China Airlines goes down with 132 souls on board

Therookguy said:
The plane looks remarkably intact for a nose dive at 30,000ft per minute. I suppose it could have oversped without breaking up, but I would expect the plane would have way more damage.
Click to expand...
30,000 feet per minute is less than 300 knots.
 
Dana said:
What was that Chinese plane crash in California a few years back, where it hit a berm on takeoff or landing?
Click to expand...
Asian 214. The Captain was an experienced pilot but was transitioning from being an A320 Captain to being a B777 Captain. The pilot in the right seat was a line check airman (LCA) who was giving him his initial operating experience (IOE). IOE is the last phase of training where you fly with an LCA for a few trips to gain experience in the actual airplane, after having done all of the previous training in the simulator, before you are fully qualified.

The Captain-in-training because confused about the auto-throttle and flight director modes on final approach. The autoflight philosophy on the Boeing is significantly different than the philosophy used by Airbus. He inadvertently changed the auto-thrust mode to [ARM} where it wouldn't "wake up" on it's own when the speed slowed below the bugged speed. The oversight wasn't noticed until a little under (IIRC) 500' above touchdown, at which point the power was increased to something around full power (I don't remember if it was GA, CON, or CLB Power) but it wasn't enough. The airplane didn't have enough energy to clear the sea wall on 28R at SFO.

The part I don't understand about this accident is why they planned a LOC approach (G/S was OTS) using V/S mode on the autoflight/FD. It was a perfect opportunity to do a LOC/VNAV approach which would have avoided the issues which led to the error with the auto-thrust mode. It wasn't a mistake, though. They had briefed the LOC/V/S approach before descent.
 
Larry in TN said:
Asian 214. The Captain was an experienced pilot but was transitioning from being an A320 Captain to being a B777 Captain. The pilot in the right seat was a line check airman (LCA) who was giving him his initial operating experience (IOE). IOE is the last phase of training where you fly with an LCA for a few trips to gain experience in the actual airplane, after having done all of the previous training in the simulator, before you are fully qualified.

The Captain-in-training because confused about the auto-throttle and flight director modes on final approach. The autoflight philosophy on the Boeing is significantly different than the philosophy used by Airbus. He inadvertently changed the auto-thrust mode to [ARM} where it wouldn't "wake up" on it's own when the speed slowed below the bugged speed. The oversight wasn't noticed until a little under (IIRC) 500' above touchdown, at which point the power was increased to something around full power (I don't remember if it was GA, CON, or CLB Power) but it wasn't enough. The airplane didn't have enough energy to clear the sea wall on 28R at SFO.

The part I don't understand about this accident is why they planned a LOC approach (G/S was OTS) using V/S mode on the autoflight/FD. It was a perfect opportunity to do a LOC/VNAV approach which would have avoided the issues which led to the error with the auto-thrust mode. It wasn't a mistake, though. They had briefed the LOC/V/S approach before descent.
Click to expand...
Pretty close.

They briefed a visual, using LOC guidance and vert speed for the approach (wouldn't have been my first choice of how to fly it, but maybe they needed to log a visual approach for IOE).

Having flown both Boeing and McDonnell Douglas flight control systems, I can say (for me), the Boeing system is a confusing hot mess compared to Mc-D's. Transitioning from the MD-11 to the 777 caused me to repeatedly shake my head in disbelief and the Boeing Autopilot/Flight Director System (AFDS). Now, after 7 years of flying AFDSs, I get it and understand it well, but, man... it can be so much more user friendly.

The Asiana crew fell into the FLCH Trap. It wasn't really talked about or really well known before Asiana 214, but now heavily briefed and demonstrated during training.

In the 777, the autothrottles will "wake up" when the airspeed gets low and accelerate the aircraft to a safe speed, almost always. The one time it won't do that is what happened to Asiana. They had the vertical mode as FLCH SPD, which means that the AFDS is using pitch to control speed and the throttles were in HOLD which means that the autothrottle servos were disconnected and the thrust levers will stay wherever you put them (in this case, idle). They also had the altitude in the Mode Control Panel (where you tell the APFD what to fly) set to an altitude above them. That is the FLCH trap. In this case, the autothrottle system will never wake up. They disconnected the autopilot and were raising the nose to try to get back to glide path, but with the AFDS in HOLD/FLCH SPD the thrust levers were going to stay right were they were. In idle.

