Cherokee 180 to Arrow 180

WhichWays_Up

WhichWays_Up

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WhichWays_Up
Hi!

I'm Tim! Long time looker, first time poster. I'm on a few different forums looking for any information from Arrow owners.

Currently own a 69' 180 Cherokee and she's been a great airframe. Trips are usually around 700km (380NM). I usually true at 110 knots, 120 if I point the nose down in a tailwind. That's at 6500-7500 feet. 8-10 GPH. No autopilot, vacuum instruments, Narco radio stack. But clean as a pin. 6700TT.

I have the chance to get into a 68' Arrow 180. Better equipped as far as avionics, 3400TT, never a trainer (we don't have complex endorsement here), two owners, great logs. I know in all sense, an Arrow is a retracted gear, constant speed prop, fuel injected Cherokee.

I'm curious if the speed and range gains are worth the investment? If there is any. Has anyone done this "upgrade"? I do have around 30 hours in a rented Arrow 200, but not a 180. Insurance quotes are obviously more, but not eye watering like I was expecting. My AME (A&P in the States?) pointed out the obvious. Gear checks at annual, another Spar AD to comply with, expensive parts if something does fail, ect... He's a Piper wizard, and owns a Turbo Arrow himself. One of a few in the country that can correctly rig a Comanches gear

So, long question, short. Has anyone done this upgrade. Are the speeds and extra range worth your investment?

I appreciate your time and knowledge!

Thanks.
 
NO, not worth the investment. Keep your current plane, it's a known known. With the money you're sure to spend getting the new bird up to speed with your mechanic you could make a big dent in new avionics.

What is the time savings on your typical 380NM trip? (Answer: not much)
 
No it is not. The 180hp cruises around 130kts. The difference in speed when it comes to traveling from A to B is a matter of a couple minutes… seriously.

The near negligible difference in speed is not worth the added operating expenses.
 
Ya, I'm beginning to realize that the more I ask other pilots :crazy:

Even my AME was suggesting to add speed mods and a Cruise prop. Current prop is a Climb prop, aircraft used to be based out near the Rockies.

The Cherokee is paid for and cheap overall to annual and insure. Saying "positive rate, gear up" and feeling the acceleration of the Arrow II is wonderful, but possibly not worth the price of membership.

Maybe I should get my multi and buy a Seneca just to go broke ..... I mean fast.......er :biggrin:
 
I own a 68 Arrow and love it. I regularly make 471NM trips to a vacation home we have. Sweet spot for speed is 7000' density altitude. I get 140 KTAS rich of peak and 130 KTAS lean of peak, losing a few knots above and below that DA. I suspect mine is a few knots faster than the typical 180HP Arrow. Having said that, I don't see much advantage with the distance you or I typically travel. I'd be hard pressed to make the switch from a plane you know. Having said that, if the better avionics in the Arrow are that much better, it could be worth that first expensive annual that you typically experience with a new plane. I'd certainly first check on upgrading your avionics in your Cherokee if that's important to your flying. Obviously a thorough prebuy and perhaps a flight in it, if possible, could help make the decision. Being injected with balanced stock injectors also allows me to land with larger fuel reserves by operating lean of peak. It also allows me to cut out a fuel stop on some flights.
 
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As an Arrow owner - mine is a '69 PA28R-200 - I would say no. Now.... if it were an arrow with the 200 HP.... Nah, still no. Yeah, I get around 150 tas around 6k' - 7k', but the difference in speed just isn't worth it for you coming from an already capable cross country aircraft. Like someone else said - maybe put the money into your current aircraft and keep enjoying!

Buy yeah, you are not going to be able to put the wheels up and (hopefully) down, so that's a downside... :D
 
I will add that I totaled up our maintenance costs on our plane, and I estimate about 1/3 - 1/4of all Mx costs is directly related to the retract gear system (hydraulic actuators, pump, etc).

When you are thinking about “saving time” for trip with this upgrade, don’t forget to subtract the amount of additional time (and $$$$) the Retractable gear airplane will spend in maintenance shop.
 
The extra speed will be appreciated when you have headwinds.

A 40 knot headwind puts you at 70 knot GS, or slowly that traffic on the highway.
 
ChopAndDrop said:
don’t forget to subtract the amount of additional time (and $$$$) the Retractable gear airplane will spend in maintenance shop.
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How about insurance costs, too? I understand having a retract about doubles the cost, depending on pilot age and hours (and could go north of there).

I have a 180hp Warrior and frequently wish it went faster but the cost-per-extra-knot makes it unwise economically, from maintenance to insurance costs, every time I stop and check. Being in central TX I often go to either coast or WI/MN in a day. A long day but not terrible. If I really want to make it more comfortable we spend a night somewhere.

