Cirrus vs. Other for Training

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danuary

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danuary
Hi everyone,

I've read a couple of old threads w/r/t training on Cirrus vs. other "typical" aircraft - Cessnas/Pipers/etc. Rather than resurrect an old thread, the system suggested I start a new one.

I've been thinking about flight training for quite some years, and I want to move forward in doing so. I'm considering whether to start on Cirrus vs. other for exactly one reason, and one reason only: CAPS.

My cousin and his wife perished a few years ago in his single-engine aircraft. Not gonna lie, it's a factor weighing heavily on me in deciding whether to pursue training.

It's not that I think I'd take greater risks in a Cirrus because CAPS. It's that there is an added safety factor when I am "young" in my training. As I learn and build hours, I would imagine that I'd be more comfortable transitioning to other aircraft when I've had some experience.

I've read the considerations in terms of cost, six pack vs. glass, speed, and so forth. The other threads haven't discussed CAPS in any great detail. I'm curious if others have considered this in deciding to train on Cirrus SR2x vs. other more traditional choices.

I appreciate the perspective.
 
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Nothing wrong with that. It sounds like it's going to make the difference between whether or not you feel comfortable with flying, so I say that's worth something.

My family is growing and I'm getting to the point that I think I'll want to start flying something with a BRS.

If cost is a factor, looks at some of the light sport aircraft that have the chute as well.
 
if u gots the cash, go for it. you will be doing some stuff in that plane that you'll never do in almost any other typical GA planes, like touch the roof and say 'caps available', which is just one of the dumbest things I've seen in a long time. but otherwise, since everything will be new to you anyways, you may just have a few additional new things in the cirrus to learn that you wouldn't normally have in other planes.
 
How did your cousin and his wife crash? Could be BRS would not have had any impact on the outcome. It's not a magic wand, just a tool that can provide an additional option in certain circumstances.

Does anyone even offer PP training in Cirri? The insurance cost alone makes my head spin.
 
I fly Cirrus, and I love it. I trained in small trainers for my ppl (before there were Cirrus), and I trained in Cirrus (for my IR). I would train in a trainer, like a 172 or a Warrior for my PPL if I were starting again. The reason is that my sense is that instructors are more on edge in a Cirrus, there are more ways to kill them and if you get into an inadvertent spin the recovery Cirrus requires totals the airplane.

Both the 20 and 22 operate at higher airspeed than trainers, specifically in the pattern and final to landing. Both the 22 and the Lycoming 20s require high performance endorsements, that extra horsepower can cause issues for people learning to fly.

All that said, there are a lot of people who have done their primary training in Cirrus SR 22s and 22Ts and seem to be great pilots. I also know a few pilots who have abandoned flying after trying to get their PPl in a Cirrus. That may or may not be due to the airplane, but a little trainer certainly is more docile, requires less attention to control and is more forgiving of newby type learning curves. But if you can afford it, then it is certainly an option.
 
Ed Haywood said:
How did your cousin and his wife crash? Could be BRS would not have had any impact on the outcome. It's not a magic wand, just a tool that can provide an additional option in certain circumstances.

Does anyone even offer PP training in Cirri? The insurance cost alone makes my head spin.
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I've elected to not post the details of the accident for privacy considerations; the cause of the accident was not determined but was in IMC and likely either pilot error (spatial disorientation), or something medical. CAPS isn't magic, just one more tool in the toolbox.

There are places near where I live that offer PPI on Cirrus.
 
CAPS alone is rather limited in its ability to offer MORE. That may be offset by the fact Cirrus are much more high performance adding it’s own risk.

So the question becomes, where does your risk aversion lie? It’s not an easy question to answer. But considering it from that perspective may help you to decide.

Sorry so vague... hope this helps!
 
So if someone learns in a Cirrus, do they still practice engine outs and emergency landings or go they just simulate pulling the chute?

:happydance:
 
PaulS said:
I fly Cirrus, and I love it. I trained in small trainers for my ppl (before there were Cirrus), and I trained in Cirrus (for my IR). I would train in a trainer, like a 172 or a Warrior for my PPL if I were starting again. The reason is that my sense is that instructors are more on edge in a Cirrus, there are more ways to kill them and if you get into an inadvertent spin the recovery Cirrus requires totals the airplane.

Both the 20 and 22 operate at higher airspeed than trainers, specifically in the pattern and final to landing. Both the 22 and the Lycoming 20s require high performance endorsements, that extra horsepower can cause issues for people learning to fly.