Lots of links in the chain here, but one is definitely Boeing's weird-ass idea on how the AFDS operates, especially for new pilots transitioning from other systems that are much more intuitive.
 
Sluggo63 said:
In the 777, the autothrottles will "wake up" when the airspeed gets low and accelerate the aircraft to a safe speed, almost always. The one time it won't do that is what happened to Asiana. They had the vertical mode as FLCH SPD, which means that the AFDS is using pitch to control speed and the throttles were in HOLD which means that the autothrottle servos were disconnected and the thrust levers will stay wherever you put them (in this case, idle). They also had the altitude in the Mode Control Panel (where you tell the APFD what to fly) set to an altitude above them. That is the FLCH trap. In this case, the autothrottle system will never wake up. They disconnected the autopilot and were raising the nose to try to get back to glide path, but with the AFDS in HOLD/FLCH SPD the thrust levers were going to stay right were they were. In idle.
Click to expand...

To be fair to Boeing, this isn't any different than the MD-80 or E-190 (the two non-Boeing airplanes I've flown with A/T). As soon as you put the plane in FLCH (or whatever the manufacturer wants to call it), the autothrottles are done until a different vertical mode is selected (or occurs automatically such as capturing an altitude or glideslope). Anyone with any experience with autothrottles should know that hand flying in that vertical mode is a great way to dick it all up - at least in the three autothrottle equipped airplanes I've flown. :)
 
I know it's just simple math, but if you square the vertical and horizontal velocities, add them together, and take the square root, you'll get the velocity in the direction traveled, more or less. That aircraft was going pretty quick, I believe. That's assuming the gps ground track data doesn't already include the vertical speed component.
 
The highest ground speed was during the pull out of the recovery attempt when descent was arrested and a short climb was attained. In the final moments as caught on the camera it looked like a nearly vertical descent.
 
kayoh190 said:
To be fair to Boeing, this isn't any different than the MD-80 or E-190 (the two non-Boeing airplanes I've flown with A/T). As soon as you put the plane in FLCH (or whatever the manufacturer wants to call it), the autothrottles are done until a different vertical mode is selected (or occurs automatically such as capturing an altitude or glideslope). Anyone with any experience with autothrottles should know that hand flying in that vertical mode is a great way to dick it all up - at least in the three autothrottle equipped airplanes I've flown. :)
Click to expand...
I'm sure. My albeit limited experience in automated jets is just in the MD-11 (and 757/777). Everything else was old school where I was the throttle servo... and that system screwed up more than I'd like to acknowledge. ;)
 
Sluggo63 said:
I'm sure. My albeit limited experience in automated jets is just in the MD-11 (and 757/777). Everything else was old school where I was the throttle servo... and that system screwed up more than I'd like to acknowledge. ;)
Click to expand...
Hopefully not like the copilot who got me to .94M because he didn’t understand that when you point the nose down, the airplane speeds up?

(apparently I have the nasty habit of thinking I can verbally direct someone out of such things rather than simply braining them with the Mag Lite and taking over.)
 
Sluggo63 said:
Pretty close.

They briefed a visual, using LOC guidance and vert speed for the approach (wouldn't have been my first choice of how to fly it, but maybe they needed to log a visual approach for IOE).

Having flown both Boeing and McDonnell Douglas flight control systems, I can say (for me), the Boeing system is a confusing hot mess compared to Mc-D's. Transitioning from the MD-11 to the 777 caused me to repeatedly shake my head in disbelief and the Boeing Autopilot/Flight Director System (AFDS). Now, after 7 years of flying AFDSs, I get it and understand it well, but, man... it can be so much more user friendly.

The Asiana crew fell into the FLCH Trap. It wasn't really talked about or really well known before Asiana 214, but now heavily briefed and demonstrated during training.

