For Sale: Partnership Cirrus SR22 Atlanta PDK - partnership

wayne

wayne

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Gone West
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Mar 10, 2007
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2,391
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Atlanta, GA
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Display name:
wayne
We are working on putting together a 3 person co-ownership in a Cirrus SR22. Right now looking at G1 models and trying to keep the initial cost to ~$50k per person to buy it. Preferred airport is KPDK Peachtree Dekalb in Atlanta.

Looking for a third partner.
 
Too bad you're not a little further south. I'd be interested in something like that. As a CSIP I know all too well that Cirrus owners from time to time have to write some pretty big checks. Splitting it up three ways certainly would help the digestion.
 
Yep, divide the capital and fixed costs by three makes it much more manageable. And availability is very high. I'm in my second non-equity partnership and schedule conflicts are rare and both have had open calendars.
 
We found another person, but with zero SR22 time and no IR there was a low limit on the insurance we could get with him. So, we're still looking for another partner or two.
 
Art VanDelay said:
Too bad you're not a little further south. I'd be interested in something like that. As a CSIP I know all too well that Cirrus owners from time to time have to write some pretty big checks. Splitting it up three ways certainly would help the digestion.
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We just had a first annual on a SR22T. $2050 with oil change. The owner of the shop says they do 50 Cirrus annuals a year and says Cirrus is one of the easiest and cheapest planes to maintain. He works on them all from Bonanzas to turboprops to everything Piper and Cessna makes.
 
citizen5000 said:
We just had a first annual on a SR22T. $2050 with oil change. The owner of the shop says they do 50 Cirrus annuals a year and says Cirrus is one of the easiest and cheapest planes to maintain. He works on them all from Bonanzas to turboprops to everything Piper and Cessna makes.
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Ahhhhh yeah - be sure to put something aside to have that chute re-packed too ! What's that like 12k ish ?
 
Art VanDelay said:
Ahhhhh yeah - be sure to put something aside to have that chute re-packed too ! What's that like 12k ish ?
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12k-15k. I believe the newer models (forget when it changed) are cheaper. Cirrus made it easier to change the chute. Basically plan $1,500/year to save up for it.
 
Art VanDelay said:
Too bad you're not a little further south. I'd be interested in something like that. As a CSIP I know all too well that Cirrus owners from time to time have to write some pretty big checks. Splitting it up three ways certainly would help the digestion.
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Or if you were just a little further north.... ;)
 
wayne said:
We are working on putting together a 3 person co-ownership in a Cirrus SR22. Right now looking at G1 models and trying to keep the initial cost to ~$50k per person to buy it. Preferred airport is KPDK Peachtree Dekalb in Atlanta.

Looking for a third partner.
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Hi Wayne...I'm interested in an SR22 partnership. I live near Roswell and I have about 500 hrs in the SR22 through a fractional ownership program. Are you still looking? E mail is the best way to communicate... mine is Steve.touchton@gmail.com
 
Wayne,
I'm starting to look around again. Previous owner C182L and Turbo C210-M for 20 years. I have no Cirrus time but >2000 hrs high performance. +IFR and Multi.
Any interest in 4 way. I live in Stone Mountain.
 
Yep, we have 3 now. Had a couple other guys with some interest, but not quite the right fit for them. Four would work out great.

wayne@ceasehome.com
 
wayne said:
12k-15k. I believe the newer models (forget when it changed) are cheaper. Cirrus made it easier to change the chute. Basically plan $1,500/year to save up for it.
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We had it done. It was $14,500. $1,500/yr is a good target number. Also you have to factor in line cutter maintenance.
 
asgcpa said:
We had it done. It was $14,500. $1,500/yr is a good target number. Also you have to factor in line cutter maintenance.
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Thanks for that. We have $14,200 for both, so we may need to bump them up. Or just recognize we're a little low and will have to kick some more in when those need to be done.
 
wayne said:
Thanks for that. We have $14,200 for both, so we may need to bump them up. Or just recognize we're a little low and will have to kick some more in when those need to be done.
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I have the numbers down pretty well. Been operating the LLC for two years. If you have questions pm me.
 
wayne said:
Thanks for that. We have $14,200 for both, so we may need to bump them up. Or just recognize we're a little low and will have to kick some more in when those need to be done.
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Youre maybe $1,500 low so no biggie.
 