All that said, there are a lot of people who have done their primary training in Cirrus SR 22s and 22Ts and seem to be great pilots. I also know a few pilots who have abandoned flying after trying to get their PPl in a Cirrus. That may or may not be due to the airplane, but a little trainer certainly is more docile, requires less attention to control and is more forgiving of newby type learning curves. But if you can afford it, then it is certainly an option.
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This is great advice, OP. Although the Cirrus has the chute, there are downsides to using it for primary training. I stand by my recommendation to look at a light sport with a BRS for primary. Arguably a 172 with a BRS installed would be the safest option of all, but you'd be hard pressed to find one to rent.
 
If you plan to fly a Cirrus, train in a Cirrus. Otherwise, flight training is supposedly one of the safest type of GA flying.
 
Training in a Cirrus will cost more. If you want to own one, then training in it will help get hours. I don't know if it would help enough to offset the higher cost though.

I'd suggest PPL training in a 172 or other trainer. Then switch to a SR22 for instrument training. If you really want to travel you will want an instrument rating. You'll knock out the Cirrus Transition training and build hours in a SR22.

I own a share in a SR22 and have just short of 700 hours in them. Great traveling planes, but I would burn the dollars to do the initial training in one.



Wayne
 
wayne said:
Training in a Cirrus will cost more. If you want to own one, then training in it will help get hours. I don't know if it would help enough to offset the higher cost though.

I'd suggest PPL training in a 172 or other trainer. Then switch to a SR22 for instrument training. If you really want to travel you will want an instrument rating. You'll knock out the Cirrus Transition training and build hours in a SR22.

I own a share in a SR22 and have just short of 700 hours in them. Great traveling planes, but I would burn the dollars to do the initial training in one.



Wayne
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I did my instrument training in a 20, it is pretty much identical to fly instruments, except for the power settings. The transition to the 22 took about an hour (flight time) after I got my rating.

A wise instructor told me that if I wanted to fly the 22 I should get my instrument rating. It's fast enough to bring you through different types of weather in one flight. I've always thought that was good advice.
 
Training in a 20 is more learner friendly than a 22 not as much energy or prop forces to manage.
 
Facts. Safer is subjective; if it makes you feel better to train and fly a Cirrus, then do it. Things to consider:

1. Even the SR-20 is a more complicated plane than most other trainers. Not necessarily harder to fly, but more to learn.

2. Cirrus CapEx and OpEx is higher than the average trainer, so it will cost more.

3. Most flight schools offering a Cirrus for PPL will have a standard syllabus to follow. This syllabus is the bare minimum and will likely require frequent (3+ flights/week) to progress within the allotted hours.

4. No matter what platform you choose, approaching flying from a professional perspective with an eye towards your acceptable level of risk will make you a safer pilot.
 
danuary said:
It's not that I think I'd take greater risks in a Cirrus because CAPS. It's that there is an added safety factor when I am "young" in my training. As I learn and build hours, I would imagine that I'd be more comfortable transitioning to other aircraft when I've had some experience.
Click to expand...

While you are training you will be flying with an instructor, CFI (Certified Flight Instructor), except when flying solo. Your instructor will have more experience and should be able to deal with issues as well as they can be dealt with if something occurs.
 
Thanks everyone. I'm still thinking it over. Having slept on it, I'm leaning the other way at least for the early stuff that is mostly with an instructor. Cost isn't the issue; More "generic" platform that's easier to learn, I suspect it'll be easier to transition to other things in the future. And I do believe flying with an instructor is probably the safest time you're in a single engine aircraft. Not sure how I'll feel about soloing that way, but one thing at a time. I need to get past the anxiety.
 
danuary said:
….And I do believe flying with an instructor is probably the safest time you're in a single engine aircraft….
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Nothing magical a CFI brings to the table. If the engine is going to quit, it’s going to quit. If the CFI can pitch to best glide and find a suitable place to crash, so can you…all the skills will be there before the CFI allows you to solo.

Your decision making and risk tolerance are the two things that will most likely impact safety. FrEx, I decided to cancel last night’s flight yesterday afternoon based on how the actual weather was changing vs the forecast. Night + IMC with fog forecast is beyond my risk acceptance criteria for what’s essentially an optional flight.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Other than experience, judgement, knowledge, and skill ... nope, nothing.
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And how does those things contribute to the engine deciding to not come from together once the decision to fly has been made?
 
snglecoil said:
It doesn’t, but there is a whole lot that happens between the engine giving up and the plane touching down that experience influences.
Click to expand...

I don’t disagree experience can influence the outcome. There’s enough instances of CFIs being onboard and *not* contributing to (or preventing) a non-fatal outcome that I’m convinced there is nothing magical about the CFI simply being onboard is a panacea.
 
danuary said:
Thanks everyone. I'm still thinking it over. Having slept on it, I'm leaning the other way at least for the early stuff that is mostly with an instructor. Cost isn't the issue; More "generic" platform that's easier to learn, I suspect it'll be easier to transition to other things in the future. And I do believe flying with an instructor is probably the safest time you're in a single engine aircraft. Not sure how I'll feel about soloing that way, but one thing at a time. I need to get past the anxiety.
Click to expand...