In the 777, the autothrottles will "wake up" when the airspeed gets low and accelerate the aircraft to a safe speed, almost always. The one time it won't do that is what happened to Asiana. They had the vertical mode as FLCH SPD, which means that the AFDS is using pitch to control speed and the throttles were in HOLD which means that the autothrottle servos were disconnected and the thrust levers will stay wherever you put them (in this case, idle). They also had the altitude in the Mode Control Panel (where you tell the APFD what to fly) set to an altitude above them. That is the FLCH trap. In this case, the autothrottle system will never wake up. They disconnected the autopilot and were raising the nose to try to get back to glide path, but with the AFDS in HOLD/FLCH SPD the thrust levers were going to stay right were they were. In idle.

Lots of links in the chain here, but one is definitely Boeing's weird-ass idea on how the AFDS operates, especially for new pilots transitioning from other systems that are much more intuitive.
Click to expand...
Speed on thrust vs. speed on pitch is a fundamental piece of knowledge to fly any aircraft equipped with auto throttles or auto thrust for the bus drivers. It should be a very basic element to training but that is sometimes not the case.
 
SkyDog58 said:
I have flown on several Chinese domestic airline flights including a couple on China Eastern. I never noticed a tendency to have a three man crew though I guess it is possible. I am fairly observant and am the type that likes to watch as much of the operation as possible so I would hope I’d have noticed. Then again, the cabin crew tend to be distracting.

What I have noticed are professional, proficient and efficient operations and smooth flights. And yes, I know my small sample size is statistically insignificant and will not impact anyone’s opinion on the subject of their pilots and operations.
Click to expand...
Small sample size indeed, your testimony doesn’t convince me in the least. I won’t be flying with them.
 
Just scuttlebutt, but apparently the chinese are now saying it was a crew suicide. This is from my buddy who is in China.

https://gettr.com/post/p11kc3aae1b

From translate:

“There were three pilots of the crashed aircraft. The captain was a young second-generation pilot, and his father was the old captain of China Eastern Airlines and the leader of China Eastern Airlines. There are two co-pilots, one is a young man who has just boarded the plane not long ago. The other is the old pilot who tried to commit suicide, that is, the long-planned person who broke the news from Brother 7. This old pilot used to be a senior captain instructor, available on the Internet, and was rated as a “five-star captain” by China Eastern Airlines. Yes, he was originally the captain. Last year, because of a flight mistake, he flew out of Yichang Airport with a terrain warning️️, which was classified as a serious unsafe incident, and was subsequently subject to various remedial actions by China Eastern Airlines Yunnan Branch. In the end, he failed the simulator exam and was immediately disqualified as a captain. This is a great insult to a pilot captain who is about to retire. Brother 7 said that he had been planning for a long time since January, and carefully arranged to fly with the leader's son. After adding that his family died of the vaccine, the money was defrauded by the Communist Party. This old pilot has lost his humanity for a long time in despair. At the same time, it also shows how tragic the internal struggle of China Eastern Airlines is. The so-called Proud sons of Heaven pilots are nothing more than a group of flesh and blood machines under the rule of CCP, with no freedom and no human rights. Do you dare to be a plane flown by a Communist pilot? Listen to Brother 7 and travel less. May the dead rest in peace”
 
So, this means... that Dan was right?@!?@! Two terrible tragedies...
 
DavidWhite said:
Just scuttlebutt, but apparently the chinese are now saying it was a crew suicide. This is from my buddy who is in China.

https://gettr.com/post/p11kc3aae1b

From translate:

“There were three pilots of the crashed aircraft. The captain was a young second-generation pilot, and his father was the old captain of China Eastern Airlines and the leader of China Eastern Airlines. There are two co-pilots, one is a young man who has just boarded the plane not long ago. The other is the old pilot who tried to commit suicide, that is, the long-planned person who broke the news from Brother 7. This old pilot used to be a senior captain instructor, available on the Internet, and was rated as a “five-star captain” by China Eastern Airlines. Yes, he was originally the captain. Last year, because of a flight mistake, he flew out of Yichang Airport with a terrain warning️️, which was classified as a serious unsafe incident, and was subsequently subject to various remedial actions by China Eastern Airlines Yunnan Branch. In the end, he failed the simulator exam and was immediately disqualified as a captain. This is a great insult to a pilot captain who is about to retire. Brother 7 said that he had been planning for a long time since January, and carefully arranged to fly with the leader's son. After adding that his family died of the vaccine, the money was defrauded by the Communist Party. This old pilot has lost his humanity for a long time in despair. At the same time, it also shows how tragic the internal struggle of China Eastern Airlines is. The so-called Proud sons of Heaven pilots are nothing more than a group of flesh and blood machines under the rule of CCP, with no freedom and no human rights. Do you dare to be a plane flown by a Communist pilot? Listen to Brother 7 and travel less. May the dead rest in peace”
Click to expand...

