Check my math.. our my cost estimates accurate.

Dave Anderson

Dave Anderson

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SkyDreams
I've read all the posts on how much plane should/can I afford. The last 2 years have slightly changed my mindset toward these types of purchases and enjoying life while I can. I've owned boats before and at one point thought I would not do that again.

I'm 47 and based on the estimates below a plane would be about 15% of my take-home income (all in based on below). My only other debt is my home and I'm still maxing out my 401k and still able to save.

I've landed on buying a Bristell 914T w 700 hrs as I have my PPL-G and Sport Licence. My wife has flown with me and as she states, as long as i don't do anything stupid she will continue to do so. We have a house in VA while we live in PA, so we will use it for light travel and trips such as that. A 1hr:30 min flight beats a 5.5hr drive. I've considered both leaseback and partnership but either don't appeal to me as I know how I will take care of the aircraft

I want another set of eyes on my figures, what am I missing? I did just realize that I didn't include subscriptions for Garmin and Foreflight.
PlaneCosts.JPG
 
Dave Anderson said:
I've read all the posts on how much plane should/can I afford. The last 2 years have slightly changed my mindset toward these types of purchases and enjoying life while I can. I've owned boats before and at one point thought I would not do that again.

I'm 47 and based on the estimates below a plane would be about 15% of my take-home income (all in based on below). My only other debt is my home and I'm still maxing out my 401k and still able to save.

I've landed on buying a Bristell 914T w 700 hrs as I have my PPL-G and Sport Licence. My wife has flown with me and as she states, as long as i don't do anything stupid she will continue to do so. We have a house in VA while we live in PA, so we will use it for light travel and trips such as that. A 1hr:30 min flight beats a 5.5hr drive. I've considered both leaseback and partnership but either don't appeal to me as I know how I will take care of the aircraft

I want another set of eyes on my figures, what am I missing? I did just realize that I didn't include subscriptions for Garmin and Foreflight.
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Subscription’s to Garmin and Foreflight are unnecessary, there are free ways to get what you need.
 
Check out the property taxes in PA.
It may or may not be significant for your aircraft.
 
I’m not as apt to contribute by overseeing your math but more by congratulating you on something many pilots do wrong and that you’re doing right.

that is, having a true purpose.

many get licenses, and sometimes airplanes without the purpose for flying. You have the second house and purpose in place and you and your wife are going to enjoy your decision!
 
Adam Weiss said:
Check out the property taxes in PA.
It may or may not be significant for your aircraft.
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That is going to be a whole other thread question. No property tax in PA, but I'm keeping the aircraft at KHGR (Maryland). Don't get me started on the sales tax, our government is a complete waste of resources, I don't want them to have another 10k on top of what I already give them. I'm also near p-40 TFR and close enough to Delaware to see the TFR every weekend at one or the other. I'll stop venting now as I could go on for hours.
 
My only advice would be to have a solid chunk of cash locked away in an account somewhere to deal with unplanned maintenance related items that WILL come up from time to time. There is no right or wrong answer for the amount you should have in reserve but I like to plan conservatively and lock away the amount of a full engine overhaul, or in my case, set or main rotor blades. It is a more conservative approach and may limit aircraft purchase choices but not having the cash readily available will get even more expensive if you have to borrow for major repairs.
 
Paul V said:
My only advice would be to have a solid chunk of cash locked away in an account somewhere to deal with unplanned maintenance related items that WILL come up from time to time. There is no right or wrong answer for the amount you should have in reserve but I like to plan conservatively and lock away the amount of a full engine overhaul, or in my case, set or main rotor blades. It is a more conservative approach and may limit aircraft purchase choices but not having the cash readily available will get even more expensive if you have to borrow for major repairs.
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I have half earmarked for an overhaul. Part of the deal with the wife is this doesn't touch our personal emergency fund. I'll also be putting the engine and prop reserved into a separate savings account each month as I fly.
 