All that said, most of us fly for the fun rather than the economics (people don’t get big fishing boats because the fish they catch pay for the investment). If flying a retract would add considerably to the fun factor, then go for it.
 
Yeah, Insurance has gotten a lot more difficult. We had one underwriter that flat out refused to add a new pilot to our airplane partnership because they had no previous retract time. Wouldn’t allow dual- flight with a CFI for anything, just flat-out stonewalled us.
It was a real mess. We had to switch insurance companies midcycle at great expense in order to add a new pilot to our policy so they can get transition training and eventually fly the plane.
 
I rent an Arrow II with 200 HP and get 130-135 KTAS just under 10gph. What are the power setting you guy use to get 140+ KTAS? 2400RPM and FT?
 
My advice about the upgrade is to follow the mission. If the Arrow has more range, useful load and better avionics that you will regularly use in your flights then it makes more sense. Will it allow to fly more missions that would have been canceled in the Cherokee? But if not, you could make the plane you have now even better with that extra $$.
 
farangutan said:
I rent an Arrow II with 200 HP and get 130-135 KTAS just under 10gph. What are the power setting you guy use to get 140+ KTAS? 2400RPM and FT?
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I use 24" 2400 rpm until I climb too high to maintain 24" then it's just wide open. Can't see the MP in this pic, but here's the tas of 172 mph which is around 150 ktas.

1719500196484.png
 
I will try that next time, thanks for the tip!
 
I really felt this post. I absolutely love Arrows and really thought about getting one. I looked, but anything with reasonable hours and minimal/no trainer history were pricier than I had hoped due to the market going nuts. I ended up with a 1966 Cherokee 180C, with the intent of using that to work through my commercial/CFI and build some hours, then maybe get an Arrow. Now that I've spent some time flying her and doing to self-assessment about the flying I actually do (rather than imagining I will do), I've concluded that it makes way more sense to upgrade the Cherokee, especially since insurance companies seem to be in a hate-spiral for retracts, especially for folks who are older. I'm young enough yet that insurance isn't that big of a concern, but I would hate to slowly build a perfect panel and plane over the years, just to lose it to the inability to get insurance. I agree with the consensus here that those extra knots of speed will be outrageously expensive for what you're actually getting. Personally, I plan to just rent Arrows occasionally for fun and be buried with my Cherokee in a Viking funeral.
 
SoonerAviator said:
Why do you have it displaying MPH rather than Knots?
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Because the analog ASI is in mph and everything in the POH and placards for this airplane is in mph... It's a 1969..... so old that knots hadn't even been invented yet :D (damn my wife will kill me for this, she was born in the same year)
 
It has been many years since I flew rental Cherokee 180 and Arrow 180's.

My main issue was that the Arrow had less useful load with full fuel, and when I reduced the fuel, the extra range was gone.

The speed advantage cost a lot, the dollars per mile came to much more, as the FBO knew the additional cost of maintenance, and properly priced that in. Prop and gear maintenance are not cheap, and as others have pointed out, the insurance companies have a clear idea of the cost of failures of gear or pilot in retractables.

My trips were usually 6 to 7 hours, airport to airport, and if the Arrow cut that by half an hour, still the whole day used up.

One arrival with 2 green lights sealed the deal. Yes, the left main was down, but the initial go around, followed by 2 more for inspection by non mechanics on the ground, ate up more time than it saved. There was no mechanic available to replace the bad micro switch, so flew back home, and landed with 2 green lights. One of the times that it is nice to be flying a rental. Their problem if I have 2 gear down when I land.

After I completed my Commercial and Instrument, I went back to fixed gear for my long distance travel, usually arriving before supper time.
 
Deelee said:
Because the analog ASI is in mph and everything in the POH and placards for this airplane is in mph... It's a 1969..... so old that knots hadn't even been invented yet :D (damn my wife will kill me for this, she was born in the same year)
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Same. I maneuver in MPH but navigate in knots. So IAS and CAS are displayed as MPH, while TAS and GS are displayed as knots.
 
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Since we're spending your money, I vote for the Arrow. Speed is speed. Building complex and retract time will be handy if you win the lottery and want to step up to a bonanza, twin, etc.
 
Deelee said:
Because the analog ASI is in mph and everything in the POH and placards for this airplane is in mph... It's a 1969..... so old that knots hadn't even been invented yet :D (damn my wife will kill me for this, she was born in the same year)
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I see it now. I initially thought the ASI was the reason but I zoomed in and saw "Knots" which begged the question. Should have noticed the outer ring said MPH, lol.
 
