Checklist usage

HF17

HF17

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HF17
Do you guys normally complete the before landing checklist on downwind while staying in the traffic pattern? The airplane flying handbook says to complete all before landing checks on downwind. I normally have the before landing checklist complete before entering the pattern, so I can focus on looking outside. I have my CFI checkride soon and I’m teaching the examiner normal takeoffs and landings, and I don’t want to screw up checklist usage.


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Like you, When flying myself, I have many items done by flow and written checklist before entering the pattern.

Once established in the pattern, it’s verbal and flow to make sure key items are done (altitudes, speeds, flaps, GUMPS, radio calls, etc.)

For my CFI initial ride, the first landing he did and I coached. This included a reminder to use the checklist as we approached the pattern. Then it was verbal cues as needed.
 
I normally tell my students I want the landing checklist completed by mid field down wind. If they forget, it still gives them Time to complete it if I prompt them.
 
My practice, developed from flying two pilot airplanes, is to call for the landing checklist after dropping the gear. First item on landing checklist is then verification that the gear is down and locked.. When in the traffic pattern, that is around midfield on the downwind.

If approaching a towered airport, it is usually around the time I want to descend below 1000’ AGLz
 
You are going to have to decide what you are going to teach and what backs up what you are teaching. The AFH is a good start. I think the answer depends somewhat on what you are flying. if you have a complex checklist then performing it while approaching the airport may make sense. If you are flying something like a Champ where the check list is 1. We still have enough Fuel. 2 Turn on the Carb heat then downwind makes sense.

Also since as a CFI you going to spend a lot of time going around the pattern, how are you going to instill the checklist muscle memory into your student? Another point for doing it on the downwind, that way you always do the check list at the same location whether going around the pattern or entering from somewhere else.

In some aircraft especially with complex check lists I like the concept of a critical checklist, i.e. what is it you absolutely positively don't want to forget, Carb Heat, Cowl Flaps, Fuel Pump, Mixture, Prop, even Fuel on the correct tank 99 times out of 100 if forgotten will still result in great safe landing, But forgetting to put the Gear down may still be a good safe landing, but not a great one. This is where the double Gump checklist comes in.

Normal downwind landing checklist (I Like CCGUMP if it applies)
Carb Heat
Cowl Flaps.
Gas
Undercarriage
Mixture
Prop

Then after that you perform the Critical CCGUMP list on base and final
Check Gear Down (indicator)
Check Again (lever)
Gear is Down (can you see the wheels)
Undercarriage is down
Make sure the Gear is Down
Put the Gear down

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
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You’ll also run into checklists that are a little cumbersome, and if you do the “Before Landing” checklist after extending the gear, as many do, you’ll end up extending the checklist further into the pattern. You’ll have to find a way to make it work, hopefully without disrupting normal habit patterns…maybe complete most of it by flow, so that the checklist is just a quick “check” list after the gear is extended at the normal time.

Or maybe rearrange the checklist into a more useful format. If you do that, just be sure you can justify the changes to whomever may have the authority to question them. ;)
 
brcase said:
I like the concept of a critical checklist, i.e. what is it you absolutely positively don't want to forget,
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+100! There's one thing (and only one that I know of) on the checklist where if you screw it up, you're guaranteed to crash: put the gear handle down. As you said - you can screw up just about everything else most of the time.

Checklist, plus the critical item check is ideal.

--Tony

PS - I just hate it that they took out the complex requirement for the commercial tickets, for this very reason.
 
MauleSkinner said:
You’ll also run into checklists that are a little cumbersome, and if you do the “Before Landing” checklist after extending the gear, as many do, you’ll end up extending the checklist further into the pattern. You’ll have to find a way to make it work, hopefully without disrupting normal habit patterns…maybe complete most of it by flow, so that the checklist is just a quick “check” list after the gear is extended at the normal time.

Or maybe rearrange the checklist into a more useful format. If you do that, just be sure you can justify the changes to whomever may have the authority to question them. ;)
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those cumbersome checklists are what has always caused problems for me....and I strongly feel like a lot of the time (maybe most?) they cause more harm than good. I often feel a little rattled when I feel like I'm in a position where I MUST use the checklist, such as a checkride or checkout. Just when I'm at perhaps the most busy and critical time of the flight...in the pattern, when I should have my eyes out looking for traffic and should keep my mind clear to do a good flow check and then do a follow-up critical check on final...that is not a great time to fumble to find the before landing portion on the list and then to read each item, working hard to keep my place and not skip a line. This is especially true for a lot of those generic store-bought card type lists and for the ones in the Cessna manual that are just riddled with excessive words and excessive items.
 
