Checkrides cost how much? Really?

[Aceman]

$600 cash for my PPL-G

 

[Doc Holliday]

Because he’s not flying a jet.

Curious, what do you feel a DPE's time is worth?

 

[Half Fast]

A contract jet pilot can make $1500 a day plus expenses when on the road.

So why would DPE do it for a third of that or less?

Irrelevant.

If a lawyer gets a part-time weekend job at the car wash, should he be paid his hourly attorney fee for washing cars?

A jet pilot might decide his time is too valuable to do DPE work but that doesn't make the DPE job worth more.

 

[Half Fast]

Curious, what do you feel a DPE's time is worth?

20% more than a CFI rate, plus a nice 15% tip if I pass.

 

[Doc Holliday]

20% more than a CFI rate, plus a nice 15% tip if I pass.

I have a friend that flies contract and is a DPE. If he blocks his schedule for a checkride, he possibly loses out on any contract flying for that day. His contract pay is $1800/day.

Plus, most DPE's are far more experienced than your local CFI's. Wouldn't you agree that their experience, coupled with what's necessary to qualify and remain qualified as a DPE should garner more than just barely above a local CFI pay rate?

 

[Doc Holliday]

Irrelevant.

If a lawyer gets a part-time weekend job at the car wash, should he be paid his hourly attorney fee for washing cars?

A jet pilot might decide his time is too valuable to do DPE work but that doesn't make the DPE job worth more.

Even more irrelevant.

A DPE is more than some guy working at a car wash.

 

[Half Fast]

Even more irrelevant.

A DPE is more than some guy working at a car wash.

Completely missing the point.

Being over qualified does not justify being overpaid. The job is worth whatever it's worth, regardless of the examiner's qualifications.

 

[Half Fast]

Wouldn't you agree that their experience, coupled with what's necessary to qualify and remain qualified as a DPE should garner more than just barely above a local CFI pay rate?

No, I wouldn't.

 

[Doc Holliday]

No, I wouldn't.

I hear ya. I think that engineers in the defense industry should only make about 20% above the front desk receptionist pay.

As you said "Being over qualified does not justify being overpaid."

 

[SkyChaser]

I hear ya. I think that engineers in the defense industry should only make about 20% above the front desk receptionist pay.

As you said "Being over qualified does not justify being overpaid."

If the engineer is hired as a front desk receptionist, I don't think they should pay him any more than they would any other front desk receptionist...because he's not being hired for his engineering prowess, but for his phone-answering skills. I didn't hire the DPE for my checkride to show me how to fly a 747, even though that was his "day job", but to do a checkride for a small GA plane. Maybe his higher skills would warrant a small premium, just like you might pay an engineer more for being able to answer customers question in more detail in a receptionist position, but the DPE's "day job" should have little to no relevance on his checkride rate. If the DPE doesn't want to take the paycut to work a different job, then get out of DPE-ing and just fly jets.

 

[Doc Holliday]

If the engineer is hired as a front desk receptionist, I don't think they should pay him any more than they would any other front desk receptionist...because he's not being hired for his engineering prowess, but for his phone-answering skills. I didn't hire the DPE for my checkride to show me how to fly a 747, even though that was his "day job", but to do a checkride for a small GA plane. Maybe his higher skills would warrant a small premium, just like you might pay an engineer more for being able to answer customers question in more detail in a receptionist position, but the DPE's "day job" should have little to no relevance on his checkride rate. If the DPE doesn't want to take the paycut to work a different job, then get out of DPE-ing and just fly jets.

So what is the requirements to obtain a DPE position?

 

[SkyChaser]

So what is the requirements to obtain a DPE position?

If you want to know, it's all upthread somewhere. I'm not going to rewrite it. Yes, it's a skilled position. I think they deserve to be paid. But being a DPE doesn't require you to have a jet rating or even a day job, so what they get paid to fly jets is rather immaterial to the discussion. It's called opportunity cost, which is something that should be considered before engaging in any activity. For example, the opportunity cost of me sitting here writing this post in reply to you is my laundry not being folded. But you shouldn't have to fold my laundry just because I decided to reply to you instead of folding it myself.

 

[Doc Holliday]

If you want to know, it's all upthread somewhere. I'm not going to rewrite it. Yes, it's a skilled position. I think they deserve to be paid.

Thanks for acknowledging that

But being a DPE doesn't require you to have a jet rating or even a day job, so what they get paid to fly jets is rather immaterial to the discussion.

