Cirrus down MYF (San Diego)

N1120A said:
They don't have a manual wheel. No electric trim means a grounded airplane. They are not unflyable with runaway trim, in either direction,
Click to expand...

Do they have a backup/emergency pitch trim motor? The planes that I have flown, without manual pitch trim, always had a second motor.
 
I don't want to second guess the controller, and she did sound busy. I'll give her the benefit of the doubt that she didn't hear the "EMERGENCY" call, but I would think the response to hearing someone say on frequency that they can't control their trim wouldn't be "aircraft with a trim problem you have a stuck mic..." I would assume, she would at least say "aircraft with a trim problem, do you need any assistance?"
 
readytocopy995 said:
you haven't listened to the tape, so why are you telling me what he says? go listen. you'll hear it.

additionally it all happens quickly and there are a few simultaneous radio transmissions. we can hear the pilot saying he has an emergency, but we have no idea right now what the controller heard. he is also coming up on a plane that was cleared to takeoff, so the controller didn't have much choice.

and finally - the accident pilot was doing 140 knots over the ground halfway down the runway. where exactly was he going to "put it down"?
Click to expand...
At the point the pilot declares an emergency, he can put it down anywhere (parallel taxiway, etc.) Especially if there's a control issue.
Sluggo63 said:
I don't want to second guess the controller, and she did sound busy. I'll give her the benefit of the doubt that she didn't hear the "EMERGENCY" call, but I would think the response to hearing someone say on frequency that they can't control their trim wouldn't be "aircraft with a trim problem you have a stuck mic..." I would assume, she would at least say "aircraft with a trim problem, do you need any assistance?"
Click to expand...
Regardless, if you declare to the controller, you needn't do anything but fly your aircraft.
 
Sluggo63 said:
I don't want to second guess the controller, and she did sound busy. I'll give her the benefit of the doubt that she didn't hear the "EMERGENCY" call, but I would think the response to hearing someone say on frequency that they can't control their trim wouldn't be "aircraft with a trim problem you have a stuck mic..." I would assume, she would at least say "aircraft with a trim problem, do you need any assistance?"
Click to expand...

I don't think she heard the emergency declaration. Pilots have to remember most controllers are not pilots and have no clue about trim, or most other things airplane related. That's why "mayday" is so important and making absolutely sure you are heard is important. Finally if you have an emergency, you don't need permission from the controller to deal with it. And you don't need to obey their instructions if it further endangers you. I think this poor guy was just too over his head. RIP.
 
Plano Pilot said:
Do they have a backup/emergency pitch trim motor?
Click to expand...
No, but the plane is not unflyable if it fails in flight. It is not an aerodynamic trim creating potentially impossible forces to overcome. You are simply moving the centering spring in the "yoke"
 
Sluggo63 said:
I don't want to second guess the controller, and she did sound busy. I'll give her the benefit of the doubt that she didn't hear the "EMERGENCY" call, but I would think the response to hearing someone say on frequency that they can't control their trim wouldn't be "aircraft with a trim problem you have a stuck mic..." I would assume, she would at least say "aircraft with a trim problem, do you need any assistance?"
Click to expand...
I thought that was peculiar as well.. I also thought it was indicative that he was nervous with a death grip on the stick
 
Kenny Phillips said:
At the point the pilot declares an emergency, he can put it down anywhere (parallel taxiway, etc.) Especially if there's a control issue.

Regardless, if you declare to the controller, you needn't do anything but fly your aircraft.
Click to expand...
how are you going to put your airplane down when you're going double the landing speed

there was no possible way to land that airplane on the field at the moment the emergency was "declared" and additionally the accident aircraft never identified themself when they said they have an emergency. honestly, what is the controller supposed to do?
 
Kenny Phillips said:
At the point the pilot declares an emergency, he can put it down anywhere (parallel taxiway, etc.) Especially if there's a control issue.

Regardless, if you declare to the controller, you needn't do anything but fly your aircraft.
Click to expand...

