Chieftain Cost to Operate/Dispatch Rate

Ray Jr

Ray Jr

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Does anyone have experience operating/managing a Chieftain?

A friend of mine is involved in a freight company and they're exploring expanding into regional air freight. It sounds like they get a lot of requests for extremely time sensitive cargo these days.

None of them are into aviation and they're just sending out some feelers.

Basically wondering how much it would cost per hour/mile to haul and how many days a year more or less can you expect it to be up and running.

Loose questions I know but I figured I'd through it out there.
 
Ray Jr said:
Basically wondering how much it would cost per hour/mile to haul and how many days a year more or less can you expect it to be up and running.
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Too much and not enough. Lol

Not a lot of this kind of work around anymore, presumably because it’s not profitable. :(
 
does this include eman's salary? seriously, I can be bought.....
 
No direct experience but I've been doing a ton of twin research lately for potential purchase and either way I look at it you need to fly at least 150 hours a year and plan for an hourly operating cost of around $275 an hour.. basically a $40K/yr when all is said and done just to fly operate the thing.. in my case this would be for an Aztec
 
Tantalum said:
No direct experience but I've been doing a ton of twin research lately for potential purchase and either way I look at it you need to fly at least 150 hours a year and plan for an hourly operating cost of around $275 an hour.. basically a $40K/yr when all is said and done just to fly operate the thing.. in my case this would be for an Aztec
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Interesting. What are you including in that 275?
 
Ray Jr said:
Does anyone have experience operating/managing a Chieftain?

A friend of mine is involved in a freight company and they're exploring expanding into regional air freight. It sounds like they get a lot of requests for extremely time sensitive cargo these days.

None of them are into aviation and they're just sending out some feelers.

Basically wondering how much it would cost per hour/mile to haul and how many days a year more or less can you expect it to be up and running.

Loose questions I know but I figured I'd through it out there.
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I take it their freight operation is ground, not air, correct?

If so, they should consider contacting some Part 135 operators and discuss with them, and possibly sub that work out.

If it becomes popular, then they could explore bringing it in house.

And there are better choices than the aging Piper Chieftain fleet. Again, they should seek out an operator and discuss.
 
They are doing just that I believe. Just that it's my friend and he was asking me because I'm I pilot. Just a casual question.

What are the better choices than navajo would you say?
 
Ray Jr said:
They are doing just that I believe. Just that it's my friend and he was asking me because I'm I pilot. Just a casual question.

What are the better choices than navajo would you say?
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Depends on load, average trip length, how many hours per month, etc.
 
Oh I have that. 750 miles each way, 1000-1500 pounds. Empty return trips. About once a week.
 
Ray Jr said:
o_O
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If it doesn't work out, not profitable, etc, then they just cancel the contract and are not out a bunch of money.

On the other hand, they buy an airplane, insurance, hire a pilot, routine maintenance, etc, etc, etc.............then they are out a bunch of money if it doesn't pan out. And hope during that ownership they don't have to buy an engine or other high ticket item.

It's their choice.
 
Doc Holliday said:
If it doesn't work out, not profitable, etc, then they just cancel the contract and are not out a bunch of money.

On the other hand, they buy an airplane, insurance, hire a pilot, routine maintenance, etc, etc, etc.............then they are out a bunch of money if it doesn't pan out. And hope during that ownership they don't have to buy an engine or other high ticket item.

It's their choice.
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Ray Jr said:
They are doing just that I believe. Just that it's my friend and he was asking me because I'm I pilot. Just a casual question.
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Ray Jr said:
Interesting. What are you including in that 275?
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This is what went into my math.. I keep playing with the numbers to try and justify this somehow haha. The fuel might be lower.. I've been flying this particular plane around 12-13 gph per side but it doesn't hurt to have some buffer built in. I can probably (hopefully?) get gas a little cheaper as well

Annuals, well that's going to vary. Maybe $2K one year and $15K the next.. I sort of just "picked" $7K for that

This would be for an Aztec.

upload_2021-6-22_18-26-42.png
 
Tantalum said:
This is what went into my math..
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Interesting stuff! Was that $2000 for insurance a quoted amount? Seems like a pretty good deal for a piston twin.
 
...now quadruple Tantalum's numbers for a commercial operation?

When I was flying for Ameriflight, they were in the process of dumping their Chieftains. I bet there are a ton with 40K TTAF but "135 compliant" you could get for a song. I think they were concentrating them in Phoenix.

Without knowing the bulk you're trying to carry, I suspect OpEx on something like a Cessna Caravan will beat the OpEx on the piston twin, but the Acquisition and carrying costs may moot the point.

If this is a viable operation, I'd probably try to optimize OpEx over CapEx. If your operation can suffer downtime, parts delays, and the significant quantity of jank that a cargo chieftain represents, then it's probably hard to beat. I wouldn't fly one myself, but hungry twenty-somethings? sure, why not?

The calculus on aviation is too intricate to generalize though. You may have a mission that was perfectly chosen for a specific type. The advice to start with local operators is a good one, as one assumes they've already made the mistakes you're contemplating making, and have refined their operation enough to not lose money very quickly, or at least know where the sharp operational gotchas are. :)

$0.02
 
Ah ya, caravan. Mays well! Floats to
 
Tantalum said:
This is what went into my math.. I keep playing with the numbers to try and justify this somehow haha. The fuel might be lower.. I've been flying this particular plane around 12-13 gph per side but it doesn't hurt to have some buffer built in. I can probably (hopefully?) get gas a little cheaper as well

Annuals, well that's going to vary. Maybe $2K one year and $15K the next.. I sort of just "picked" $7K for that

This would be for an Aztec.

View attachment 97564
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Thanks for sharing! That's actually less than expected for an aztec
 
Tantalum said:
This is what went into my math.. I keep playing with the numbers to try and justify this somehow haha. The fuel might be lower.. I've been flying this particular plane around 12-13 gph per side but it doesn't hurt to have some buffer built in. I can probably (hopefully?) get gas a little cheaper as well

Annuals, well that's going to vary. Maybe $2K one year and $15K the next.. I sort of just "picked" $7K for that

This would be for an Aztec.
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The Chieftain will burn about 40gph. Also, I haven't priced the engines on one in a long time, but I would have to believe $40k per engine to overhaul sounds about right. Add in reserve for the props as well.

And don't forget fuel bladders, the janitrol heaters, de-ice boots, etc, etc.
 
Ray Jr said:
Thanks for sharing! That's actually less than expected for an aztec
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The consensus on an older AvWeb (or was it AOPA?) article on the PA-23 series was about $275/hr.. grain of salt though, as with anything
 
schmookeeg said:
When I was flying for Ameriflight, they were in the process of dumping their Chieftains. I bet there are a ton with 40K TTAF but "135 compliant" you could get for a song. I think they were concentrating them in Phoenix.
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Unless things have changed since I was there, they’re at KBXK. They are a sad and beautiful sight there, all in a row.
 
I'd figure roughly around $500/hr, without pilot wages. And, realistically, even though you mentioned once a week, that really has to work out to a full-time gig (salary-wise) for the pilot. Actually, it sounds like they'd definitely need a 135 certificate, if hauling freight for hire.
As Doc Holliday suggests, contacting an already-existent Part 135 operator would be the way to go.
 
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Once a week flight means you have to keep your acquisition costs down as that is not enough flying to support a huge capital investment, such as a Caravan. For that matter, one flight a week will not support the overhead of maintaining a 135 certificate, unless you have a semi-retired pilot willing to get a single pilot/single plane certificate and be willing to just fly once a week. The reality is that once a week revenue flight is not a sustainable business model. Subcontract it.
 
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