Childhood depression/social anxiety/SSRIs, adult recreational pot use--path to 3rd class?

Marijuana is still a federally illegal substance regardless of state law. The FAA is a federal oversight organization. Taking a single hit off a joint makes you meet the criteria for regulatory "substance abuse" for 2 years.

If you've smoked in the last 2 years and you answer the medical application honestly you will end up in the very expensive and time consuming HIMS process with a minimum diagnosis of substance abuse.

You had to be given a diagnosis of something to qualify for the medical marijuana prescription card. This is now part of your medical record and will have to be reported. In most states, the vast majority of the qualifying conditions for a card are long term chronic conditions that will result in quite a bit of FAA scrutiny. If your medical records reflect habitual use of marijuana recreationally (visit/admission notes in documentation) you'll be in HIMS. If you report the condition and there isn't substantial evidence that the condition was diagnosed primarily to obtain the card, you'll be in HIMS.

Holding a medical marijuana card is a VERY bad idea for anyone that wants to fly. It's basically voluntarily documenting a disqualifying medical condition for the purposes of obtaining treatment through a drug deemed federally illegal. I believe people with illness that receive therapeutic benefit from marijuana should have access, but we all know a large majority of card holders are just gaming the system to legally get high. If you want a comparison, ask anyone holding an FAA medical certificate what choices they make about medical care to protect that certificate.

If you're not going to completely stop smoking don't even bother with learning to fly. This goes for flight in any form (sport pilot, recreational, private, etc.)

You can take as many lessons as you like, but you need a medical certificate to solo. If you have reasonable aptitude and fly with an instructor regularly you could be up against this obstacle in as little as 10 hours. At that point you'll be paying a lot of money per hour just to prevent regression of what you've learned. Depending on your medical history besides the marijuana use, medical certification could take years or be impossible.

I don't want to speak for Dr. Chien, but I would strongly advise you do a few searches here regarding his stance on marijuana use and aviation. That research could be important before engaging someone who provides high quality services in limited supply to a high demand market. He is selective about which cases he takes on.
 
I'm thinking that even if marijuana becomes a federally legal substance, as some legislators are pushing for, it will still be off limits to pilots.
 
PaulS said:
I'm thinking that even if marijuana becomes a federally legal substance, as some legislators are pushing for, it will still be off limits to pilots.
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I would agree with this. Even if it is made federally legal, which I don't think will be for many years (decriminalized perhaps..there is a difference), there is still no available testing that I have heard to determine "current" level of impairment. No chance IMO that it becomes federally legal before that.
 
DucksInARow said:
Also, does consulting with a Sr HIMS such as Dr. Chien mean any information or records shared *will* become part of the record at some point regardless even if the outcome of said consult is "3rd class is not in the cards, don't even attempt it?"
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During the consultation process, if you never fill out MedXpress or the paper version of FAA form 8500-8, any information gathered, presented to, or discussed with the AME remains between you and the AME.

Only after you fill out the application and the AME (or the office staff) opens the file in the system does an official record of the visit happen, including submission of all data you provided verbally or on paper.
 
Let’s do some unpacking.

DucksInARow said:
Let's take a hypothetical scenario…But issues went away, and meds were stopped in HS.
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Question 18 asks “have you ever in your life” and lists a whole bunch of things. You’re probably going to have to check a box there, whether you can find documentation or not; the alternative is lying on a federal form. Don’t turn a medical problem into a legal problem.

DucksInARow said:
…Moved to a medical state, got a prescription, but continued using recreationally once legalized….
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Though it’s a bit dated, this piece from AOPA does a good job some insight. Realize at some point in your life you May have been diagnosed with something to qualify for that MMJ card. You’ll have to report that regardless of current use/use within 2 years.

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2018/september/pilot/for-the-record-keep-off-the-grass

DucksInARow said:
1. If they wanted to get started towards PPL, should they wait 2yrs before taking lessons?

2. What does the path to a 3rd class medical passing mark look like, and how much does it cost?

3. Jump straight to Dr. Chien before anything else? If so, what is that process like?

4. Wait 2yrs and then jump straight to Dr. Chien for one less issue on the list?

5. Take lessons and do all the things up to soloing and just drag out lessons with a CFI till the 2yr mark?
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1. Don’t touch a plane until you have an FAA medical in hand. Don’t give an AME a medical application without knowing you will eventually be certified, otherwise it’s a waste of money. Lots of money.