Absolutely correct. I think this is where inexperience might have gotten him. Had he made up his mind to land on that final and ignored the controller order to go around he probably would have survived. Another possibility here is it wasn't a trim issue, but rather a jammed elevator. In any scenario I don't think I see pouring on the coals helping the situation.
 
PaulS said:
inexperience
Click to expand...
Indeed, and why I would be careful automatically blaming the machine about "runaway trim" - while it's not impossible, I think Occam's razor suggests this was pilot induced one way or another, inadvertent AP activation, death grip on yoke squeezing the PTT and driving the trim, etc. If the trim did in fact start spooling under its own volition that's a major issue, not just for Cirrus, but potentially Garmin, which is ultimately the brains behind it. If it were a Garmin issue we'd likely have some other occurrence of this from other GFC 500, GFC 700, etc., equipped planes.


...and, the FOM clearly dictates that the plane is flyable even with a trim at max stops. This is after all NOT aerodynamic trim, you're not ever going to be fighting any aerodynamic forces, you are merely changing the centering spring

A real sad tragedy.
 
Tantalum said:
Indeed, and why I would be careful automatically blaming the machine about "runaway trim" - while it's not impossible, I think Occam's razor suggests this was pilot induced one way or another, inadvertent AP activation, death grip on yoke squeezing the PTT and driving the trim, etc. If the trim did in fact start spooling under its own volition that's a major issue, not just for Cirrus, but potentially Garmin, which is ultimately the brains behind it. If it were a Garmin issue we'd likely have some other occurrence of this from other GFC 500, GFC 700, etc., equipped planes.


...and, the FOM clearly dictates that the plane is flyable even with a trim at max stops. This is after all NOT aerodynamic trim, you're not ever going to be fighting any aerodynamic forces, you are merely changing the centering spring

A real sad tragedy.
Click to expand...
I have to wonder if some of what you are saying here doesn’t validate what some have been questioning about this aircraft being appropriate for primary training. A lot of this is simply not a factor in a 172 or Cherokee.
 
Certainly at least warrants an examination of training procedures at least and a review of trim. Much different than the manual wheel you would get on a 172 or Piper
 
Salty said:
I have to wonder if some of what you are saying here doesn’t validate what some have been questioning about this aircraft being appropriate for primary training. A lot of this is simply not a factor in a 172 or Cherokee.
Click to expand...
It’s a serious thing to say but I believe there will definitely be a review on the instructor side. This is why the peer pressure for an early solo is so frustrating. Some people just aren’t ready at X hours and it’s your judgement call as a CFI and if something like this happens you will have to live with it for the rest of your life.
 
PaulS said:
Absolutely correct. I think this is where inexperience might have gotten him. Had he made up his mind to land on that final and ignored the controller order to go around he probably would have survived. Another possibility here is it wasn't a trim issue, but rather a jammed elevator. In any scenario I don't think I see pouring on the coals helping the situation.
Click to expand...
are you guys seeing other track logs than the one i'm looking at? how are you going to safely land when you're doing 140kts high and past the threshold of the runway at MYF? the "go-around" order was issued extremely late as the aircraft was converging on a plane that was on the runway taking off
 
Kenny Phillips said:
At the point the pilot declares an emergency, he can put it down anywhere (parallel taxiway, etc.) Especially if there's a control issue.

Regardless, if you declare to the controller, you needn't do anything but fly your aircraft.
Click to expand...

If I have an emergency I don't even need to talk to the controller ... I need to aviate!

I'll use the radio if I have time or if I need assistance. But the first priority is to fly the plane all the way through the crash.
 
PaulS said:
I don't think she heard the emergency declaration.
Click to expand...
Agreed. But I think this was a good example of anticipation bias.

MYF tower freq can be a zoo. She was clearly annoyed by what she perceived as a hot mic and that likely contributed to not recognizing the emergency declaration.

I’m not implying that she is some evil negligent person. But there are lessons to be learned in that recording for CFIs, Pilots and Controllers alike
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top