When my wife was going for her private, we taped a quick "before landing check" on the door post.

It helps to have some sort of checklist or flow check (even if it's just GUMPS) prior to landing. On slicker planes, you often need to start it further out, getting the thing slowed down and down. Some are less forgiving than others. My gear and flap speed is only 87 knots. This means I can't use the gear as a speed brake like some other planes. Fortunately, closing the throttle and hauling back is a pretty quick slow own in my plane. Still it works better if you can reduce power further out from the airport.

There are some definite other things in my plane (other than making sure the rollers are down). While it won't matter much on approach, attempting to go around on the aux tanks can (and has in the past) killed people.
 
I've gotten in the habit of running my Before Landing checklist about 5 miles out in my Sky Arrow, as much as 10 miles out in faster planes.

To be honest, the checklist for my Sky Arrow is just 1) Seat Belts - FASTENED, 2) Boost Pump - ON, and 3) Brakes - CHECKED. And that's really just two, since belts stay fastened anyway.
 
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IMHO, it's important to understand what type of approach to airport you are doing. Keeping it VFR & flying a simple, single engine fixed gear bird. ...

If you're doing pattern work, doing the checklist at the same point in the pattern is a good way to establish memory muscle. On downwind after TOC and before throttling back is time of least workload - good time to do checklist. I think it also good to verbalize the checklist every time, either GUMPS or written checklist.

If I am on a 45 for downwind, I certainly don't want to wait till I am on downwind before beginning my landing checklist. Usually do that a few miles out.

I am based at a controlled airfield and quite often I get straight in clearances. I'll typically keep up cruise speed until about 3 miles out. I'll do my landing checklist as a precursor to slowing to approach speed.

YMMV
 
to my earlier point, I think that is the brilliant way to do it....run the list 5-10 miles out
except that there's always something it seems that you will check and not do then....pushing props full forward for example...so you'll skip that.... then for the point of the wrote check list exercise, it "might" get skipped.
To me it's a bit of a redundant point though, kinda like your seat belts.
but then if you are approaching the field for touch and goes, what to do in a closed pattern? For the purposes of the exercise, I feel like you're expected to run the whole list while on downwind.... which is doable but seems kinda silly in planes I've flown anyway. Just a quick GUMPS or whatever is appropriate for the machine will do
 
Like FastEddie, I configure the plane maybe 5 miles out, usually in descent. The fuel stuff, etc. Then I run the checklist. To check the things I've already done. Downwind at the numbers, I just have 3 items - gear, carb-heat, fly the f&*n airplane. Then it's just speeds, power, flaps as required. Base turn, it's gear, full rich, fly the plane. Final, it's gear, full rich, full forward prop, fly the plane. Short final it's gear, mix/prop, and double check my numbers. Go around is nose down a bit, full throttle, carb heat out, get the speed up, flaps out, climb.

If I were instructing, especially in a warrior, I'd make sure my students had that go around procedure down pat. Doing it backwards is not a good thing.
 
You don’t need a book checklist for a single engine piston. This is the checklist we use at work. Super simple and only hit the killer items. When I fly GA, I’ll usually run the before landing checklist a little before entering the pattern so I’m not distracted while instead the pattern i

cFL0MMF.jpg
 
HF17 said:
Do you guys normally complete the before landing checklist on downwind while staying in the traffic pattern? The airplane flying handbook says to complete all before landing checks on downwind.
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SEP the vast majority is done even prior to the pattern except the various flap settings, even dropping the gear for me. Everything in the pattern is re-checking that it was all done and if you mean by checklist pulling a card out and reading it then no I don't do that.

Even in the tradition-bound Navy in dual crew aircraft the landing checks were challenge and verify.

3 down and locked
Flaps 30, stab shifted, slats out
Hook up/down
Wing fuel PSI lights on
Airspeed / AoA crosscheck
 
Cherokee Before Landing Descent
ATIS/AWOS ...........................AS NEEDED
Altimeter .............................SET
BGUMPS
Fuel Pump ............................ ON
Fuel Selector ........................ FULLEST
Mixture ................................ENRICH
Seatbelts .............................. ON
Landing Light ..........................ON
Primer ..................................IN & LOCKED
Autopilot .............................. OFF
 
I'll admit, I'm not a big fan of whipping out the paper checklist for Before Landing in a single pilot situation. Fishing out the checklist from a pocket or under the seat or where ever its hiding, then reading it off and checking items, is diverting your attention probably during a phase of flight that it shouldn't be. If you are doing that, definitely want to complete it before entering the pattern. Trouble is there may be items on there that don't need to be completed until in the pattern.