2. You can consult the FAA AME guide for the various decision trees to see what the path could look like. If you end up requiring the HIMS process, it can be several thousands of dollars, if not more. You may need to submit to self funded UA exams for several years, and you may need specialty exams routinely. This stuff also needs lots of money.

3. He’s the guy I’d start with. Go here and follow directions.

http://www.aeromedicaldoc.com/how-to-start.html

4. You’d have to ask him.

5. See answer 1.

If cost matters, aviation is not the hobby or career for you.
 
DucksInARow said:
Any insights into the other questions?
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The only thing to add is to make sure that whomever you select to advise and guide you through the process is the correct one for the job. Many folks to choose from, but possible only a very small number are the correct ones for your situation.

You may need to plan for traveling to meet with this individual. Possibly multiple times.

With the correct guidance, difficult medical certification can eventually be accomplished. It just takes patience, willingness to invest the money and time, and perseverance.
 
DucksInARow said:
How is that best determined, such as for the specific practice I listed?
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One you are aware of, Dr. Chien.

http://www.aeromedicaldoc.com/how-to-start.html

Would he potentially refer to a more local HIMS that can see someone through?
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I think this is an excellent question for him rather than us.

An important tip when working with Dr. Chien. Leave any argumentative attitude at the curb. Same with the desire to withhold information.

His time is in such demand that he has little desire to work with airmen who don’t listen or who don’t provide the full picture.
 
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Sport pilot?

It's an option to look at.

But please, whatever you do, DO NOT go on a discovery flight if there is even the slightest chance that a hair sample would reveal even a minute presence of THC in your system! In the event that there is a mishap, and an investigation finds that, the CFI would be in trouble for allowing a person who was possibly under the influence (no matter how remote the chance) to even be in his airplane. Don't put that burden on some guy trying to make a living fulfilling other people's dreams.

But first pick one - Sport or PP. And yes, I recommend starting a course of ground school study. Even if you're home-schooled like I was, it will prove to yourself whether or not you are willing to put forth the effort for the "less fun" part of the overall experience. There are lots of excellent reference textbooks out there, and some of the best are available in PDF for free, right off he FAA website. If you don't like reading from an electronic device (hated it), you can find very affordable print copies for less than $20. There are lots of test study manuals out there too. I found one I really liked. I can name if, if you're interested.
 
DucksInARow said:
Right, so it sounds like you are advising "get a Sr HIMS AME consult up front" given the card?
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No, I’d advise you find an AME that specializes in difficult case certification, and your case appears to present several difficulties. It may be a HIMS AME,
may not be.

DucksInARow said:
…Based on that article, it sounds like deferral is inevitable, so the only path is to plan ahead and be proactive, which again points to doing the HIMS consult up front I think?
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Until you consult with an AME who can help determine if there’s a path to certification for you, I wouldn’t recommend trying to figure this out yourself. Being proactive is presenting your case to the consulting physician, listening to their response, and following their coaching if there’s a path for you. Unfortunately, there’s not a path for everyone based on their medical history.

DucksInARow said:
…What about a discovery flight to validate whether this is going to in fact be worth it? Also, if not beginning lessons until the certification is certain, is studying for the written PPL test and passing that in advance a possible approach to fill the time?.
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Nothing wrong with that if it’s believed there is a path for your history to get certified.

DucksInARow said:
…Would he potentially refer to a more local HIMS that can see someone through?
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Potentially; there’s something like 140 HIMS AMEs and even fewer of other specialty docs that may bee needed across the entire US.

DucksInARow said:
…I don't recall stating that it was a major concern, in fact, I stated it was lower on the priority list compared to getting this locked down.
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I tell everyone the same thing for this perspective: if there’s a certification path for you, the medical may end up costing more than what you will spend to become a private pilot; it may have ongoing expenses, potentially for your lifetime, to continue exercising pilot privileges.
 
Dry Creek said:
But please, whatever you do, DO NOT go on a discovery flight if there is even the slightest chance that a hair sample would reveal even a minute presence of THC in your system! In the event that there is a mishap, and an investigation finds that, the CFI would be in trouble for allowing a person who was possibly under the influence (no matter how remote the chance) to even be in his airplane. Don't put that burden on some guy trying to make a living fulfilling other people's dreams.
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I think this advice is more than a little over the top. For one thing, I'm sure there have been millions of passengers whose hair samples would have indicated some past use. There's nothing that says they can't be in someone's airplane. It's not as if they are using in flight. Someone going on a discovery flight is just a passenger. There would be no reason to test their hair in the event of a mishap.

