Choosing A Flight School

JP337

JP337

Filing Flight Plan
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Arizona
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JP337
My son and I are seriously considering going after our private pilot certificates and I’m concerned about wasting money on unethical instructor(s).
The problem that “may” exist is the proverbial coyote guarding the chicken coup. I recently read that the average new pilot spends 65 hours in training when only 40 hours are required. Perhaps I’m questioning that simply because I don’t have a clue what I’m talking about... yet.
So... let’s assume a student absorbs everything an instructor has to offer and his skills are flawless. What is to stop an instructor to add more time merely to dig deeper into the student’s wallet?
How does one go about avoiding such issues? If encountered, what if anything could be done about it?
 
In addition to my original post... our plan is a “crash course” (no pun intended) jumping in and absorbing everything we can. Our thoughts are to devote all of our attention to it, with no breaks or delays so “refreshing our memories” or motor skills isn’t required.
The only reason for the 65 hour statistic that I can imagine is extensive delays between subsequent lessons.
 
It’s important to note that everyone learns at a different rate. You may be good a maneuver that your son isn’t, and vice versa. Although you can immerse yourself into the materials and study, the practical matter of it is that the instructor is trying to provide you with good, consistent reactions, muscle memory, and demonstrated good aeronautical decision making (amongst other things). You (and any student) can become saturated in an hour or three hours of flying and you just won’t be able to absorb any more. You are likely going to have to re-learn and re-demonstrate some maneuvers because weather happens and forces a longer period where you haven’t flown. Lots of variables happen to extend the amount of hours you put in to achieve a point where the instructor is confident in your abilities to sign you off for solo, cross country, and to take your flight test.

That’s not to say that you can’t get it done in 40 - 65 hours. But I would worry less about the hours and more about what it takes to make you a confident, proficient pilot.

In terms of instructors... yeah, some are working to increase hours so they can qualify for a commercial airline job and may pad some hours with students. But the CFIs I’ve met have been good in not doing that. If you know other student pilots or pilots at a field that you want to train at, ask them who they might recommend as a CFI. No guarantees, but hopefully a recommended CFI may not drag out the hours on you for their own benefit.
 
rtk11 said:
It’s important to note that everyone learns at a different rate. You may be good a maneuver that your son isn’t, and vice versa. Although you can immerse yourself into the materials and study, the practical matter of it is that the instructor is trying to provide you with good, consistent reactions, muscle memory, and demonstrated good aeronautical decision making (amongst other things). You (and any student) can become saturated in an hour or three hours of flying and you just won’t be able to absorb any more. You are likely going to have to re-learn and re-demonstrate some maneuvers because weather happens and forces a longer period where you haven’t flown. Lots of variables happen to extend the amount of hours you put in to achieve a point where the instructor is confident in your abilities to sign you off for solo, cross country, and to take your flight test.

That’s not to say that you can’t get it done in 40 - 65 hours. But I would worry less about the hours and more about what it takes to make you a confident, proficient pilot.

In terms of instructors... yeah, some are working to increase hours so they can qualify for a commercial airline job and may pad some hours with students. But the CFIs I’ve met have been good in not doing that. If you know other student pilots or pilots at a field that you want to train at, ask them who they might recommend as a CFI. No guarantees, but hopefully a recommended CFI may not drag out the hours on you for their own benefit.
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Thanks for the instant reply! That’s precisely what I wanted to hear... I was just afraid that wouldn’t be the case. The system is designed with a critical flaw, being susceptible to a conflict of interest. I’m sure we can all agree that there are some dishonest / self serving people in this world. One bad one can spoil the reputation of thousands.
As for weather, we are in Arizona and it doesn’t get much better for consistent, year round flying conditions.
As far as proficiency, I’ll know if I’m not up to par without being told. I’m also well aware of the dangers of overconfidence. I’m not so proud to admit I need more help if that is the case. I don’t mind paying my dues for what is necessary, it’s the potential padding that concerns me.
I’ll follow the instructor’s advice on scheduling. Unnecessary breaks of weeks or months between lessons doesn’t sound efficient to me.
Another advantage we will have is that my son & I will be logging quite a few hours together in the upcoming years. Another set of eyes with an occasional slap on the back of the head could keep us both on our toes a little better.
Anyway... thanks for the advice!
 