Now for most airplanes, a simple checklist is often printed on the panel, which makes it easier. All of the Cherokees I have taught in have basic Take-off and Landing Checklist right on the panel.

For other aircraft, GUMPS is really simple to memorize and run through. My version is below:

G - Gas on a good tank
U - Undercarriage down and locked
M - Mixture full
P - Prop ahead
S - Switches all on (pumps, lights, etc.)

Truthfully for the average GA pilot, most of the items on a Before Landing checklist, probably aren't safety critical. I'll pick on Murphey just because it was right above this post.

murphey said:
Cherokee Before Landing Descent
ATIS/AWOS ...........................AS NEEDED
Altimeter .............................SET
BGUMPS
Fuel Pump ............................ ON
Fuel Selector ........................ FULLEST
Mixture ................................ENRICH
Seatbelts .............................. ON
Landing Light ..........................ON
Primer ..................................IN & LOCKED
Autopilot .............................. OFF
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ATIS/AWOS - Probably not bad, but you should have a good idea of the winds.
Altimeter - Doesn't hurt to set, but probably isn't off by much since it has already been set at some point in this flight
Fuel Pump - Good to have on if the engine driven pump fails, although odds of a failure at that particular moment are probably low.
Fuel Selector - Assuming you haven't turned it off in the last 5 minuts, or run the tank dry, its currently working just fine as is.
Mixture - If overly lean for the density altitude, could cause the engine to quit, so higher priority.
Seatbelts - Did someone take them off? :p
Landing light - During the day not an issue, at night you'll find out soon enough!
Primer - If it was in and locked at takeoff, I would resume it hasn't moved!
Autopilot off - Might make things a little easier if you aren't trying to overpower it.

The big one is the gear. If they retract, make @#$% sure you put them out! That makes it so much easier to taxi!
 
midwestpa24 said:
I'll admit, I'm not a big fan of whipping out the paper checklist for Before Landing in a single pilot situation. Fishing out the checklist from a pocket or under the seat or where ever its hiding, then reading it off and checking items, is diverting your attention probably during a phase of flight that it shouldn't be. If you are doing that, definitely want to complete it before entering the pattern. Trouble is there may be items on there that don't need to be completed until in the pattern.

Now for most airplanes, a simple checklist is often printed on the panel, which makes it easier. All of the Cherokees I have taught in have basic Take-off and Landing Checklist right on the panel.

For other aircraft, GUMPS is really simple to memorize and run through. My version is below:

G - Gas on a good tank
U - Undercarriage down and locked
M - Mixture full
P - Prop ahead
S - Switches all on (pumps, lights, etc.)

Truthfully for the average GA pilot, most of the items on a Before Landing checklist, probably aren't safety critical. I'll pick on Murphey just because it was right above this post.



ATIS/AWOS - Probably not bad, but you should have a good idea of the winds.
Altimeter - Doesn't hurt to set, but probably isn't off by much since it has already been set at some point in this flight
Fuel Pump - Good to have on if the engine driven pump fails, although odds of a failure at that particular moment are probably low.
Fuel Selector - Assuming you haven't turned it off in the last 5 minuts, or run the tank dry, its currently working just fine as is.
Mixture - If overly lean for the density altitude, could cause the engine to quit, so higher priority.
Seatbelts - Did someone take them off? :p
Landing light - During the day not an issue, at night you'll find out soon enough!
Primer - If it was in and locked at takeoff, I would resume it hasn't moved!
Autopilot off - Might make things a little easier if you aren't trying to overpower it.

The big one is the gear. If they retract, make @#$% sure you put them out! That makes it so much easier to taxi!
Click to expand...

I agree entirely....around here (the hills) it's necessary to get the ATIS/AWOS about 10 nm out to make sure you have current winds and altimeter. I never turn off the headlight until in the hangar. Fuel selector - same as takeoff - I don't switch tanks after runup, I don't switch tanks before landing - never know what's going to happen.
 
midwestpa24 said:
I'll admit, I'm not a big fan of whipping out the paper checklist for Before Landing in a single pilot situation. Fishing out the checklist from a pocket or under the seat or where ever its hiding…
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If it’s part of your S.O.P., it’s hardly going to be buried or “hiding”. Mine is laminated and on my kneeboard.
Others have checklists on the panel. Some have them a button push or two away on their MFD’s. If you have to fish for it, you’re doing it wrong.
 