To the OP, I think it would be a good idea to take a discovery flight. It would be silly to go to the expense of getting a medical if you found out that flying was not for you.
 
DucksInARow said:
Right, so it sounds like you are advising "get a Sr HIMS AME consult up front" given the card? Based on that article, it sounds like deferral is inevitable, so the only path is to plan ahead and be proactive, which again points to doing the HIMS consult up front I think?

What about a discovery flight to validate whether this is going to in fact be worth it? Also, if not beginning lessons until the certification is certain, is studying for the written PPL test and passing that in advance a possible approach to fill the time?



Several thousand dollars is in budget.



Would he potentially refer to a more local HIMS that can see someone through?



I don't recall stating that it was a major concern, in fact, I stated it was lower on the priority list compared to getting this locked down.
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So, You have money and think that it will solve your problems, an argumentative attitude, and a drug habit. Please find another hobby.
 
Everskyward said:
I think this advice is more than a little over the top. For one thing, I'm sure there have been millions of passengers whose hair samples would have indicated some past use. There's nothing that says they can't be in someone's airplane. It's not as if they are using in flight. Someone going on a discovery flight is just a passenger. There would be no reason to test their hair in the event of a mishap.

To the OP, I think it would be a good idea to take a discovery flight. It would be silly to go to the expense of getting a medical if you found out that flying was not for you.
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FAR 91.17 (b) Except in an emergency, no pilot of a civil aircraft may allow a person who appears to be intoxicated, or who demonstrates by manner or physical indications that the individual is under the influence of drugs (except a medical patient under proper care) to be carried on that aircraft.

As best as I can tell, there really has been no established minimum amount of THC to determine "under the influence". Any detectable amount could raise suspicions. Like anything else the government controls, they can set the limits, and if they are looking for probable cause, everything comes into play. Would a person who "used" 30 days ago show any outward appearance of being under the influence of drugs? Probably not. But when an investigator is grasping at straws, why give them anything to cloud the reputation of the CFI?
 
Dry Creek said:
FAR 91.17 (b) Except in an emergency, no pilot of a civil aircraft may allow a person who appears to be intoxicated, or who demonstrates by manner or physical indications that the individual is under the influence of drugs (except a medical patient under proper care) to be carried on that aircraft.

As best as I can tell, there really has been no established minimum amount of THC to determine "under the influence". Any detectable amount could raise suspicions. Like anything else the government controls, they can set the limits, and if they are looking for probable cause, everything comes into play. Would a person who "used" 30 days ago show any outward appearance of being under the influence of drugs? Probably not. But when an investigator is grasping at straws, why give them anything to cloud the reputation of the CFI?
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I think you are grasping at more straws than any investigator would, but whatever...
 
Dry Creek said:
But please, whatever you do, DO NOT go on a discovery flight if there is even the slightest chance that a hair sample would reveal even a minute presence of THC in your system!
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In the hair isn’t in the system. While they do use postmortem hair analysis in some cases to establish a historical pattern of drug use, it’s not useful in determining intoxication at the time of the incident.

Dry Creek said:
FAR 91.17 (b) Except in an emergency, no pilot of a civil aircraft may allow a person who appears to be intoxicated, or who demonstrates by manner or physical indications that the individual is under the influence of drugs (except a medical patient under proper care) to be carried on that aircraft.

As best as I can tell, there really has been no established minimum amount of THC to determine "under the influence". Any detectable amount could raise suspicions. Like anything else the government controls, they can set the limits, and if they are looking for probable cause, everything comes into play. Would a person who "used" 30 days ago show any outward appearance of being under the influence of drugs? Probably not. But when an investigator is grasping at straws, why give them anything to cloud the reputation of the CFI?
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Assuming he isn’t currently using and hasn’t in long enough for the drug to be out of blood, fat, and eyeball jelly, it should be a non issue. While I agree the government will go to any length to nail someone, it would work better for them to just fake the blood toxicology result than to rely on a positive hair sample as evidence of intoxication at the time of the crash.

Having said that, unless OP has very long hair, if THC is still in his hair at all, he hasn’t been sober long enough to be considering piloting. In addition there’s the underlying reason he had a medical card in the first place. I see no problem with OP taking a discovery flight but my gut says he should pursue some other hobby. Red flags are: depression in childhood plus “continued using recreationally” into middle age. That’s a pervasive pattern. I’m thinking chances he’ll ever be issued are slim.
 
Rushie said:
Having said that, unless OP has very long hair, if THC is still in his hair at all, he hasn’t been sober long enough to be considering piloting.
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Somebody finally gets it.