Shifted to looking for a 4th to get the purchase price up to around $200k; $50k per person. We now have three solidly interested people. The $50k/partner is just for the purchase price.

Some details. Looking at a purchase price of ~$200k with 4 partners. That puts it around $65k per partner after purchase, sales tax, 1st year insurance, and other possible start-up things (406 ELT, ADS-B out transponder, ...).

Monthly cost around $450/month.
Dry hourly cost estimated $50/hr

That puts the total monthly/hourly/fuel spend for a partner flying 90 hours per year at ~$200/hr; depending upon fuel costs and no assessment for large maintenance not covered by reserves.

I was in a non-equity partnership (i.e. renting) on a SR22 for 4.5 years and that's in the range we were spending. That owner moved. I'd like to get back into a SR22 partnership again. I'm flying a Baron now and the fuel burn... :eek:
 
Looking for a partner or 2 for 3 max on Cirrus SR22T G5. Price range around 600k. Must have ability to secure financing with all partners. LZU or PDK preferred. Instrument Rated..
 
Blackfin said:
Looking for a partner or 2 for 3 max on Cirrus SR22T G5. Price range around 600k. Must have ability to secure financing with all partners. LZU or PDK preferred. Instrument Rated..
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Howdy Blackfin and welcome to PoA!

A clarification question if you don’t mind. Are you wanting each partner to bring their share of the buy in with them? Or you seek 2 or 3 others that, once the group is formed, the group qualifies for the financing required?
 
Hey AggieMike—
I guess i shouldn’t be typing or flying that late cause I see the confusion in my message :). Looking to purchase a SR22T G5 once the partners are secured. Partners should have the Capacity to put down 20% with good credit to quality for best financing terms.

Prefer 1 partner but will live with 2.

Partner(s) should be instrument rated to get best insurance rates and financing terms.

We will use a LLC to own the plane and the owners of the LLC will be the partners or their holding corporations.
 
Blackfin, do you really need a SR22T G5? The OP has a couple of guys already ready to commit on an earlier model SR22 NA in PDK. Seems like you might be able to partner up with them. The turbo only really gets you extra speed in the altitudes where you need oxygen, really not much of an advantage east of the Rockies.
 
Skepilot, thanks for the suggestion! I've done most of my cirrus flying in a sr22T with the Ascension Program. I've done flights 15-25000, i do enjoy the solid climb rates..I will consider a NA but will want to stay at least with the Perspective system which I believe is offered from the G3 onward.
 
Gotcha. I just know Wayne has been trying to put together a partnership for quite some time now, and it's proving to be difficult to find people who have the qualifications, money, and will to commit. So, I'd hate to see you both trying (and maybe failing) to start up two seperate partnerships when maybe you could join up and get it done!

Regarding the Garmin system, sometimes you can find some G1s that have been refurbished and had their old 6-packs replaced with Garmin, like this: https://www.facebook.com/groups/6699077266/permalink/10154943272612267/ Not quite the same as a G5, but damn near as nice for a fraction of the cost! Anyway, just a thought.
 
Skepilot said:
Gotcha. I just know Wayne has been trying to put together a partnership for quite some time now, and it's proving to be difficult to find people who have the qualifications, money, and will to commit. So, I'd hate to see you both trying (and maybe failing) to start up two seperate partnerships when maybe you could join up and get it done!

Regarding the Garmin system, sometimes you can find some G1s that have been refurbished and had their old 6-packs replaced with Garmin, like this: https://www.facebook.com/groups/6699077266/permalink/10154943272612267/ Not quite the same as a G5, but damn near as nice for a fraction of the cost! Anyway, just a thought.
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I would be interested in how the numbers work for ownership, compared to Aero Atlanta. They have a couple Gen5 & 6 SR22T and a N/A G5. No CAPEX, and the planes are upgraded every year or two. I have well over a 100hrs in the SR22 there, and have to say it's nice to just show up, fly, return and walk away.
 