If the school is busy, they will have no need to hold you back. There is a finite amount of good weather and airplanes that aren’t broke. If you are the only student in the school, this may be a concern. Otherwise, I doubt dragging you along even occurs to them.

As said above, it’s more important that the instructor is teaching you well. That you are learning.

The 40 hour minimum isn’t set because the faa thinks that’s how long it takes the average person, it’s set because they think that even the best learner needs that amount of experience to be safe on their own. Is going to take most people longer than 40, and some, a lot longer.
 
One more thought. Unless you feel like you’re not learning anything, this isn’t even an issue. It’s going to be awhile before you get to that point. And if you feel like your instructor is holding you back, switch. I did. My first instructor was going too slow for me, and I didn’t feel l was learning at a good pace. I was learning the same lesson over and over instead of moving on. I switched before I’d even solo’d. Even with a school switch, I got my cert in 45 hours. I went from being bored, to being completely saturated, less and less so until I was ready to take the test.
 
Was going to respond, but I’m turned off by the OP’s ignorant comment about unethical CFIs.
 
mscard88 said:
Was going to respond, but I’m turned off by the OP’s ignorant comment about unethical CFIs.
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So you believe there are no unethical CFIs?
 
Salty said:
So you believe there are no unethical CFIs?
Click to expand...

Im sure there are but I’ve been a CFI for 40 plus years in many different locations and have yet to be around one. I just don’t appreciate someone asking for advice and saying that right off the bat.
 
I think there are some CFI's that milk it. Check the other threads on this. I and others have felt that way and switched CFI's.

There is also at least one thread where we discussed time at check ride. It seems to support the average being 65, and that is only an average. Mine was 90 but I moved twice and changed instructors 3 times. As everyone here will agree, don't do what Ravioli does. EVER ;)

If you have the time and money... knock out the written with Gold Method, and then go to one of the 14day PPL schools. By no means the most economical method, but seems to fit your stated goal.
 
JP337 said:
My son and I are seriously considering going after our private pilot certificates and I’m concerned about wasting money on unethical instructor(s).
The problem that “may” exist is the proverbial coyote guarding the chicken coup. I recently read that the average new pilot spends 65 hours in training when only 40 hours are required. Perhaps I’m questioning that simply because I don’t have a clue what I’m talking about... yet.
So... let’s assume a student absorbs everything an instructor has to offer and his skills are flawless. What is to stop an instructor to add more time merely to dig deeper into the student’s wallet?
How does one go about avoiding such issues? If encountered, what if anything could be done about it?
Click to expand...
You'll be lucky if you get it done in 65 hours. The average is closer to 90. The way to look at flight training is "it's going to take as long as it takes for me to be safe." It took me 42 hours. I know people who took 130 hours. We are both safe, competent pilots, and that's all that counts.
 
Salty said:
If the school is busy, they will have no need to hold you back. There is a finite amount of good weather and airplanes that aren’t broke. If you are the only student in the school, this may be a concern. Otherwise, I doubt dragging you along even occurs to them.

As said above, it’s more important that the instructor is teaching you well. That you are learning.

The 40 hour minimum isn’t set because the faa thinks that’s how long it takes the average person, it’s set because they think that even the best learner needs that amount of experience to be safe on their own. Is going to take most people longer than 40, and some, a lot longer.
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Also remember that it's been 40 hours since the primary trainer was the Piper Cub.
 
Salty said:
So you believe there are no unethical CFIs?
Click to expand...
Well the OP does seem of the opinion that the only way he and his son will not be certificate at 40 hours is if the CFI is unethical. I don't know that I've ever seen a dangerous attitude from the word "go", but I don't think I'd want to be his instructor.
 