Paul V said:
My only advice would be to have a solid chunk of cash locked away in an account somewhere to deal with unplanned maintenance related items that WILL come up from time to time. There is no right or wrong answer for the amount you should have in reserve but I like to plan conservatively and lock away the amount of a full engine overhaul, or in my case, set or main rotor blades. It is a more conservative approach and may limit aircraft purchase choices but not having the cash readily available will get even more expensive if you have to borrow for major repairs.
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I agree. I always kept $10k just for my cherokee, not included in any house or family emergency fund...but then, I'm the "when it breaks, fix it" type of owner that won't allow even the carpet to have so much as a rip. I did once need to dip into that fund when I had some engine problems. This fund was in addition to the overhaul fund that I kept. I have an arrow now, and I'm keeping $15k around just for incidentals.
BTW, maybe you got a quote, but your insurance budget seems too high.
 
tawood said:
I agree. I always kept $10k just for my cherokee, not included in any house or family emergency fund...but then, I'm the "when it breaks, fix it" type of owner that won't allow even the carpet to have so much as a rip. I did once need to dip into that fund when I had some engine problems. This fund was in addition to the overhaul fund that I kept. I have an arrow now, and I'm keeping $15k around just for incidentals.
BTW, maybe you got a quote, but your insurance budget seems too high.
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Low time pilot, (just over 105hrs) I checked numerous places that were the best I could do. Partially due to hull value and LSA. I'm told it will reduce after 50 hrs in type and more total time.
 
First-year maintenance costs are often higher, due to the previous owner deferring.

If you can find a type club or type-specific forum, you might get good info there.

Insurance costs might go down after a few years as you gain experience and make no claims.
 
Dave Anderson said:
I'm 47 and based on the estimates below a plane would be about 15% of my take-home income (all in based on below). My only other debt is my home and I'm still maxing out my 401k and still able to save.
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What you say here is good but insufficient data. I’d need to know your current net worth and your structured plan for retirement. What do you want your net worth to be then? Your income? Your expenses? Have you considered the cost of Medicare supplemental insurance? You want to risk going without it? How will you pay for LTC? Insurance or will you be rich enough to self insure? Do you plan to still own a plane with all the associated expenses? Do you want to leave anything for your heirs? And so on.

Don’t answer these questions here. I’m saying, don’t make a purchase like this without first doing the above planning. Sounds like you might have but you’d be surprised how many people arrive to their 50s without having given any thought at all to retirement other than maxing out the 401(k). That alone is not enough. But at least you’re doing that and have no debt other than a mortgage.

The details of your chart don’t matter from that standpoint. That it is 15% of your take home pay doesn’t matter. Will you and your wife make do with the other 85% for all other expenditures? What matters is how you budget it all together.

Having said that, I don’t mean your numbers don’t matter in an absolute sense, they do, and it is great you are considering them in such detail. If you apply (or have applied) that sort of analysis to retirement planning and the plane fits into the overall picture still leaving you a comfortable retirement then you’re good.

Sorry, I know you asked for analysis of your numbers but you opened the subject of overall financial picture by mentioning percent income, lack of debt, etc. so I’m taking the liberty to give more overall advice. :)

My wife has flown with me and as she states, as long as i don't do anything stupid she will continue to do so
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Uh oh. Anybody else see the contractual gotcha here? You wife needs to be more specific, like anything stupid in the airplane. Even then she could at any time invoke the “right to change my mind” clause that is standard boilerplate with females.

Seriously though, having a 2nd home to fly to is an excellent mission for a plane, that was one of our main missions and it worked out great. The distances were about that too, it was well worth it.
 
luvflyin said:
See, I told ya, the cheapskates have arrived:fingerwag::goofy: I think fltplan.com is another one
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Yeah, I would try them all first, I personally didn’t like FF, and Flyplan is worst…so ended up with GP because it’s interface is same as all their other devices.
Mike Tysons quote of “we all have a plan until you get punched in the mouth “ comes to mind.
 
