Cirrus and 172 Collide in Wyoming

Kinda sounds like the SR22 was on an instrument approach (visual maybe? But "cleared" for the approach into an uncontrolled field) and the 172 may have been maneuvering (student pilot aboard, practicing).

Musta been one heckuva collision for the Cirrus pilot not to pull the chute. :eek: :(
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Kinda sounds like the SR22 was on an instrument approach (visual maybe? But "cleared" for the approach into an uncontrolled field) and the 172 may have been maneuvering (student pilot aboard, practicing).

Musta been one heckuva collision for the Cirrus pilot not to pull the chute. :eek: :(
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That is what it sounds like.
 
Dave2 said:
And some people womnder why I get VERY unhappy when pilots don't use their radios.
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Well who is to say in this accident who may or may not have been using their radios. I can think of several comm scenarios here, one of which being that the aircraft on approach dial in or forgot to flip to the CTAF. The student pilot in the pattern may have been more likely to be using his radio as he has yet to get into any bad habits with traffic calls.

Or the maybe the student forgot to call on the CTAF, etc.

We just do not know yet.

But I do know that I never expect all the traffic to be using the radio where it is optional. My field has has many ultralights that are NORDO. I make using my eyes a very important part of the approach.
 
smigaldi said:
Well who is to say in this accident who may or may not have been using their radios. I can think of several comm scenarios here, one of which being that the aircraft on approach dial in or forgot to flip to the CTAF. The student pilot in the pattern may have been more likely to be using his radio as he has yet to get into any bad habits with traffic calls.
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Or the SR-22 was using the instrument fixes in his radio calls, and the student hadn't been taught what those were.

But I do know that I never expect all the traffic to be using the radio where it is optional. My field has has many ultralights that are NORDO. I make using my eyes a very important part of the approach.
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Or, as I mentioned in another thread, cropdusters - at least the five or six working out of FRM the past couple of months are all NORDO, and don't fly standard patterns either. Then there's the old ragwing pilots who don't use their handhelds...
 
jmaynard said:
Or the SR-22 was using the instrument fixes in his radio calls, and the student hadn't been taught what those were.
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another good one.


jmaynard said:
Or, as I mentioned in another thread, cropdusters - at least the five or six working out of FRM the past couple of months are all NORDO, and don't fly standard patterns either. Then there's the old ragwing pilots who don't use their handhelds...
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Forgot about them and we even had a helo spraying right off of the departure end of our runway and the agri-helo did not make a single radio call. But it was completely legal. I don't get mad at those guys I jsut make sur eI don't depend on them being on the radio.
 
smigaldi said:
Well who is to say in this accident who may or may not have been using their radios. I can think of several comm scenarios here, one of which being that the aircraft on approach dial in or forgot to flip to the CTAF. The student pilot in the pattern may have been more likely to be using his radio as he has yet to get into any bad habits with traffic calls.

Or the maybe the student forgot to call on the CTAF, etc.

We just do not know yet.

But I do know that I never expect all the traffic to be using the radio where it is optional. My field has has many ultralights that are NORDO. I make using my eyes a very important part of the approach.
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Or maybe the student (with lack of help from his instructor) hadn't developed a sense of distance (like the guy who, while less than 1/2 mile from the threshold, called a 5 mile final, enticing others to turn a normal base.)
 
Rock Springs is a bit of an outpost compared to places in other parts of the country but there is still a fair amount of traffic, anything from small airplanes to jets. I wonder if people just aren't as vigilant there because, after all, it's Wyoming. There couldn't be another airplane within a hundred miles.
 
wsuffa said:
Sad.

And TIS doesn't work out there....
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Maybe it's local conditions but...

Whenever I'm cleared for an approach, I'm told "No traffic observed" or "4 aircraft in the pattern at Rostraver..."

Of course this does not absolve me from looking, but it's hard to look when you're in the clouds. Ceiling may be 1200' and yet there may be other VFR, No Radio traffic.

The closest I've come to a mid-air was at our local field. I was cleared for the GPS but asked for the visual when Pitt Approach informed me there were "Four aircraft observed in the pattern..."

I asked to be vectored south so I could fit into the flow. Once out of the broken layer my head was on a swivel with the radio turned up loud.

Every pilot but one gave crisp, clearly recognizable location calls: "Abeam the numbers, 26..." and "Midfield left downwind, 26..."

But the Arrow driver decided he would use "The river" as his runway. Everything was in relation to "the river."

Well, the Monongahela river is a winding, wide, indeterminate landmark, and just because you're "over the river" doesn't mean I have a clue where you are.

I asked for clarification and finally he said, "Crossing the river now on extended left downwind."

He was actually still about 2 miles from the west bank of the river (the field is east of the river), on a WIDE pattern (3 miles from centerline), descending into TPA.

I saw him above me and to the left. I did an immediate 180 away from the pattern and then followed him in, announcing "Landing number two behind the arrow", since I knew where all the other airplanes were and they knew where I was.