Call me paranoid, or just risk aversive, either way - I don't like taking chances. I work in the nuclear power field. Federal investigators dig to very deep levels to try and "discover why this happened", which translates into "assign blame".
 
Dry Creek said:
Somebody finally gets it.

Call me paranoid, or just risk aversive, either way - I don't like taking chances. I work in the nuclear power field. Federal investigators dig to very deep levels to try and "discover why this happened", which translates into "assign blame".
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LOL.... I know the feeling about being watched....FAA, NTSB, DoD, USAF, USN, FMCSA, Texas DPS, Texas HHS, DoE, my company..... All have the ability to have me tested after an accident happens. Used to get popped every other month or so when I worked in the refinery, but then we had such a small crew, that it was almost a guarantee that you would get tagged for routine testing at least 4 times a year.
 
DucksInARow said:
In this case, let's also assume depression and SSRIs were for a brief childhood period, and have not manifested again since then. It sounds like one or several (possibly ongoing) psychological evaluations might be in the future to prove that out if the case is taken up by someone like Dr. Chien.
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If it was brief and only one episode, you may be certifiable without going the HIMS or SI route. Call Bruce and get the scoop.
 
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DucksInARow said:
..I.someone like Dr. Chien. …
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Is the only person qualified to give you the answers you seek. Questions you pose are raised here somewhat routinely although your particular combination of challenges is rare; the forum search feature is your friend.
 
DucksInARow said:
My intent with this thread is to gather information about the scenario provided. So in an effort to remove some variables from speculation, let's assume in this case sobriety is at least several months from the moment the conflict became apparent, and would continue in perpetuity. Any personal views on recreational use seem moot as the FAA seems very clear on their stance. Understanding the possible success rate and options for a path forward in light of that is what I'm here to research, and I appreciate you and others who are providing these insights.

In this case, let's also assume depression and SSRIs were for a brief childhood period, and have not manifested again since then. It sounds like one or several (possibly ongoing) psychological evaluations might be in the future to prove that out if the case is taken up by someone like Dr. Chien. Am I understanding that correctly? Or is depression on a medical record with a brief blip of SSRI use as a teenager 100% guaranteed denial, no possible path forward?
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Like the previous two posters just said, the only way to get an answer is for Dr. Chien (or equivalent - if you can find one) reads over your case. Too many unknowns for the speculation you’re asking for. For example, do you admit to the FAA about using recreationally, or not mention it? What exactly was the reason for the medical marijuana card? Do you have any traffic violations or arrests? Etc.

I’m all for hypothetical speculation. It’s fun. But ultimately it’s useless. So the answer to your original post is number 3, ask Dr. Chien. I wouldn’t wait 2 years to just consult, he might tell you there’s no chance and then you could move on. If there’s any chance he will tell you exactly how to proceed.
 
DucksInARow said:
1. Does holding this card at *any* point in time mean straight to HIMS even if its been 2yrs since past use and someone could truthfully answer that question with a "no" since it is part of a record somewhere? Also, if there *were* evidence that the condition was diagnosed to obtain the card, wouldn't that create some equally not good outcomes?
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I don't see this one super explicitly answered yet, but what they're saying is: after 2 years, you can reasonably answer "no" to the "have you used marijuana" type questions (assuming no positive drug tests, arrests, etc etc). But to get a medical marijuana card, whoever is writing it has to find some condition that warrants medical marijuana, and because most people getting them want long-term use, the "prescribers" don't go for short-term conditions. They go for things like fibromyalgia, or chronic recurrent headaches, or chronic unexplained musculoskeletal pain, or anxiety, or whatever.

So two years later, if you've not had any medico-legal complications for it, you don't have to say "I use pot." But you do have to say (for example) "I was diagnosed with chronic recurrent headaches," which the FAA will want to investigate super thoroughly for obvious reasons, and that will reveal the marijuana stuff (in addition to being an expensive / interesting neurological investigation). Just like the marijuana, you can theoretically just lie about that, but if anything happened and the FAA investigated your medical records, they would find the lie.
 