Rushie said:
………Uh oh. Anybody else see the contractual gotcha here? You wife needs to be more specific, like anything stupid in the airplane. Even then she could at any time invoke the “right to change my mind” clause that is standard boilerplate with females……
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She could simply declare that buying the plane was stoopid. Did you check with Sisterhood Headquarters to see if it’s ok to divulge all that info? You might be in trouble:ihih:
 
Rushie said:
I’d need to know your current net worth and your structured plan for retirement. What do you want your net worth to be then?

Don’t answer these questions here. I’m saying, don’t make a purchase like this without first doing the above planning. Sounds like you might have but you’d be surprised how many people arrive to their 50s without having given any thought at all to retirement other than maxing out the 401(k). That alone is not enough. But at least you’re doing that and have no debt other than a mortgage.

Sorry, I know you asked for analysis of your numbers but you opened the subject of overall financial picture by mentioning percent income, lack of debt, etc. so I’m taking the liberty to give more overall advice. :)


Uh oh. Anybody else see the contractual gotcha here? You wife needs to be more specific, like anything stupid in the airplane. Even then she could at any time invoke the “right to change my mind” clause that is standard boilerplate with females.

Seriously though, having a 2nd home to fly to is an excellent mission for a plane, that was one of our main missions and it worked out great. The distances were about that too, it was well worth it.
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All great points! 401k and deferred comp can be enough and we don't live beyond our means. Our house has 200k equity and I have 2 other properties owned between my sister and myself.

The statement of my wife is more toward overtly stupid like aerobatics etc. Not happening in an LSA EVER! As you said, that can be a given I've been married long enough.
 
It looks like you're planning 12 hours per month. Obviously the cost per hour goes up with fewer hours.

"But honey, I HAVE to go fly or we'll lose money on the plane". :)
 
bflynn said:
It looks like you're planning 12 hours per month. Obviously the cost per hour goes up with fewer hours.

"But honey, I HAVE to go fly or we'll lose money on the plane". :)
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I can hear those words from my mouth, but honestly the total cost doesn't change. I've flown 55hrs so far this year renting. I can't tell you how many cancellations occurred over 100hr inspections or how many flights didn't occur because an LSA was not available.
 
Your numbers look good. One major caveat though... this is based on flying 140-150 hours per year, which is possible, but quite unlikely. I hope you prove us wrong. Most hobbyists will do 75-100 in a great flying year. You'll notice that if you do the math at half the hours, the cost for you is nearly the same per year, so the hourly is much higher. Does that mean you shouldn't buy? Of course not, if you can afford it and it's what you want, then go for it. It's good to see that you're being realistic about the cost of ownership.

BTW, is the airplane 700 hours or are you 700 hours experience?
 
samiamPA said:
Your numbers look good. One major caveat though... this is based on flying 140-150 hours per year, which is possible, but quite unlikely. I hope you prove us wrong. Most hobbyists will do 75-100 in a great flying year. You'll notice that if you do the math at half the hours, the cost for you is nearly the same per year, so the hourly is much higher. Does that mean you shouldn't buy? Of course not, if you can afford it and it's what you want, then go for it. It's good to see that you're being realistic about the cost of ownership.

BTW, is the airplane 700 hours or are you 700 hours experience?
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Airplane has 725 on the Rotax 914T

I'm just over 110 hrs at this point.

I'm also planning on doing my CFI-G and CFI-Sport in the next 24months. Things can always change but right now I have big plans and the wife is in board.
 
Dave Anderson said:
Who's saying she already hasn't? I'm more of the type to ask for forgiveness later and she's used to it.
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Actually my husband can put his foot down with me when it’s important enough to him. When we got married we had both had flying lessons long before we ever met and we had vague plans to maybe get our tickets some day but were still young and poorish with two tiny kids and I wasn’t ready, when he said one day, “I’m going back for my PPL now, and you can’t stop me. I’m putting my foot down,” and to illustrate, he lifted and replanted one foot. I knew it was no use arguing. I went back myself later, after the kids were bigger. I guess the difference is I had always wanted to get back into aviation too, he just had more aggressive timing than I did.
 