Once I put the airplane away I strolled over to have a chat. I asked him if he saw me.

"No, I never saw you..."

"Did you hear any of my radio calls?"

"Yeah, I heard you. I was in the pattern, so figured you'd work your way in."

I talked to a couple of the otehr pilots in the pattern and they laughed when I mentioned the tail number, " Oh yeah, that's %%%%. He's quite the hazard -- gotta be on your toes when he's up there..."

Yeah, that's a real hoot.
 
As someone mentioned earlier that is a wide open country. I stop there for fuel when I fly east. It sits up on a big plateau and the wind is usually blowing like cazy. Just too bad, I always feel like it gives us all a bad rap when this happens. Bob
 
Jay has an excellent point! Many I'd even dare to say most PP and students who are not IR may not understand what it means or where I am when I say Pottstown Traffic Blue & White Archer Localizer 28 at googl, Pottstown. So I try and make it Pottstown Traffic Blue/White Archer Localizer 28 googl, 5 mi final, pottstown. It can be hard in a target rich enviorment. If its a VFR day Philly APP will tell me multiple targets in the vicinity of Wings before they cut me loose and I'll work my way in to the pattern but If I'm flying an Approach to the runway or mins for training it can be tough. The VFR guy may not know where the heck to look. If its VMC and that busy perhaps flying the full approach is not so wise.

Sometimes as in two recent flights APP didn't cut me loose till I was litterally right on top of the field that can be an issue as well becasue if theoretically that were the case the Cirrus wouldn't have time to make calls on CTAF.

Tragic anyway you look at it.
 
AdamZ said:
J

Sometimes as in two recent flights APP didn't cut me loose till I was litterally right on top of the field that can be an issue as well becasue if theoretically that were the case the Cirrus wouldn't have time to make calls on CTAF.
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use comm2 to start listening to the CTAF so that you can at least get some idea of the traffic. I tend to then flip back and forth to the CTAF while keeping a listening watch on both freqs, to make position announcements.
 
AdamZ said:
Jay has an excellent point! Many I'd even dare to say most PP and students who are not IR may not understand what it means or where I am when I say Pottstown Traffic Blue & White Archer Localizer 28 at googl, Pottstown. So I try and make it Pottstown Traffic Blue/White Archer Localizer 28 googl, 5 mi final, pottstown. It can be hard in a target rich enviorment. If its a VFR day Philly APP will tell me multiple targets in the vicinity of Wings before they cut me loose and I'll work my way in to the pattern but If I'm flying an Approach to the runway or mins for training it can be tough. The VFR guy may not know where the heck to look. If its VMC and that busy perhaps flying the full approach is not so wise.
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Absolutely.

If it's VMC it's best to cancel early and go VFR for the last 5 miles at least (I usually cancel 10 miles out VFR to the home field).

At the very least put the secondary radio on the unicom freq about 20 out (AWOS/ASOS won't change within 20 miles).
 
dmccormack said:
Maybe it's local conditions but...

Whenever I'm cleared for an approach, I'm told "No traffic observed" or "4 aircraft in the pattern at Rostraver..."
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I'd bet enough money to buy an airplane that there is no radar coverage at TPA in Rock Springs, WY. West of the Mississippi is a whole different world. Heck, even here in WI we have areas where you have to be at 7000 AGL to be in radar coverage.

It's interesting how being in the middle of nowhere can make it seem like you're all alone. But, one of my closest encounters with another plane was on the way to 6Y9 last year, up "nort" over the big north woods, no cities/airports/roads for miles, but a Cessna flew less than 1/4 mile in front of us and maybe 20 feet higher. By the time I saw him, I think only an altitude change would have separated us had he not been in front of us as "far" as he was.
 
The Cirrus was not from around there.

Student pilot Dave Knezovich, 54, of Rock Springs was killed in the crash, Sweetwater County Sheriff Rich Haskell said Monday. Knezovich had been flying a Cessna 172 for about an hour in the Rock Springs area when the collision occurred, he said.

The two victims in the second plane were Ralph Otto, 67, of Wilmette, Ill., and C. Michael Downey, 67, of Columbus, Ohio, Haskell said. Authorities have yet to determine which man was flying the Cirrus SR22.

Both Otto and Downey were members of the Great Lakes chapter of the Flying Physicians Association,
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http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-ap-wy-planecrash,0,4430059.story
 
Dave2 said:
And some people womnder why I get VERY unhappy when pilots don't use their radios.
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I get more upset when people don't look outside enough, like when flying an IFR approach in VMC.

I've heard some very useless position reports on the radio, but the eyes are more reliable.

I don't think anybody's ever hit anybody else when there was visual contact (except for botched formation work)- the same cannot be said for radio contact.
When I'm near or in the pattern, or in a CTAF-covered corridor somewhere, I take no comfort in others' position reports- it merely helps me narrow down a patch of sky to scan, and i don't relax until I have them spotted. I hate failing to spot announced traffic!