With 1031 exchange for personal property going away, I wouldn't be surprised if the days of upgrading planes every year or two is over. It used to be that owners would put their planes in an LLC, depreciate it over a couple of years, and once it's fully depreciated do a 1031 exchange for a new plane and take depreciation again. The new tax law takes away 1031 exchanges for personal property, retaining it only for real estate. Now if you sell your plane after depreciating it the IRS will "recapture" that depreciation and tax you on it as income. I bet this puts a big dent in aircraft sales going forward.

In a partnership, you would have much lower hourly expenses, that's for sure. @wayne has a spreadsheet that lays it all out nicely.
 
CMAT said:
I would be interested in how the numbers work for ownership, compared to Aero Atlanta. They have a couple Gen5 & 6 SR22T and a N/A G5. No CAPEX, and the planes are upgraded every year or two. I have well over a 100hrs in the SR22 there, and have to say it's nice to just show up, fly, return and walk away.
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Those are some spiffy looking planes, but $460-505/hr is a bit much for me. Plus, I haven't flown them with Perspective, only Avidyne/GNS-430.

Skepilot said:
With 1031 exchange for personal property going away, I wouldn't be surprised if the days of upgrading planes every year or two is over. It used to be that owners would put their planes in an LLC, depreciate it over a couple of years, and once it's fully depreciated do a 1031 exchange for a new plane and take depreciation again. The new tax law takes away 1031 exchanges for personal property, retaining it only for real estate. Now if you sell your plane after depreciating it the IRS will "recapture" that depreciation and tax you on it as income. I bet this puts a big dent in aircraft sales going forward.

In a partnership, you would have much lower hourly expenses, that's for sure. @wayne has a spreadsheet that lays it all out nicely.
Click to expand...

I was flying a 2002 SR22 and it was running about $220/hr for my costs. That's all-in for 90 hrs/year; monthly fee for fixed costs, hourly fee for mx and fuel. Running numbers for the group I've been trying to put together and it's pretty much the same. Could vary some for insurance and such, but not by a huge amount. Now, if you get a newer, higher priced plane, and it's turbo, it will cost more to insurance and you'll burn more fuel. One big assumption is everyone writes a check up-front for their share of the capital and start-up costs (taxes, 1st year insurance, etc). That way there are no loan costs or loan headaches.

Another way to look the deal I had on that 2002 SR22 was it was $6k/year to have access to a plane with only 3 or 4 total pilots flying it and about $140/hr to fly it. I was a non-equity partner in that deal. Looking to set-up an equity partnership along the same lines.
 
Skepilot said:
With 1031 exchange for personal property going away, I wouldn't be surprised if the days of upgrading planes every year or two is over. It used to be that owners would put their planes in an LLC, depreciate it over a couple of years, and once it's fully depreciated do a 1031 exchange for a new plane and take depreciation again. The new tax law takes away 1031 exchanges for personal property, retaining it only for real estate. Now if you sell your plane after depreciating it the IRS will "recapture" that depreciation and tax you on it as income. I bet this puts a big dent in aircraft sales going forward.
ho are leasing them back to do that.
In a partnership, you would have much lower hourly expenses, that's for sure. @wayne has a spreadsheet that lays it all out nicely.
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I agree with you. I have enjoyed the annual plane upgrades but it might not make sense, going forward, for the owners who are leasing the planes back.
 
wayne said:
Those are some spiffy looking planes, but $460-505/hr is a bit much for me. Plus, I haven't flown them with Perspective, only Avidyne/GNS-430.