My only suggestion would be to break out fixed (Loan, hangar, insurance, taxes) from variable (Fuel, Oil, Maintenance). A good chunk of your costs are fixed even if you don't fly. Eyeballing, you are at about 18k for Loan, Insurance and hangar. Your variable costs are actually quite minimal. Reason I mention this is two fold. 1. Understand your minimum outlay without selling if money gets tight for some reason. 2. Your incremental cost of one more flight hour is pretty low. Mentally, I would not think it costs you >$300 hour to fly, rather it's like $50 to $75/hour. Fly the crap out of it if you decide to buy.
 
You're missing the database subscriptions on the G3x, the GNC255 and the yet to be installed GPS175. You can get by without them for VFR but you'll want at least the GPS175 for IFR.
 
Rushie said:
Actually my husband can put his foot down with me when it’s important enough to him. When we got married we had both had flying lessons long before we ever met and we had vague plans to maybe get our tickets some day but were still young and poorish with two tiny kids and I wasn’t ready, when he said one day, “I’m going back for my PPL now, and you can’t stop me. I’m putting my foot down,” and to illustrate, he lifted and replanted one foot. I knew it was no use arguing. I went back myself later, after the kids were bigger. I guess the difference is I had always wanted to get back into aviation too, he just had more aggressive timing than I did.
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She's willing to do a pinch hitter course but isn't ready to get a ticket. She loves weekend trips to go hike and a plane in the Northeast is perfect for that.
 
Hang 4 said:
My only suggestion would be to break out fixed (Loan, hangar, insurance, taxes) from variable (Fuel, Oil, Maintenance). A good chunk of your costs are fixed even if you don't fly. Eyeballing, you are at about 18k for Loan, Insurance and hangar. Your variable costs are actually quite minimal. Reason I mention this is two fold. 1. Understand your minimum outlay without selling if money gets tight for some reason. 2. Your incremental cost of one more flight hour is pretty low. Mentally, I would not think it costs you >$300 hour to fly, rather it's like $50 to $75/hour. Fly the crap out of it if you decide to buy.
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Good points

I want to be adamant about putting away a engine and prop fund to avoid touching the personal side.
 
samiamPA said:
Your numbers look good. One major caveat though... this is based on flying 140-150 hours per year, which is possible, but quite unlikely. I hope you prove us wrong. Most hobbyists will do 75-100 in a great flying year.
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So true, since Covid my extra long cross country trips have been canceled or I just drove. Without them I am struggling to get to 100 hours.
 
Dave Anderson said:
She's willing to do a pinch hitter course but isn't ready to get a ticket. She loves weekend trips to go hike and a plane in the Northeast is perfect for that.
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Willing to do pinch hitter is huge! Good for her.
 
Dave Anderson said:
I figure about 1k a year including foreflight. Harmon won't quote subscriptions without the serial #
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$500 for just the GPS175 and just the USA, $650 for a USA-only OnePak bundle, $800 for USA-only OnePak+FliteCharts. Add another $200-$250 if you want Jeppesen charts. Add another $100-200 if you also want Mexico and Canada.

If you go ultra-cheap, you can update just the nav data on just the GPS175 for $300 and buy the other databases on an as-needed basis.

I seem to recall Garmin Pilot being included in some of the bundles. I don't see mention of that any more.
 
asicer said:
$500 for just the GPS175 and just the USA, $650 for a USA-only OnePak bundle, $800 for USA-only OnePak+FliteCharts. Add another $200-$250 if you want Jeppesen charts. Add another $100-200 if you also want Mexico and Canada.

If you go ultra-cheap, you can update just the nav data on just the GPS175 for $300 and buy the other databases on an as-needed basis.

I seem to recall Garmin Pilot being included in some of the bundles. I don't see mention of that any more.
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I'd say for just some basic IFR training I'll probably not spend a bunch. If I decide to add the GPS-175 and get more serious about going for 3rd class,etc then it won't take much to make the plane capable. It can then be converted to E-LSA but at that point a 4 seater is likely in my future
 
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