JP337 said:
My son and I are seriously considering going after our private pilot certificates and I’m concerned about wasting money on unethical instructor(s).
The problem that “may” exist is the proverbial coyote guarding the chicken coup. I recently read that the average new pilot spends 65 hours in training when only 40 hours are required. Perhaps I’m questioning that simply because I don’t have a clue what I’m talking about... yet.
So... let’s assume a student absorbs everything an instructor has to offer and his skills are flawless. What is to stop an instructor to add more time merely to dig deeper into the student’s wallet?
How does one go about avoiding such issues? If encountered, what if anything could be done about it?
Click to expand...

I have been in the aviation education business since 1968 and have worked with and rubbed elbows with dozens of instructors. I can remember only one who fit your description, and because he kept scheduling students for long cross-country trips it became apparent to everyone what was going on....and he was sent down the road. The vast majority of instructors are invested in their student's progress and success.

Bob Gardner
 
I've flown with more than a few flights schools, at least six since 2010 (add independent club instructors and it is easily over a dozen total), and never got the feeling that things were padded. Other complaints, sure, but not that. I was told a story by someone I trust of padding at a local "school" but it was exactly what a previous poster described, a slow school with one airplane and one instructor.

Regarding the 65 hours, you are doing this to fly airplanes, aren't you? So fly. You can use all that time toward your future instrument rating and just general proficiency. I NEVER worry about how many hours training is taking me provided I feel that I am still learning and not yet where I (or the instructor, if I trust their judgement and I won't fly more than once with an instructor whose judgement I don't trust) want to be.
 
I echo most of the things said above. And I'd like to add since you're in Arizona 99% of the places/instructors simply don't have the time to "pad" their wallets. They have wait lists weeks and even months long. I'm actually surprised you found somewhere that could do a pseudo accelerated program (I assume that's what you're doing?) for two relatively quickly.
 
JP337 said:
My son and I are seriously considering going after our private pilot certificates and I’m concerned about wasting money on unethical instructor(s).
The problem that “may” exist is the proverbial coyote guarding the chicken coup. I recently read that the average new pilot spends 65 hours in training when only 40 hours are required. Perhaps I’m questioning that simply because I don’t have a clue what I’m talking about... yet.
So... let’s assume a student absorbs everything an instructor has to offer and his skills are flawless. What is to stop an instructor to add more time merely to dig deeper into the student’s wallet?
How does one go about avoiding such issues? If encountered, what if anything could be done about it?
Click to expand...

Where in Arizona are you?
 
JP337 said:
...
As far as proficiency, I’ll know if I’m not up to par without being told. I’m also well aware of the dangers of overconfidence. I’m not so proud to admit I need more help if that is the case.
Click to expand...
I've met a lot of not-up-to-par folks (in different walks of life) that really, really thought that they were proficient in whatever was pertinent.
 
My general but not absolute guidelines are as follows:

Find an independent Part 61 CFI with his own airplanes.

Try to find one that just wants to teach others to fly and is not just building hours for the airlines.

Ask how many students he has recommended for the check ride and what his passing rate is. You can also ask if he is gold seal or not. That is indicative of a good success rate.

An older and more experienced CFI is better than those with just a couple hundred hours and a new CFI ticket. Not always true as there are exceptions but for the most part it is true.

Stay away from ones that wear pilot shirts and captain's bars.
 
Getting it done in 40 hrs is no problem if your good. Most people learning to fly cant judge their skills very well though and think they are way better than they are.
Cfis dont milk for time we are too busy as is.
Skills are easy to teach i can get someone to ppl standards in 15 hrs on maneuvers. Judgement is hard as is getting them enough situational awareness so they dont kill someone solo.
Right now my student is landing fine 8 hrs into his training however hes turning xwind at the same spot and in 2 more laps gonna catch the 172 in front and he doesnt have the judgement to extend upwind unless i tell him. Also isnt aware theres a twin maneuvering for the rnav approach and will likely conflict with us. Yeah his skills are good enough to solo but judgement not so much. So next flight is gonna be to 2 3 other airports to expose him to different scenarios in the patterns to see how he handles it. Id also like to see him with a xwind landing day. So 2 to 4 more flights before i turn him loose. Guy probably thinks im milking him just because he lands fine.
 
