

However, considering how technology has changed, reading an analog clock is not a skill they need or shall ever need. Same with a paper map; they all can read maps on their phones which have been downloaded. We often go locations without cell service.
The world has changed, and some skills no longer apply.

Tim

I'm glad they can change tires because so many farm that out to AAA or some other entity because they simply don't know how. Now that we have cell phones I can understand the argument that they can always call for help. My experience is that when I've needed my phone the most, there was no service.

I get that the world has changed. My dad was a farmer during the depression and still used a horse to plow the fields at times. I've never even tried that. When it comes to things like digital devices, aviation GPS or full glass panels, I prefer to have a backup. While many of the tools we have used forever will become obsolete and disappear, I believe that knowing how to use them while they still exist adds a layer of safety and/or functionality.

Could just be my experiences causing me to not fully trust the latest gizmo even though I may try to be first in line to buy it. Even my car's GPS forgets where we are from time to time..

 

[Skinnybird]

Definitely the Otter.

Or even a Beaver.

 

[Albany Tom]

Are we talking airplanes or field craft? My grandfather was a trapper, among other things. Passed away before I had the chance to spend much time with him.

 

[snglecoil]

Could just be my experiences causing me to not fully trust the latest gizmo

I’m with you especially when it comes to aviation. But my experience over the past several years is different. The old vacuum/gyro instruments (which is technology now what 100 years old?) have failed me more frequently and when I needed it the most. An AI going south in IMC is as insidious and confusing as the books warn. Thankfully the HI failed in a much more dramatic fashion spinning like a top. I was equally lucky to lose a vacuum pump in VMC and the suction gauge immediately told me the story there.

I’ve had minor issues with electronic instruments too. But at least they are really good at alerting you to the fact that there is an issue.

As far as navigation goes. There is nothing in a glass panel that prevents you from good ol’ pilotage and dead reckoning. It is still taught and on the check ride. It just takes discipline after the checkride to commit to keeping that skill set sharp. As I give flight reviews, it is definitely a neglected skill.