Not really. The majority of DPE’s are highly rated and skilled aviators. The FAA is utilizing their experience. Experience coupled to advanced ratings equal higher pay.

 

[SkyChaser]

Not really. The majority of DPE’s are highly rated and skilled aviators. The FAA is utilizing their experience. Experience coupled to advanced ratings equal higher pay.

How is the FAA utilizing their experience in jets to test private pilots in single engine spam cans and why should having a rating for a totally different type of plane command higher prices?

 

[Doc Holliday]

It’s based upon experience. Would you not agree a ATP rated pilot has more real world experience than a 300 hour CFI?

 

[jbarrass]

True, and supply/demand comes into play here.

If the job were paid more than it's worth, given the training and experience requirements, we would expect to see people being certified.to collect that excessive pay. This would create competition, which in turn would lower the market rate.

So, why aren't we seeing this happen?

True. But market pricing (which it should be) is affected significantly by barriers to entry. In this case, on the supply side, there are many more fully qualified candidates that want to be DPE than the Government will certify. At least in our area.

Around here, I hear more complaints about availability (months) than price (pushing 1K).

 

[Half Fast]

I think that engineers in the defense industry should only make about 20% above the front desk receptionist pay.

If the engineer is doing a receptionist job, that's what the engineer should be paid.

A DPE doing a PP checkride is determining whether the candidate meets the PP standards. This doesn't require significantly more skill than teaching those same standards.

 

[Half Fast]

Would you not agree a ATP rated pilot has more real world experience than a 300 hour CFI?

Yes, he has more experience. So what? That experience is not necessary for determining whether the PP candidate is qualified to fly a 172.

If the ATP rated pilot with 3000 hours of jet experience trains a newbie, should he be paid significantly more than any other CFI?

If a F1 driver takes a job as an examiner at the state driver's license office, should he get paid $1M for each exam because he won Monaco? Of course not. The experience and skill, while impressive, is irrelevant and unneccessary for the job.

 

[Half Fast]

True. But market pricing (which it should be) is affected significantly by barriers to entry. In this case, on the supply side, there are many more fully qualified candidates that want to be DPE than the Government will certify. At least in our area.

Around here, I hear more complaints about availability (months) than price (pushing 1K).

DING DING DING! Winner!

The market is being dramatically inflated by the FAA. Market manipulation is not the mission of the FAA; anyone who is qualified to be a DPE should be able to obtain that cert, but unfortunately that's not the case.

 

[Doc Holliday]

DING DING DING! Winner!

The market is being dramatically inflated by the FAA. Market manipulation is not the mission of the FAA; anyone who is qualified to be a DPE should be able to obtain that cert, but unfortunately that's not the case.

So the FAA should hand out DPE designations to anyone who wants one?

 

[Doc Holliday]

Yes, he has more experience. So what? That experience is not necessary for determining whether the PP candidate is qualified to fly a 172.

If the ATP rated pilot with 3000 hours of jet experience trains a newbie, should he be paid significantly more than any other CFI?

If a F1 driver takes a job as an examiner at the state driver's license office, should he get paid $1M for each exam because he won Monaco? Of course not. The experience and skill, while impressive, is irrelevant and unneccessary for the job.

Would you consider yourself qualified to administer a private pilot exam?

 

[Doc Holliday]

If the engineer is doing a receptionist job, that's what the engineer should be paid.

A DPE doing a PP checkride is determining whether the candidate meets the PP standards. This doesn't require significantly more skill than teaching those same standards.

But you could teach the receptionist how to use the engineering programs.

Using a computer is part of her job.

 

[Half Fast]

So the FAA should hand out DPE designations to anyone who wants one?

No, they should hand them out to anyone who qualifies for one, just like they do with PP certs, CP certs, etc.

 

[Half Fast]

Would you consider yourself qualified to administer a private pilot exam?

No, but what does that have to do with anything in this discussion?

 

[Half Fast]

But you could teach the receptionist how to use the engineering programs.

Using a computer is part of her job.

If that were feasibile (it's not), and if the receptionist would still work for receptionist wages despite those qualifications, I guarantee you that Lockheed, Boeing, Raytheon, etc., would be doing exactly that (they aren't).

 

[Doc Holliday]

No, they should hand them out to anyone who qualifies for one, just like they do with PP certs, CP certs, etc.

And who will provide the oversight for all these newfound DPE’s?

Or should they just give out certificates with no oversight?