falconkidding said:
... Guy probably thinks im milking him just because he lands fine.
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Not if you told him what you told us. My first CFI was just riding along with me in the pattern when I turned to him and told him he was expensive company. He said, "alright, take me to the base of the tower and I'll get out." I didn't feel milked by either one of my instructors because they told me why I wasn't ready to do (insert whatever it was here)
 
falconkidding said:
Yeah his skills are good enough to solo but judgement not so much.
Click to expand...

Rod Machado put a blog post out about tapping a student on the shoulder and the student needing to verbalize the next two events in the flight. I thought it was really a good idea since you can understand if the student is ahead of the airplane and what their thought process is. Not sure if that would work for your student or not? Maybe it’ll help identify why he/she is turning at the same point in the pattern - because that’s what was taught and whether there’s any situational awareness as part of that decision.
 
rtk11 said:
Rod Machado put a blog post out about tapping a student on the shoulder and the student needing to verbalize the next two events in the flight...
Click to expand...

TAP. Next two things?
Shut down the engine and reconnect the Hobbs meter...

I have his old two-volume collection of lectures on cassette transferred to CD. Listened to them numerous times.
 
If you think the numbers of hours is the key factor in getting your license then you have a fundamental misunderstanding of aviation. It is not a drivers license and you always have to learn. It's as much about the physical aspect of controlling an aircraft as the mental attitude toward aviation safety. I think it's unsafe attitude at the outset to be concerned about hours necessary to get your license and whether your getting milked by a CFI. It's about being a competent and safe pilot and how many hours that takes is different for lots of reasons. I'd worry more about learning than counting hours and keeping watch on the perceived unscrupulous instructor.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
mscard88 said:
Was going to respond, but I’m turned off by the OP’s ignorant comment about unethical CFIs.
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I sincerely apologize for apparently hurting your feelings but as previously stated, it only takes one unethical CFI to generate doubt or suspicion of thousands of great ones. Too blindly assume “he” isn’t out there, simply because you don’t practice that yourself is incredibly naive.
 
I appreciate constructive criticism and advice but it’s apparent that some have reading comprehension problems and / or make unwarranted assumptions on things not said.
I refer those to my comment about “I’ll know immediately if I’m incompetent” and will ask for further instruction long before I’m told I need it. I have absolutely no desire to risk my son’s, the general public’s or my own safety. If we can’t do it right, we aren’t doing it!
As for building hours, my only motivation there is becoming a better / safer pilot. I’m retired!
The scenario I laid out was hypothetical... set to get an answer to a very valid question. I never claimed we would be ready to solo in record time. It was simply a “what if” and “how to choose the best CFI”.
 
As a ATP/CFI, good luck, you’re gonna need it.

Also how do you even know you’re capable of flying a plane? Not everyone has what it takes, and some that can pass the test don’t have the temperament to be safe in the cockpit.

I’d eat a nice piece of humble pie, this ain’t golf, if you suck at flying or take short cuts YOU WILL DIE, physics really don’t care.

If you’re serious, ask around for a local good high time freelance CFI, this is a good place for that, talk to him and see if you click, make a schedule up, commit to it and take it as it comes and understand you don’t know what you don’t know, make sure your more question than statements and enjoy the ride.

That said, don’t come at the CFI like your first post, the high time experienced CFIs will just walk away
 
JP337 said:
I refer those to my comment about “I’ll know immediately if I’m incompetent” and will ask for further instruction long before I’m told I need it.
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That statement alone implies a belief that you know as much as or more than your instructor. That is a dangerous attitude. In fact, it is one of 5 attitudes that the FAA has found factor in many pilot-induced accidents. These attitudes are anti-authority, impulsivity, invulnerability, macho, and resignation. You are exhibiting an anti-authority attitude, and possibly also a macho attitude.