I was flying a 2002 SR22 and it was running about $220/hr for my costs. That's all-in for 90 hrs/year; monthly fee for fixed costs, hourly fee for mx and fuel. Running numbers for the group I've been trying to put together and it's pretty much the same. Could vary some for insurance and such, but not by a huge amount. Now, if you get a newer, higher priced plane, and it's turbo, it will cost more to insurance and you'll burn more fuel. One big assumption is everyone writes a check up-front for their share of the capital and start-up costs (taxes, 1st year insurance, etc). That way there are no loan costs or loan headaches.

Another way to look the deal I had on that 2002 SR22 was it was $6k/year to have access to a plane with only 3 or 4 total pilots flying it and about $140/hr to fly it. I was a non-equity partner in that deal. Looking to set-up an equity partnership along the same lines.
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The $505 is stiff but keep in mind there is no CAPEX or large monthly fee, Database updates etc. The planes are washed, fueled to request, pre heated when needed and towed out and put away. I went through the full Cirrus Factory course with the online modules and flying and have 126hrs in type. Previously I was one of two non equity partners in a Diamond DA40 with G1000 and it was much cheaper and with 3 people, we never had a schedule conflict (I prefer the Cirrus). if you have the cost spreadsheet to share I would like to see it. I have a 1st class medical and am commercial SEL/MEL with just over 500hrs total time.
 
my business partner and I own a cirrus and live in south GA. We just stopped with a leaseback group and are contemplating hiring a pilot and sharing with 3-4 other partners. Anyone have any experience with this or thoughts? The plane is a G5 about 2 years old.

Thanks!
 
J Williams said:
my business partner and I own a cirrus and live in south GA. We just stopped with a leaseback group and are contemplating hiring a pilot and sharing with 3-4 other partners. Anyone have any experience with this or thoughts? The plane is a G5 about 2 years old.

Thanks!
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I need a little clarification. Are you contemplating adding a couple of partners and then the partnership hiring a pilot to fly each of you?
If that is your intent and the pilot flies for the the group no issue.
 
Yes, that is my thoughts. We own the plane. Any suggestions on how to structure? I would think we all pay something monthly for hangar, pilot, and reserve for maintenance etc then an hourly rate. Thanks again!
 
Option 1. Do a dry lease with a couple of individuals (they don't have to be pilots). In a dry lease they pay for X amount of time whether they use it or not and they have operational control over their flights. You build into the lease price any cost you and your partner need to cover.
You can suggest/recommend qualified pilots to them but who they choose is up to them, as long as they meet the insurance requirements and minimum requirements you set for a pilot. You and your partner continue to own the asset.
Option 2. Your original thoughts has a major "gotcha" to watch out for. If you provide a pilot and a plane you have to be sure not to stray into part 135 on demand territory where your pilot and plane are flying various people places. In either case you need legal advice (I am not a lawyer) to be sure you don't get into a regulatory issue.
 
citizen5000 said:
We just had a first annual on a SR22T. $2050 with oil change. The owner of the shop says they do 50 Cirrus annuals a year and says Cirrus is one of the easiest and cheapest planes to maintain. He works on them all from Bonanzas to turboprops to everything Piper and Cessna makes.
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what year is your SR22T ?
 
Hello Wayne, did you form the partnership? If not, will you be interested in using my Cirrus SR20 G2 (non equity partnership)
 
Anil Kowatra said:
Hello Wayne, did you form the partnership? If not, will you be interested in using my Cirrus SR20 G2 (non equity partnership)
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I would possibly be interested in that. You have enough posts to PM? Not sure how many you need.
 
Yes, I don't have enough posts to qualify for pm. I don't know if it is ok to post my contact information here. Otherwise my contact information is on my website. It is my last name (Kowatra). Is there any other better/acceptable way to pass on my contact information?
 
Anil, I checked out your website. Are those rates wet or dry? Are there any daily minimums or overnight fees?
 
Hello Mike, These are wet rates and there is no overnight or weekend fee? I expect pilots to fly at least twice a month so that they are proficient. To fly Cirrus, pilot should have at least 500 hours of experience and IFR rating (required for insurance).

I don't want to hi-jack OP's thread. Can you please email me or call me and I will send you more information.
 
Maybe I missed it on the website, where are the planes based?
 
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