Who is this person saying all of this?
 
Google translate i hope. And you people have the temerity of throwing shade at my so called "sunday" words. An outrage! I do declare *fixes monocle, flips page on thesaurus next to the toilet* :D
 
It's a lot easier to blame the crew for intentionally crashing it, than it is to say that their training or maintenance - or both - was inadequate. I don't believe it for a second.
 
Ed Haywood said:
That is the vertical component of velocity, not the airspeed.
Click to expand...
That was supposedly the descent rate when the nose was pointed at the ground. Regardless, it was expressed as possibly causing an "overspeed." Is there an overspeed condition for "the vertical component of velocity" as opposed to airspeed?
 
Albany Tom said:
It's a lot easier to blame the crew for intentionally crashing it, than it is to say that their training or maintenance - or both - was inadequate. I don't believe it for a second.
Click to expand...

Both of the pilots in front of their respective yokes had thousands of hours in type. The plane was a couple of years old (I think six).

It is NOT easy to say it was the pilots at all. It is equally NOT easy to say it was maintenance. Most accidents are directly or indirectly related to human factors (from GA to 135).

The descent profile is extremely perplexing.
 
DavidWhite said:
Just scuttlebutt, but apparently the chinese are now saying it was a crew suicide. This is from my buddy who is in China.

https://gettr.com/post/p11kc3aae1b

From translate:

“There were three pilots of the crashed aircraft. The captain was a young second-generation pilot, and his father was the old captain of China Eastern Airlines and the leader of China Eastern Airlines. There are two co-pilots, one is a young man who has just boarded the plane not long ago. The other is the old pilot who tried to commit suicide, that is, the long-planned person who broke the news from Brother 7. This old pilot used to be a senior captain instructor, available on the Internet, and was rated as a “five-star captain” by China Eastern Airlines. Yes, he was originally the captain. Last year, because of a flight mistake, he flew out of Yichang Airport with a terrain warning️️, which was classified as a serious unsafe incident, and was subsequently subject to various remedial actions by China Eastern Airlines Yunnan Branch. In the end, he failed the simulator exam and was immediately disqualified as a captain. This is a great insult to a pilot captain who is about to retire. Brother 7 said that he had been planning for a long time since January, and carefully arranged to fly with the leader's son. After adding that his family died of the vaccine, the money was defrauded by the Communist Party. This old pilot has lost his humanity for a long time in despair. At the same time, it also shows how tragic the internal struggle of China Eastern Airlines is. The so-called Proud sons of Heaven pilots are nothing more than a group of flesh and blood machines under the rule of CCP, with no freedom and no human rights. Do you dare to be a plane flown by a Communist pilot? Listen to Brother 7 and travel less. May the dead rest in peace”
Click to expand...
Is this from the China Onion?
 
"...his family died of the vaccine"

Sounds totally legit, not the least bit suspicious.
 
I didn't notice a video in that link...but I don't really want to see it anyway.
but just skimming the comments about this as a nosedive, I'm reminded of Value Jet down in the Everglades back in the mid 1990's. haunting.
 
Brad W said:
I'm reminded of Value Jet down in the Everglades back in the mid 1990's. haunting.
Click to expand...
That was an oxygen generator-fed fire which burned through the control cables. The DC9 elevator is unpowered. The yokes are connected by a cable and pulley system to control tabs on the back of each elevator. The two elevators are not connected and are free-floating.

The 737 has hydraulically-powered elevators.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top