Once you have an aircraft you can trust and you've got running the way you like it, it's a known quantity. There's A LOT of value in that.
Moving to a new aircraft means starting from scratch and rediscovering any issues it has, getting it up to your personal standards and then any extras you want to throw in it.
That costs time, money and headache.

If you have a Cherokee 180 that you're happy with and your mission hasn't changed, my vote is stick with the Cherokee. While I love my Arrow I recognize it won't deliver that much more capability to really improve your flying experience*.


*unless you really get an unreasonable, irrational amount of enjoyment out of hitting the gear lever and retracting it on takeoff, which I'll admit, I absolutely do :cool:
 
This is one scenario which I think "dance with the one who brung ya" is the correct answer. Not enough speed difference to make any meaningful difference on your typical flights. Likely a not-insignificant amount of extra expense and down time due to the retract as well over what you currently have. No major benefit in load carrying ability, either. If you were considering going to a Comanche 250/260, this is a different discussion.
 
Thank you so much everyone for the replies! I'm too lazy to quote every single one lol.

Seems kinda 80/20. 80% stick with the Cherokee. 20% for the Arrow.

A new contract has me taking commercial flights that are around 780nm. Most of that spent over Lake Huron and Superior (SW Ontario to Winnipeg). I've done it twice in the 180D, and it makes for a long day, following the shoreline aaalllll the way around, instead of a straight crossing. I thought maybe the extra speed of another single made sense ........... It doesn't :confused:

After talking with both my AME and my CFI who trained me and is a good friend, they think an Arrow isn't worth the upgrade AT ALL. And that's 35+ years of experience talking. They're pushing me towards multi engines because of the water crossing. I'm not sure I want that expense.

For now, I think I'm just trying to find a reason for something new, even though what I have is a perfect fit. I have no problem taking the commercial flights, and using the Cherokee for the shorter, flights.

Especially in the winter :biggrin:

Thanks again y'all.
 
Deelee said:
I use 24" 2400 rpm until I climb too high to maintain 24" then it's just wide open. Can't see the MP in this pic, but here's the tas of 172 mph which is around 150 ktas.

View attachment 130662
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How do you like that TruTrak? I've been eyeing it and the Trio as well. The GFC 500 is beautiful too, but expensive when compared to those two guys lol
 
WhichWays_Up said:
Thank you so much everyone for the replies! I'm too lazy to quote every single one lol.

Seems kinda 80/20. 80% stick with the Cherokee. 20% for the Arrow.

A new contract has me taking commercial flights that are around 780nm. Most of that spent over Lake Huron and Superior (SW Ontario to Winnipeg). I've done it twice in the 180D, and it makes for a long day, following the shoreline aaalllll the way around, instead of a straight crossing. I thought maybe the extra speed of another single made sense ........... It doesn't :confused:

After talking with both my AME and my CFI who trained me and is a good friend, they think an Arrow isn't worth the upgrade AT ALL. And that's 35+ years of experience talking. They're pushing me towards multi engines because of the water crossing. I'm not sure I want that expense.

For now, I think I'm just trying to find a reason for something new, even though what I have is a perfect fit. I have no problem taking the commercial flights, and using the Cherokee for the shorter, flights.

Especially in the winter :biggrin:

Thanks again y'all.
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Bonanza, Mooney, or Cirri.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Bonanza, Mooney, or Cirri.
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I knew that comment was coming eventually. I could have asked for a good meatloaf recipe and got this reply :D

Bonanza - Tall torso, even with trimmed foam seats, I'm not comfortable enough to want to own one. Been in a V35 and an A36. Not sure if there is any difference with other models.

Mooney - Hard to come by up here without major tubular corrosion, in my price range. I'd have to import an dry state American one $$$$$$$$$$$

Cirrus - .....................:confused:

I appreciate the reply though!
 
Outside of speed mods, "better-than-book" speeds are probably calibration error. The only way to know your real TAS is to use the 3-way GPS method.
 
My 180 Arrow with a scimitar prop cruised at 140kts at 7-8k and cost differential was a couple of hundred bucks vs my 160 HP Warrior that I owned at the same time. It had more useful load and swinging the gear and constant speed prop made it more efficient and made the cost difference a push…I liked the 25knts of speed and the way it flew…best airplane I have ever owned in so many different ways.
 
I'm real happy with my 180D. About as simple & boring as possible, everyone knows how to fix it, parts aren't a problem, the classic bullet-proof Lycoming O-360. Over the years, some upgrades. New interior, 2 G5/175, I'll never give up the SL30 (talk about bullet-proof!), all LED lights, some speed mods (really - why bother putting speed mods on a flying brick?). The CDI connected to the SL30 is dead, so I may put a new CDI in later this year. Or not. I really need to finish remodeling the kitchen.
 