Of course, good radio work helps tremendously, but again, it's no substitute.

I have been very comfy sharing airport environments with NORDOs who obviously know how to look out and also how to fly fairly predictably. I've been trying harder lately to really scan properly, too... it's very easy to get lazy with that.

That's a big part of it- flying with the idea in mind that you should be where people might be looking, particularly when you know there's traffic nearby.
 
I was in Class C at CAK and had just completed my turnout from the runway (had just switched from tower to approach) when my wife said to me "Wow honey, he was really close". I hadn't a clue what she was talking about. She said "A plane just passed right over us going the other direction and he was really close". Not a peep on the radio and I hadn't even seen a blur of motion. I assumed it hadn't been that close, but in the several years since, I've asked her about how close that plane was relative to traffic we've had in sight, and she still says nothing has been anywhere as close as that. I shudder to think how close it may have been and my wife now has a (possibly well justified) fear of a mid-air. I think a ZRX is in our future - I continue to try to work on my scan but find myself going through the motions in a daze often during flight (head moving, but not really SEEING what is in front of me).

dmccormack said:
Maybe it's local conditions but...
The closest I've come to a mid-air was at our local field. I was cleared for the GPS but asked for the visual when Pitt Approach informed me there were "Four aircraft observed in the pattern..."
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rottydaddy said:
I get more upset when people don't look outside enough, like when flying an IFR approach in VMC.
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+1

I get more upset when people say "if they only had TIS, or Skywatch, or a Zaon". I can't dispute that technology improves the odds, but I have to wonder if it's pulling too many eyes INSIDE the airplane instead of OUTSIDE.

Greg
 
ggroves said:
I get more upset when people say "if they only had TIS, or Skywatch, or a Zaon".
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I've got TIS. (Yes, my LSA has a mode S transponder.) It's useful mainly for showing me which direction to look. Staring at it does little to improve collision avoidance...
 
ggroves said:
+1

I get more upset when people say "if they only had TIS, or Skywatch, or a Zaon". I can't dispute that technology improves the odds, but I have to wonder if it's pulling too many eyes INSIDE the airplane instead of OUTSIDE.
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And many people don't realize that you need to be in radar coverage and the other guy needs to have his transponder on and working for ANY traffic avoidance system to work - Anything from the portables to TIS to TCAS.

One of the worst traffic areas anywhere is OSH during the big show, and it's right there in the NOTAM: "Turn your transponder off within 30 nm of OSH." So in that situation it doesn't matter how many $$$$$ you've spent on your fancy traffic system, it won't work. :no:
 
TIS and TCAS work differently. TCAS directly interrogates other Transponders (0.5 second update rate), while TIS relies on terminal Mode S ground interrogator and accompanying data link (five second update rate).

If the other guy doesn't have a transponder, or turns it off... see acronym SOL.
 
dmccormack said:
TIS and TCAS work differently. TCAS directly interrogates other Transponders (0.5 second update rate), while TIS relies on terminal Mode S ground interrogator and accompanying data link (five second update rate).
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Right... But neither one will detect that J-3 without a transponder that you're about to run into...
 
dmccormack said:
TIS requires the Mode S relay (AFAIK, that's not nationwide yet)
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Will it ever be or will ADS-B with UAT and no ADS-R requirment supplant it?

It seems that only the airlines are really into the whole Mode-S solution and are against ADS-R which is needed to make the UAT and Mode-S stuff work with ADS_B.
 
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dmccormack said:
TIS requires the Mode S relay (AFAIK, that's not nationwide yet)
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Very much not nationwide. I've only encountered it, in general, in and around class B and C airspace. I'm sure there are other places with it, but I don't expect to get traffic advisories via TIS in rural areas.
 
jmaynard said:
Very much not nationwide. I've only encountered it, in general, in and around class B and C airspace. I'm sure there are other places with it, but I don't expect to get traffic advisories via TIS in rural areas.
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I've only flown one airplane with a Mode S transponder and that was a Beech Skipper (Don't ask...)

At the speeds that thing flies we can have a leisurely look at other traffic before deciding what to do.
 
dmccormack said:
I've only flown one airplane with a Mode S transponder and that was a Beech Skipper (Don't ask...)

At the speeds that thing flies we can have a leisurely look at other traffic before deciding what to do.
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The Skipper was sorta like the Piper Tomahawk. Fun plane. But you are right about the speeds
 
smigaldi said:
The Skipper was sorta like the Piper Tomahawk. Fun plane. But you are right about the speeds
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Haven't flown a Tomahawk yet, but the Skipper has none of the nasty spin history.

In fact the POH states you must add in pro-spin aileron deflection if you want it to spin.

Nice, light Beech control harmony, a bit sensitive in pitch on landing, but overall a great little trainer.
 
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