 

[Doc Holliday]

No, but what does that have to do with anything in this discussion?

It has to do with understanding what is involved in certification. You and many others obviously don’t have that understanding.

 

[jbarrass]

And who will provide the oversight for all these newfound DPE’s?

Or should they just give out certificates with no oversight?

The FAA.

The number of exams isn't changing and the FAA should be overseeing the quality of the exam.

Just more DPE availability, So shorter waits and less cost.

 

[Doc Holliday]

The FAA.

The number of exams isn't changing and the FAA should be overseeing the quality of the exam.

Just more DPE availability, So shorter waits and less cost.

Ok.

More availability means more DPE’s.

More oversight requires more inspectors. So far Congress doesn’t seem concerned about the number, and lack thereof qualified inspectors.

Without budget approval from Congress the DOT and the FAA cannot arbitrarily hire more inspectors.

So here we are, back where we started.

 

[2-Bit Speed]

Even more irrelevant.

A DPE is more than some guy working at a car wash.

Not if the DPE is the "Some guy working at a car wash." Then he's some guy working at a car wash and should be paid according to the car-washing duties he is fulfilling, not according to some credential he may or may not have which has no relevance to car washing.

 

[Pinecone]

Hmm, I have been wondering about all the DPE requiring cash only for payment.

I wonder if the IRS knows this?

 

[TCABM]

Hmm, I have been wondering about all the DPE requiring cash only for payment.

I wonder if the IRS knows this?

Does the IRS prohibit all cash businesses?

Additionally, depending on deposits, there are financial institution reporting requirements related to cash deposit thresholds.

 

[RyanB]

Hmm, I have been wondering about all the DPE requiring cash only for payment.

I wonder if the IRS knows this?

That’s pretty much standard though. Cashier’s check or cash.

 

[RussR]

Hmm, I have been wondering about all the DPE requiring cash only for payment.

I wonder if the IRS knows this?

How else would it work?

Venmo/Cashapp would be a good substitute I'd think, I bet some DPEs are using that. But I don't know for certain.

The other choices aren't great.

Checks? Few people ever use checks anymore. Plus, how does the DPE know they're not going to bounce?

Credit Card? They face defending a dispute if the applicant fails and doesn't think it was warranted.

Cashier's Checks are a possibility, but they are easily forged these days.

Money orders? No idea what the current status is with those.

Cash (or possibly Venmo/etc.) is really just the best option to protect the DPE.

 

[Ryan F.]

I find the cash discussion understandable, but a bit amusing. I'm sure it must be entertaining to conjure up these involved scenarios for why DPEs tend to standardize on cash payments, but it's really quite simple - cash doesn't carry any credit card fees, cash doesn't bounce, cash is quick (try regularly accepting payments via Venmo/Cash App/etc. at the start of a practical test - there are more glitches/issues with this than some may realize), and yes, cash indisputably stays in the examiner's pocket after the test has been provided, regardless of the results. I report my fairly limited pilot examiner income on my taxes - so do the many pilot examiners whom I consider to be friends and colleagues in the business. It really isn't any more complicated than that.

 

[2-Bit Speed]

I find the cash discussion understandable, but a bit amusing. I'm sure it must be entertaining to conjure up these involved scenarios for why DPEs tend to standardize on cash payments, but it's really quite simple - cash doesn't carry any credit card fees, cash doesn't bounce, cash is quick (try regularly accepting payments via Venmo/Cash App/etc. at the start of a practical test - there are more glitches/issues with this than some may realize), and yes, cash indisputably stays in the examiner's pocket after the test has been provided, regardless of the results. I report my fairly limited pilot examiner income on my taxes - so do the many pilot examiners whom I consider to be friends and colleagues in the business. It really isn't any more complicated than that.

Quit ruining my conspiracy theories!!!

 

[Kritchlow]

I find the cash discussion understandable, but a bit amusing. I'm sure it must be entertaining to conjure up these involved scenarios for why DPEs tend to standardize on cash payments, but it's really quite simple - cash doesn't carry any credit card fees, cash doesn't bounce, cash is quick (try regularly accepting payments via Venmo/Cash App/etc. at the start of a practical test - there are more glitches/issues with this than some may realize), and yes, cash indisputably stays in the examiner's pocket after the test has been provided, regardless of the results. I report my fairly limited pilot examiner income on my taxes - so do the many pilot examiners whom I consider to be friends and colleagues in the business. It really isn't any more complicated than that.

That’s true with any business.