WhichWays_Up said:
How do you like that TruTrak? I've been eyeing it and the Trio as well. The GFC 500 is beautiful too, but expensive when compared to those two guys lol
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I like it ok enough. It wouldn't be my first choice for an autopilot, if I were starting from scratch. But it couples well to the 650xi and the Aspen. It's great for cross country flying, for sure. Holds the magenta line or a heading like a champ. Flies GPS-based approaches very nicely, too... won't couple to fly an ILS approach unfortunately. Only issue we had with it is the servo on the port wing crapped out and we had to have it replaced. But the replacement cost wasn't terrible, if I remember correctly. So yeah, it's a solid option if you don't want to spend the money for the GFC
 
WhichWays_Up said:
I knew that comment was coming eventually. I could have asked for a good meatloaf recipe and got this reply :D

Bonanza - Tall torso, even with trimmed foam seats, I'm not comfortable enough to want to own one. Been in a V35 and an A36. Not sure if there is any difference with other models.

Mooney - Hard to come by up here without major tubular corrosion, in my price range. I'd have to import an dry state American one $$$$$$$$$$$

Cirrus - .....................:confused:

I appreciate the reply though!
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Dakota? A few more kt, much more load carrying, and can climb high enough to make the trips over water less of a factor. And fixed gear. Of course, they aren’t cheap either…

While I wouldn’t trade my Warrior for one, I’ve often thought that’d be a serious option if I needed to replace it.
 
WhichWays_Up said:
How do you like that TruTrak? I've been eyeing it and the Trio as well. The GFC 500 is beautiful too, but expensive when compared to those two guys lol
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I reached out to Trio to find a shop to install in my Arrow. The shop was only about $3k more for the GFC500 installed (although I already have dual G5s).
 
Llewtrah381 said:
Dakota? A few more kt, much more load carrying, and can climb high enough to make the trips over water less of a factor. And fixed gear. Of course, they aren’t cheap either…

While I wouldn’t trade my Warrior for one, I’ve often thought that’d be a serious option if I needed to replace it.
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I actually looked at an older Cherokee 235. 2 years older than my 180. Was a nice aircraft actually. But the numbers didn't add up at the time, and I actually started eyeing Cherokee 6s with the 260.

Life/work keeps slowing down the hunt. The Arrow in question landed (no pun intended) right in my back yard so to speak. Local airport, a few hangers down from me. That's why I took interest. Easy deal and easy delivery :biggrin:

Thanks for your reply!
 
murphey said:
I'm real happy with my 180D. About as simple & boring as possible, everyone knows how to fix it, parts aren't a problem, the classic bullet-proof Lycoming O-360. Over the years, some upgrades. New interior, 2 G5/175, I'll never give up the SL30 (talk about bullet-proof!), all LED lights, some speed mods (really - why bother putting speed mods on a flying brick?). The CDI connected to the SL30 is dead, so I may put a new CDI in later this year. Or not. I really need to finish remodeling the kitchen.
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Mines a 69' 180D as well. I can't complain at all with annuals and extra costs. It needs an interior but that's cosmetics, and doesn't effect its safety.

An aluminum tube with bricks for wings is usually how I describe it :cornut:

But with a 100% dispatch reliability!
 
Jim, I did that exact trade up seven years ago. A 1967 Cherokee 180 to a 1968 Arrow. The Cherokee 180 was a fine airplane, andIMG_9312.jpeg

it’s still flying, but here’s what I was faced with: an engine with 2200 hours, although the compressions were still good and outdated avionics. Paint and upholstery needed some attention.
The arrow had a WAAS GPS auto pilot and superior audio panel. Much better paint and a leather interior. So it was really a trade for a plane that needed some investment to one that just needed some TLC.
I regret it? No not at all. If you have this decision to make, I wouldn’t make it based on speed and performance. Both planes are close in specs and both are great planes. If you do consider the move, just make sure you get a great pre-purchase inspection. And you’ll be fine.
Oh, and yeah, there is that cool factor with the gear up cruising along!
 
Tom Hurley said:
Oh, and yeah, there is that cool factor with the gear up cruising along!
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plus the added benefit of eventually joining the gear up club. :-/

(there are those that have and ....)
 
Unless of course, as mine does, the auto gear extend feature remains in place. Throttle down, speed down, first yells at you then the gear comes down. Over 1000 landings so far and haven’t needed it. But we do check it during annual.
 
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