The minimum hours requirement to become a pilot is just that - a bare minimum, the absolute bottom of the statistical spread. It was established many years ago, and since that time additional skill training has been added (such as a minimum of 3 hours simulated instrument training), the airspace has become more complex with more planes using it, and airplanes have become more complex. There are many variables beyond your own rate of learning.

Consider just the difference your home airport might make. If it's a busy airport, and especially if it is a tower controlled airport, you will spend more time just getting into the air than will the guy who taxis from a barn to take off on a lonely grass field. You can easily spend 20 to 30 minutes of each flight taxiing and waiting for clearances if you learn from a busy airport.
 
I'm sure you are a fine fellow but you came here to a community and put forth the premise that the system that has worked for so many in this community has "a critical flaw". That the system invites unethical behavior and you have to be on your guard. Also, you seem to believe that since the FAA published a number many years ago that that number is the gold standard when experienced folks tell you that the number is low, given today's aircraft and environment. The most egregious error I see though is "I’ll know if I’m not up to par without being told." No, you won't. How could you? Flying an airplane is entirely new to you and there are LOT of moving parts to learning to do it proficiently. And a good pilot never stops learning.

I will tell you how I pick a flight instructor. I ask around the airport for who is the toughest, strictest instructor on the field. I did that earlier this year for an instrument instructor and passed my checkride with flying colors. She is independent and she was strict. For my commercial, I am going with the flight school that manages my boss's lease-back aircraft. I asked the same question. Got the answer and set up my first flight with him for tomorrow. Told someone who flies there who I chose and the response "He's old-school and he's tough". Good. That is what I like. Here is the point. I want to achieve the instructor's idea of "up to par", not my idea. Because how could I know what is up to par on a commercial maneuver that I have never done? I can't. And you cannot know what is up to par on a private pilot task that you have never done
 
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Half Fast said:
That statement alone implies a belief that you know as much as or more than your instructor. That is a dangerous attitude. In fact, it is one of 5 attitudes that the FAA has found factor in many pilot-induced accidents. These attitudes are anti-authority, impulsivity, invulnerability, macho, and resignation. You are exhibiting an anti-authority attitude, and possibly also a macho attitude.

The minimum hours requirement to become a pilot is just that - a bare minimum, the absolute bottom of the statistical spread. It was established many years ago, and since that time additional skill training has been added (such as a minimum of 3 hours simulated instrument training), the airspace has become more complex with more planes using it, and airplanes have become more complex. There are many variables beyond your own rate of learning.

Consider just the difference your home airport might make. If it's a busy airport, and especially if it is a tower controlled airport, you will spend more time just getting into the air than will the guy who taxis from a barn to take off on a lonely grass field. You can easily spend 20 to 30 minutes of each flight taxiing and waiting for clearances if you learn from a busy airport.
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Once again, unwarranted assumptions are being made. My basic question was long enough without going into detail of my life history. You can’t possibly know me or the number of hours in my logbook. I stated I have an interest in a Private Pilot Certificate. I didn’t feel it was warranted to mention my military records.
While I may be a bit rusty, I didn’t forget everything. My area of concern is adapting from military operations to civilian airspace. Two completely different worlds.
From the “attitudes” of some of the alleged CFIs, I’ll just remain silent, play their game, then if necessary, recover any loss through litigation. Some of us can financially afford lengthy court battles & some can’t.
It’s best to know who you are dealing with. I’m out. Thanks.
 
JP337 said:
Once again, unwarranted assumptions are being made.
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Wrong. The assumption was warranted by your own statements.


My basic question was long enough without going into detail of my life history. You can’t possibly know me or the number of hours in my logbook. I stated I have an interest in a Private Pilot Certificate.
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Nor can you know the experience of the people who replied to your post, several of whom are retired military. You immediately assume that you have knowledge superior to theirs. That's quite arrogant.


I didn’t feel it was warranted to mention my military records.
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No need. Not of particular interest or relevancy.


