Cirrus SR22, Western NY, Chute Deployed, Two Dead, 6/6

Zeldman said:
Too low of an altitude to fully deploy.??
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Given that witnesses stated that only a few seconds lapsed between chute deployment and impact, probably. Might be that "in between" case where maintaining control through the crash was safer.
 
Zeldman said:
Too low of an altitude to fully deploy.??
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Above article said it 10 minutes after takeoff, so they were flying low. I assume the altitude required is more if in an unusual attitude.
 
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Kenny Phillips said:
Given that witnesses stated that only a few seconds lapsed between chute deployment and impact, probably. Might be that "in between" case where maintaining control through the crash was safer.
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hindsight2020 said:
...we dont talk about fight club.
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Cirrus very clearly defines when you should pull (what altitude specifically) to have a successful result. Properly trained Cirrus pilots know these numbers. If you are below the recommended pull altitudes, you should pick a spot and land. If you are in an uncontrolled/unrecoverable state, you should pull regardless of altitude per Cirrus. The problem is sometimes pilots (I have no idea what happened in this accident, but in general) worry that armchair quarterbacks will question why they pulled and they hesitate.

I've talked to a few pilots who have pulled and survived, I've heard several more speak about their experiences. None have any regret about pulling and are happy to be alive.

If you fly a Cirrus you should seek out and take this training from a Cirrus trained instructor if you have not already done so. Very important.
 
Two things I've seen in other forums not mentioned here yet.

1. The crash happened immediately after takeoff, not 10 minutes later. Steep climb after departure and banked left away from runway.

2. Owner was new to aircraft.
 
Do you really need to pull the chute? If you have a field in sight, land there?
 
Looks like it could have been a departure stall spin. Sad RIP
 
mandm said:
Do you really need to pull the chute? If you have a field in sight, land there?
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frfly172 said:
Looks like it could have been a departure stall spin. Sad RIP
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As frfly172 says, it's looking like a stall/spin at low altitude. My understanding is that the 22 develops an impressive descent rate when spun and this was at low altitude. Seems like a last ditch effort to live. RIP.
 
PaulS said:
As frfly172 says, it's looking like a stall/spin at low altitude. My understanding is that the 22 develops an impressive descent rate when spun and this was at low altitude. Seems like a last ditch effort to live. RIP.
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Hey, even a 150 comes down quickly in a fully-developed spin. No hope of survival down low.
 
PaulS said:
So don’t pull? Negative, use all your tools.
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I didn't say that at all. Even Cirrus says when all appears to be lost, pull the chute. I'm just saying it won't work if you are too low. It just won't. A hard departure stall, at 3-400', you've got about a second to react properly.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
I didn't say that at all. Even Cirrus says when all appears to be lost, pull the chute. I'm just saying it won't work if you are too low. It just won't. A hard departure stall, at 3-400', you've got about a second to react properly.
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Ah, sorry. Low altitude stall spin is worse case scenario. There was a pull near me many years ago now, populated area, pilot realized that he was not going to make the field he had set up for, so he pulled almost 200 feet below the 500 agl Cirrus recommends for that model. Both pilots walked away, no injuries. The difference I think from this accident is he pulled while in controlled flight.
 
Subtracting out the parachute thing, because that doesn't seem likely to be the root cause.

I understand stall/spin on approach more than take off, as long as the engine is working OK. If the article is right about the plane, it was based at Oshawa Airport in CA, which has runways slightly shorter than Jamestown, which are 5300 and 4500. Not short.

Is there anything about a Cirrus that makes it more likely than anything else to stall/spin on climbout?
 
Albany Tom said:
Subtracting out the parachute thing, because that doesn't seem likely to be the root cause.

I understand stall/spin on approach more than take off, as long as the engine is working OK. If the article is right about the plane, it was based at Oshawa Airport in CA, which has runways slightly shorter than Jamestown, which are 5300 and 4500. Not short.

Is there anything about a Cirrus that makes it more likely than anything else to stall/spin on climbout?
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No, but you have to pay attention to airspeed, especially when slow. This airplane may have been experiencing an issue, still waiting for the preliminary from the officials.
 
The non-obvious fatals are always disturbing, especially with passengers. It's just sad no matter how it happens.
 
Albany Tom said:
Is there anything about a Cirrus that makes it more likely than anything else to stall/spin on climbout?
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Wouldn't say it is more likely to stall/spin than others, but runway trim is a possibility.

There is no manual trim in a Cirrus - electric only. You should be able to physically overpower it, but I can see a new owner being surprised by a sudden runaway trim in the climb and losing control of the airplane.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Not sure I can agree with you. Pulling the chute on a Cirrus below the min altitude is virtually a death sentence.
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There have been several successful below min pulls of cirrus. I believe the lowest was around 200 agl. The parachute can’t undo the laws of physics unfortunately though.
 
PaulS said:
The problem is sometimes pilots (I have no idea what happened in this accident, but in general) worry that armchair quarterbacks will question why they pulled and they hesitate.
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The thought and what I said to the pilot I was flying with last week in a plane with a Ballistic shoot was something like this…. Over certain terrain of our flight I could probably land the plane and walk away from it, but no one would question my decision if I pulled the chute, they would definitely question my decision if I didn’t and it was a less than successful landing.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
brcase said:
The thought and what I said to the pilot I was flying with last week in a plane with a Ballistic shoot was something like this…. Over certain terrain of our flight I could probably land the plane and walk away from it, but no one would question my decision if I pulled the chute, they would definitely question my decision if I didn’t and it was a less than successful landing.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
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Exactly! None of us are as good as we think we are. If so, the survival rate for engine failures would be much higher. You can't argue the statistics, if the ballistic chute on a Cirrus is deployed within the envelope, you have a 99.9% chance of survival. The statistics for engine failure and gliding to a safe landing, even if right over the airport, aren't as high.

The only argument I'll ever agree with when it comes to the parachute is pilots intentionally making more hazardous decisions because of the safety net. No need to be hard IMC in ice over the mountains at night in a single engine piston just because you have a parachute.
 
Cirrus pilots out there- is there a gust lock that could get missed?
 
IIRC the pilot was new to the aircraft.

The smoke could well have put him in instant IMC with no horizon.
 
benyflyguy said:
Cirrus pilots out there- is there a gust lock that could get missed?
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No, Cirrus flight controls are spring loaded to keep them neutralized when you aren’t manipulating controls. Eliminates the need for a actual gust lock.
 
Magman said:
IIRC the pilot was new to the aircraft.

The smoke could well have put him in instant IMC with no horizon.
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I kinda wondered about that? If the 'black hole effect' could be a thing if you lose the ability to see down and the horizon. Here, I don't think the visibility was bad enough to lose sight of the ground from pattern altitude, but maybe in western NY it was?
 
When I flew into smoke, the ground was the only thing I could see. But only the ground directly below. Wasn’t of much help.
 
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