Something else that might ease your mind is that in training, you are not going to be flying in IMC, so spatial disorientation isn't likely to happen. As far as anxiety levels, there are ways to help alleviate that. An idea might be to express your concerns and reasons for them to your CFI, and ask for more instruction before solo so that you feel more comfortable and confident that you could land the plane should the engine fail while solo.
 
SkyChaser said:
As far as anxiety levels, there are ways to help alleviate that. An idea might be to express your concerns and reasons for them to your CFI, and ask for more instruction before solo so that you feel more comfortable and confident that you could land the plane should the engine fail while solo.
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This is a great point, and one I should have thought of myself. I’ve gone through medical stuff which taught me the importance of advocating for oneself, and asking questions in the level of detail that you need to be satisfied with the answer (its clarity, its level of detail). This is a thing that is no different.
 
Learning to fly in a Cirrus is definitely doable. I took over a student who owned his own Cirrus and finished up his Private, and later his Instrument.

That said, I think there's a lot to be said for learning the basic stick and rudder skills in a simpler plane. Even if money is no object, I feel there's benefit to having fewer distractions when learning the basics.
 
Can't add to anything that hasn't been said. Doable, of course. Would I? Nah. And I learned in a PA32. If I was to do it again I would have started simpler and less horsepower read cheaper and slower. Slower is good when learning.
 
danuary said:
This is a great point, and one I should have thought of myself. I’ve gone through medical stuff which taught me the importance of advocating for oneself, and asking questions in the level of detail that you need to be satisfied with the answer (its clarity, its level of detail). This is a thing that is no different.
Click to expand...
Since you brought up medical stuff...make sure a medical won't be an issue. Lot's of people overlook that. Get a consult with an ame since it sounds like you've had medical issues....but don't start any paperwork. Just a consult.
 
Wow, how to make this more complicated than it needs to be. I got my PPL and IR in a SR20 G2.
If the chute makes you more comfortable, then it is extremely likely you will learn more and do better in a plane which has one. That means Cirrus, some of the LSA's with BRS, or a C182 with the BRS STC.
People who state Cirrus is complicated are comparing a modern light aircraft to the J3 cub they recall.
In fact most Cirrus are less complicated than most C172, especially those which have been retrofitted with modern avionics. If you use an older C172 without a flight deck, it is a mismash of whatever devices the owner liked; rarely a cohesive view. If a newer C172 with a G1000, that is the same platform as the majority of Cirrus. So again, at worst Cirrus and C172 are equally complicated.
A C172 and SR20/SR22 both only have two levers for the engine. Cirrus has three flap positions (up, half and full), C172 has a range or multiple stops (varies by model and options).....

So, unless you want to train on a plane which is 60 years old, and might have only a single functional radio, modern GA training planes are all pretty much all equal in complexity (there are obvious exceptions, for example if you decide to train on the Bonanza).

Where the differences come into play is how you feel emotionally when flying, and also money (and how that may make you feel also).
Pretty much everything else is just noise.

The only logical items I would say to consider:
1. If you plan to fly a Cirrus, because you want the "Cirrus lifestyle" (e.g. you use the plane to go places not just circle the airport). You are better off training in a Cirrus, to make everything more instinctive.
2. An SR20 teaches better energy management since it has less power than an SR22. An SR22 teaches better rudder control because it has so much more power. Both planes handle about the same, and use nay of the same pattern speeds. The takeoff and related speeds are where the power comes into play.
3. Go get a couple demo flights; and see how you feel.

Tim
 
HI,

Just curious, did you go with the Cirrus program? I’m looking at the same thing just a little behind you in the process. Thanks.

danuary said:
Hi everyone,

I've read a couple of old threads w/r/t training on Cirrus vs. other "typical" aircraft - Cessnas/Pipers/etc. Rather than resurrect an old thread, the system suggested I start a new one.

I've been thinking about flight training for quite some years, and I want to move forward in doing so. I'm considering whether to start on Cirrus vs. other for exactly one reason, and one reason only: CAPS.

My cousin and his wife perished a few years ago in his single-engine aircraft. Not gonna lie, it's a factor weighing heavily on me in deciding whether to pursue training.

It's not that I think I'd take greater risks in a Cirrus because CAPS. It's that there is an added safety factor when I am "young" in my training. As I learn and build hours, I would imagine that I'd be more comfortable transitioning to other aircraft when I've had some experience.

I've read the considerations in terms of cost, six pack vs. glass, speed, and so forth. The other threads haven't discussed CAPS in any great detail. I'm curious if others have considered this in deciding to train on Cirrus SR2x vs. other more traditional choices.

I appreciate the perspective.
Click to expand...
 