Ours tucks nicely into the top of the side panel, easy to grab at any time.

i-g4bZn4G-X3.jpg
 
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flyingron said:
When flying with others for the first time, I always say "Let me read the instructions" when I pick up the checklist.
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OK ... I'm stealing this to use from now on! :rofl::rofl::rofl:
 
I normally do the landing check list after contacting tower, 5 miles out or so at a non controlled field. Not much of a list in a fixed gear, fixed prop piston engine plane...:rolleyes:
 
FastEddieB said:
If it’s part of your S.O.P., it’s hardly going to be buried or “hiding”. Mine is laminated and on my kneeboard.
Others have checklists on the panel. Some have them a button push or two away on their MFD’s. If you have to fish for it, you’re doing it wrong.
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Agreed.

Yes, a busy traffic pattern is not a good place for a checklist. But that's not an excuse - actually, it is an excuse, just not a reason - to forego use entirely.

Like several others, I accomplish most of the so-called "Landing" checklist tasks 10 miles away. That's the last decision point for me to do things like consider switching tanks. The checklist in this case is, for me more a briefing of essential tasks to come than either a "read and do" or a "flow and check."

the flip side - the "excuse" for not using it can lead to this story I've told before (copy and paste):


Checklist Use.

Here's the problem with not using them. You end up with a habit pattern that actively prevents using a checklist when you need it. Example:

I was doing transition training for a pilot moving from a 172 to a 182. One of the easiest transitions around because of the many similarities. But, again and again and again, the pilot neglected to adjust cowl flaps. Two things were going on.

His "flow" was actually a memorization of, say, the two main items on the 172 before landing checklist, not a true flow considering everything changeable. So his hand would go right past the cowl flap lever but never stop there.

The other was, despite repeated "you are missing something" prompts from me, he not once went to the checklist for his answer. The checklist was sitting on the glareshield in his line of sight but his habit of not using it had internalized to such a degree that it did not exist for him.

Consider the effect of that no use habit in a stressful emergency situation in a less than familiar aircraft.
 
@midlifeflyer im finding rental tricky in the new aviation world I’m just re-entering.

My local FBO has an Arrow to rent that has pretty good availability and your point on a built habit is my biggest hurdle.

I haven’t had to put the gear down in 28 years and about 450 hrs. I’m going to forget.

I feel like it’s too late to try retract.

So, for now, I’m just watching the schedule looking for the unicorn opportunity of time from work, time from kids, good weather and a plane on short notice.

Not so easy anymore!
 
Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) said:
@midlifeflyer im finding rental tricky in the new aviation world I’m just re-entering.

My local FBO has an Arrow to rent that has pretty good availability and your point on a built habit is my biggest hurdle.

I haven’t had to put the gear down in 28 years and about 450 hrs. I’m going to forget.

I feel like it’s too late to try retract.

So, for now, I’m just watching the schedule looking for the unicorn opportunity of time from work, time from kids, good weather and a plane on short notice.

Not so easy anymore!
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Habits can be built. I've always been pretty good at the before landing checklist precisely because I have always been a renter/group member. I still rotate among 4-5 from an LSA to an Ovation. Gear aside, I need to remind myself of Vref! But other than that, I've been pretty bad with in-flight checklists.

I'm no kid anymore. A few years ago I went to an aging pilot presentation. Physician/pilot well into his 70s. His point about checklists was simple. Normal cognitive decline means developing good checklist procedures equals aviation longevity. Made sense to me and I have forced myself to get better at it.

I think there are two keys to creating a habit. One is to make deviation inconvenient or silly. The idea is to give it a memory trigger. So do it when you realize you didn't. It's silly to run the after takeoff/climb checklist after you level off and are setting up cruise, but do it anyway.

The second is self-evaluation. Do a post-flight debriefing. In fact, do it in writing. Evaluate your checklist use and compliment/reward yourself when you did good. That was my primary tool for developing better checklist habits.

BTW, to me a HUGE component of good gear management is a consistent, habitual, SOP. I have one for visual approaches and one for instrument approaches. The gear goes down same time, every time. The closest I've come to landing gear up was when I tried to change my SOP. OTOH, I'm convinced that I didn't land gear up in an emergency because of it (I don't even recall putting it down).
 
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flyingron said:
When flying with others for the first time, I always say "Let me read the instructions" when I pick up the checklist.
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That, and flopping the yoke back and forth while taxiing, "Holy cow, I can't steer this thing!"
 
An issue, I think with the idea that a certain task is completed the same way, the same time, every time.... is that when something interrupts that pattern, a person is likely to get a bit rattled.
 