While I may be a bit rusty, I didn’t forget everything. My area of concern is adapting from military operations to civilian airspace.
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Your first concern should be adapting to civil conversation, a skill you seem to lack.

You began here by insinuating CFIs were a den of thieves, and your first concern was not quality of instruction nor safety but was avoiding being conned. Your very first sentence on this forum said "...I’m concerned about wasting money on unethical instructor(s)." The fact that you don't see that as insulting to the community you seek to join says a lot about your attitude and about your lack of perception and communication skills.


From the “attitudes” of some of the alleged CFIs, I’ll just remain silent, play their game, then if necessary, recover any loss through litigation. Some of us can financially afford lengthy court battles & some can’t.
It’s best to know who you are dealing with. I’m out. Thanks.
Click to expand...

Wow. Already you're planning for your instruction to end in a lengthy court battle. Amazing.

Yep. You're arrogant. And foolish, to boot.
 
Right now as a CFI I am so busy it is a lot easier to direct the fool who walks into the flight school demanding to finish his training in 40 hours to another school of his choice.. Good luck.
 
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Half Fast said:
Wrong. The assumption was warranted by your own statements.
Nor can you know the experience of the people who replied to your post, several of whom are retired military. You immediately assume that you have knowledge superior to theirs. That's quite arrogant.
No need. Not of particular interest or relevancy.
Your first concern should be adapting to civil conversation, a skill you seem to lack.
You began here by insinuating CFIs were a den of thieves, and your first concern was not quality of instruction nor safety but was avoiding being conned. Your very first sentence on this forum said "...I’m concerned about wasting money on unethical instructor(s)." The fact that you don't see that as insulting to the community you seek to join says a lot about your attitude and about your lack of perception and communication skills.
Wow. Already you're planning for your instruction to end in a lengthy court battle. Amazing.
Yep. You're arrogant. And foolish, to boot.
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Thank you for your educated assessment doctor. My wife earned her doctorate in psychology at Tufts University. Where did you earn yours?
 
JP337 said:
Thank you for your educated assessment doctor. My wife earned her doctorate in psychology at Tufts University. Where did you earn yours?
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So let her read your posts then offer her diagnosis of your condition. (And God help the poor woman who married you...) But her academic achievments are not yours and therefore are irrelevant, unless she's treating you.
 
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Half Fast said:
So let her read your posts then offer her diagnosis of your condition. (And God the poor woman who married you...) But her academic achievments are not yours and therefore are irrelevant, unless she's treating you.
Click to expand...
I was merely inquiring where you earned your degree Doctor. It’s rather impressive to make such a complete diagnosis over a few quotes.
And as for a lengthy court battle... I don’t need to win a judgement the first try. Watching a crooked CFI go bankrupt defending himself is ample satisfaction. Care to give it a try?
 
JP337 said:
I was merely inquiring where you earned your degree Doctor. It’s rather impressive to make such a complete diagnosis over a few quotes.
And as for a lengthy court battle... I don’t need to win a judgement the first try. Watching a crooked CFI go bankrupt defending himself is ample satisfaction. Care to give it a try?
Click to expand...


Amazing start to a forum you've made. Do you always make such an excellent first impression?
 
JP337 said:
“I’ll know immediately if I’m incompetent”
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Funniest thing I've read in a long time.

Second only to "My wife is a psychologist."

Is this how it goes:
W) Honey, do you feel competent?
H) Yes Dear. Do you think I'm competent?
W)Of course Honey.
H) Do you you want to get in a plane with me Dear?

W) Heck no you daft bastard!
 
what are you going to do after you 40-65 hours? By the way, average means that there are people that take a lot more.

Find an instructor that you can click with.
Fly often, 3 times a week if you can. Some will get cancelled
Work hard at it, which means self study and work on the written.

You will take a checkride when you are ready, whether it be 40 to 70 hours. But after that, lets assume you may keep flying anyway? Right? So does it matter a lot?
This is like arguing whether someone solo'd at 10 or 20 hrs...
 
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