I’m curious - $300/hr for a 2018/2019 SR22 Hobbs-wet.

Sound about right? Truth is, nothing similar anywhere nearby (really nothing more than 160 or 180 hp trainers and an Arrow).

Other than about 30 hrs in a sort of tired 182 about 20 years ago, I’ve only ever rented Warriors and Skyhawks so I have no frame of reference.
 
Ya. It does. Hardly an expert, but I rent 172s wet for 150. I’ve seen 200, frequently. I do some shopping around to make sure I’m competitive.

sounds about right compared to what Cirrus rents them for training, at one of their training hubs.
 
Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) said:
I’m curious - $300/hr for a 2018/2019 SR22 Hobbs-wet.

Sound about right? Truth is, nothing similar anywhere nearby (really nothing more than 160 or 180 hp trainers and an Arrow).

Other than about 30 hrs in a sort of tired 182 about 20 years ago, I’ve only ever rented Warriors and Skyhawks so I have no frame of reference.
Click to expand...

That's cheap for a 2018/2019 SR22. In Atlanta there is a place that rents newer Cirrus and a 2018/2019 run $650/hr and higher. :eek: :eek: :eek:

I fly a Cirrus, but at that price point I'd want to be flying a pressurized light twin.
 
@wayne wow!!!

I wonder how long it would take a 105 knot person to transition to an SR22 and whether the IR is required . . . And whether I could stay proficient.

Hmmmm
 
Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) said:
I wonder how long it would take a 105 knot person to transition to an SR22 and whether the IR is required . . . And whether I could stay proficient.

Hmmmm
Click to expand...

Dunno about the IR, but I went directly from a Tomahawk to an RV at ~350 hours and didn’t find it to be a challenge.
 
danuary said:
Hi everyone,

I've read a couple of old threads w/r/t training on Cirrus vs. other "typical" aircraft - Cessnas/Pipers/etc. Rather than resurrect an old thread, the system suggested I start a new one.

I've been thinking about flight training for quite some years, and I want to move forward in doing so. I'm considering whether to start on Cirrus vs. other for exactly one reason, and one reason only: CAPS.

My cousin and his wife perished a few years ago in his single-engine aircraft. Not gonna lie, it's a factor weighing heavily on me in deciding whether to pursue training.

It's not that I think I'd take greater risks in a Cirrus because CAPS. It's that there is an added safety factor when I am "young" in my training. As I learn and build hours, I would imagine that I'd be more comfortable transitioning to other aircraft when I've had some experience.

I've read the considerations in terms of cost, six pack vs. glass, speed, and so forth. The other threads haven't discussed CAPS in any great detail. I'm curious if others have considered this in deciding to train on Cirrus SR2x vs. other more traditional choices.

I appreciate the perspective.
Click to expand...

CAPS didn't help the pilot that killed herself and family going into Houston Hobby a couple years ago. And in a Cirrus you won't learn as much about stalls and spins as another aircraft with a legitimate recovery procedure (one that's not "pull the chute"). Cirruses are not trainers.
 
My Cirrus instructor pulled CAPS shortly after take-off and died in 2021.

You have to realize that flying is a risk!

Also learning in a Cirrus is great, I think. I am a technical person and do not find it anymore difficult to fly. Follow your checklists and procedures and use thy brain.

You will probably spend 3-4x the cost for your training. Cirrus airplanes are more expensive per hour, there are only select instructors and their rate is about 2-3x higher than a normal CFI. Cirrus has extra online programs and ground time to charge you.
 
Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) said:
@wayne wow!!!

I wonder how long it would take a 105 knot person to transition to an SR22 and whether the IR is required . . . And whether I could stay proficient.

Hmmmm
Click to expand...

I don't rent those planes. I own 1/3 of a 2006 SR22, so my costs are much lower than that.

Define "required". ;)

By the FAA, no. By insurance, pretty much. You can get coverage, but it costs more and the limits are lower. Bryan used to fly his father's SR22 before he got an IR, and I've known a couple of others, but generally the insurance companies want Cirrus Transition training, an IR and time-in-type hours.

Sometimes the rental companies cut the insurance costs by buying it where it requires an IR to get that and more hours for the renters. Plus then they can blame the limitation on "the insurance company requires it." ;)

The transition for the speed is most noticed on when to descend for your destination airport. At 105 knots you can often see the airport beforehand. At 170+ knots you need to start well before that. :cool: And pulling back on the power before the initial approach fix is pretty much a necessity.

I thought the side stick would take some time to get used to, but after the first flight I realized I hardly even noticed it.

The biggest change could be the avionics. If the SR22 doesn't have the avionics you are used to that will take some time. Otherwise it's just adjusting to a new plane.

I don't see it any harder to stay proficient in versus any other single engine plane.
 
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