Brad W said:
An issue, I think with the idea that a certain task is completed the same way, the same time, every time.... is that when something interrupts that pattern, a person is likely to get a bit rattled.
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Nothing is a sure thing and distractions can screw with most anything. I recall a CFI on another board in a gear thread saying he could make any of us forget the gear. I agreed. That's why we have redundancy - SOP and checklist and mantra. But I've found consistent SOPs to be the opposite. Habits are, by their nature, resistant to being broken. I've done sudden unanticipated turns in a car - with the turn signal because I don't think about it.

Funny illustration about my gear SOP. When I get checked out in a retract, I tell the CFI my visual gear SOP since it's not the common abeam on downwind. In my case, it's within 3 miles of the airport at pattern altitude. So, we're coming back to home base after a cross country and my instructor starts chuckling. I turn to him questioningly and he points to my right hand. I descended early and was at pattern altitude but well more than 3 miles away. Without me even being aware of it, my right hand was hovering over the gear handle and shaking in anticipation.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Habits can be built. I've always been pretty good at the before landing checklist precisely because I have always been a renter/group member. I still rotate among 4-5 from an LSA to an Ovation. Gear aside, I need to remind myself of Vref! But other than that, I've been pretty bad with in-flight checklists.

I'm no kid anymore. A few years ago I went to an aging pilot presentation. Physician/pilot well into his 70s. His point about checklists was simple. Normal cognitive decline means developing good checklist procedures equals aviation longevity. Made sense to me and I have forced myself to get better at it.

I think there are two keys to creating a habit. One is to make deviation inconvenient or silly. The idea is to give it a memory trigger. So do it when you realize you didn't. It's silly to run the after takeoff/climb checklist after you level off and are setting up cruise, but do it anyway.

The second is self-evaluation. Do a post-flight debriefing. In fact, do it in writing. Evaluate your checklist use and compliment/reward yourself when you did good. That was my primary tool for developing better checklist habits.

BTW, to me a HUGE component of good gear management is a consistent, habitual, SOP. I have one for visual approaches and one for instrument approaches. The gear goes down same time, every time. The closest I've come to landing gear up was when I tried to change my SOP. OTOH, I'm convinced that I didn't land gear up in an emergency because of it (I don't even recall putting it down).
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I've noticed the same need for more consistent checklist use as I age.

I don't currently have access to a retractable, but when I do, my SOP is gear down when turning downwind. For a straight-in, it's the final approach fix, or if it's a VFR straight in, it's when I begin the final descent. It can be earlier if needed for speed control, but those are points where I make sure the gear are down (and again on short final).

When I completed renewing my Arrow currency a couple of years ago, the instructor declared that he had no worries about me forgetting the gear. I'm not so confident about that; in fact, I FEAR such confidence!

I've always felt that the old saying, "There's those who have, and there's those who will" smacked of resignation, which is one of the FAA-identified hazardous attitudes. I prefer "There's those who have, and there's those who might."
 
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Palmpilot said:
When I completed renewing my Arrow currency a couple of years ago, the instructor declared that he had no worries about me forgetting the gear. I'm not so confident about that; in fact, I FEAR such confidence!
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I think it was Rod Machado who said that a little paranoia about the gear is a good thing.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I think it was Rod Machado who said that a little paranoia about the gear is a good thing.
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I would agree. Even at this point in my life, I am anxious to get the gear down. No one wants to be that guy. The nice thing about the Comanche is you would have to make a concentrated effort to get to flap speed with the gear up. It usually takes pulling power back to at least 15 inches or less just to make my gear speed of 125mph (150 mph is max, but 125 mph is recommended). Granted its been done before, and will be done again.

My other process is to always go through GUMPS 3 times. Downwind, base, and final in a visual pattern, or on a straight in approach at FAF, 1000ft to minimums, 500ft to minimums. I also follow it up with an audible Gear Down, Green Light when crossing the fence as a final check.
 
Never. That's why I need a checklist to leave the house.
car keys.
wallet
phone
fuel level
what else did I forget?

Sent from my SM-A515U using Tapatalk
 
jordane93 said:
You don’t need a book checklist for a single engine piston. This is the checklist we use at work. Super simple and only hit the killer items. When I fly GA, I’ll usually run the before landing checklist a little before entering the pattern so I’m not distracted while instead the pattern i

cFL0MMF.jpg
Click to expand...
you need to stop flying dinosaurs! man that preflight is long! my checklist for the bus has 11 items in the before start!
 
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