It isn't at all clear to me the likelihood of a MMJ diagnosis/prescription being in a database somewhere. It would depend on who prescribed it, under what conditions. I have no direct experience with it, but I'm thinking there are a lot of MMJ prescriptions out there with a very sparse paper-only trail, if even that.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
It isn't at all clear to me the likelihood of a MMJ diagnosis/prescription being in a database somewhere. It would depend on who prescribed it, under what conditions. I have no direct experience with it, but I'm thinking there are a lot of MMJ prescriptions out there with a very sparse paper-only trail, if even that.
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Depends on the state. Some states have medical cannabis registries with varying degrees of access allowed by federal law enforcement for the purpose of identifying whether gun owners have a medical card, because it's illegal to possess a firearm if you have any cannabis, medical or recreational. At least that's what my friend Kenn Blanchard said in his podcast on the subject. He's worked in federal law enforcement. I'm sure if the DEA accesses those registries the FAA can too.

I have no personal experience with it either, I've no interest in marijuana unless I get terminal cancer, then I plan to do whatever I want.

I think if you get your medical marijuana without complying with a state's registry requirements, you're basically buying illegal pot on the black market.
 
DucksInARow said:
Sounds like that's the course of action. Regarding the contact with him, I'd like to better understand the nature of that relationship in consulting mode. Ie. is there any benefit in this scenario to say, waiting two years to be able to answer no to the substance use when speaking with him in consultative mode?.
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He’s literally the guy to ask that question to; he’ll either tell you wait two years (clean/sober) and get back to me then or here’s what to do during those two years while you’re clean and sober so that when your clean and sober the entire (mmj/ssri/depression) package will be ready for exam time.

He’ll probably advise you take steps to obtain truly randomized proofs of sobriety during the waiting period so there’s documentation to support your assertion.

He may also advise you there is no path forward for your history to be certifiable.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
It isn't at all clear to me the likelihood of a MMJ diagnosis/prescription being in a database somewhere. It would depend on who prescribed it, under what conditions. I have no direct experience with it, but I'm thinking there are a lot of MMJ prescriptions out there with a very sparse paper-only trail, if even that.
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You mean besides the issuance of a state sponsored card stating that you've been authorized to purchase medical marijuana?
 
DucksInARow said:
I'm curious, what exactly are you considering argumentative? Certainly not my intent, but text is a crappy medium for that.

I think in this case, it has been made clear that the path ahead with all the expenses it entails costs substantial money. And it seems like the only possible path forward for someone in this scenario. I'm not sure what the alternative is for someone who wanted to proceed to unlocking a path to a PPL. Am I missing something?
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Maybe I missed perceived.
Flying, even recreationally, is serious business. It takes a sustained focused effort. Much like freestyle rock climbing, flying is not tolerant of mistakes. Experienced pilots die all the time because they take their eye off the ball. We had a prominent local guy with a lot of time, professional cropduster, crash and burn in front of a large audience this summer because he lost focus. If you are still smoking pot as an adult you don’t have the focus that it takes to be be safe pilot. You can get along for a while, maybe, but eventually and sooner, the lack focus will catch up with you. The end result will be bad for all.. ask your self which is more important to you, smoking pot or being a safe pilot. In my opinion, they are mutually exclusive. Honestly, that you even have to put this out as a question tells me a lot. I would not fly with you
 
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An acquaintance of mine felt the need to show me his State of AZ Medical Marijuana card.

looked pretty darned state-ish and official. I would figure if you are a bearer of these kinds of things you will have a justifiable, uphill battle towards any type of pilot medical.

I won’t be a pax in a car with this acquaintance.
 
Morgan3820 said:
The end result will be bad for all.. ask your self which is more important to you, smoking pot or being a safe pilot. In my opinion, they are mutually exclusive. Honestly, that you even have to put this out as a question tells me a lot. I would not fly with you
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:yeahthat:

There is a way to smoke dope and fly a plane ... MS 2020 and a set of controllers for your home computer.

In many cases where a medical isn't obtainable I've recommended Sport Pilot but in this case I would not as a Sport Pilot is allowed a passenger and no one should take any chance of flying with someone that's impaired. With enough persuasion I might consider going along with the OP flying an ultralight but then there is the possibility of injury to someone on the ground. If you have a desire to kill yourself then that's another issue that needs to be looked at.

Morgan3820 is correct. Flying takes a lot of training and concentration. You cannot do both ... pick one.
 
DucksInARow said:
I'm not sure why there's an assumption that any flight while under the influence (or even having it in the system) would take place in the scenario hypothesized...
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Read the NTSB reports and you’ll understand why. At it’s core aviation is an honor system that gets taken advantage of all to often; when an impaired pilot takes himself and an aircraft out of the picture,
Most people don’t care. But when an impaired takes a passenger or member of the public with them, we pay the price for that pilot’s choice.
 
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