Cheap Fixer upper or nice

[brien23]

With prices as low as they are now on good planes why would anyone buy a fixer upper. What planes are selling for now are a great value, a fraction of what the sellers probably have tied up in their planes. Some people ask big bucks looking for a sucker to buy it and those planes sit others don't have a clue as to the real value of what they have. Worst of all grampa old Stearman biplane plane and the kids don't have any idea of what they have, or want to keep paying the hangar rent just get rid of it.

 

[coloradobluesky]

Mechanics buy them. I know a mechanic that bought a 70's 172 for 5k. Another bought an Arrow for 16.5k. A twin commache went for 5k. All really low and it depends GREATLY on how much work they need. A lot of these mechanics have retirement from previous job and fixing up airplanes is really just a hobby.

If you want to buy a plane to fly with as little trouble as possible, get a cream puff. Fixing things isn't just expensive, it is a headache and means you can't fly it while its down.

 

[James331]

Depends on the type of plane, your abilities, your mission and the price.

Sometimes it might make sense, sometimes not.

Stuff like a IO550ed skywagon ending up better buying a skywagon with a blown motor and doing the swap, vs paying for a 550ed plane.

Just depends.

 

[Grum.Man]

Yea people think project planes are worth gold. Fact is they are pretty much worthless except for someone who just wants to make it their own. Fact is airplanes are not investments anymore and never will be again. The only reason I would buy a major project plane is if I really wanted that one specific type of airplane and wanted to make it like new. Yes you could still buy one that has already been done for less, but you would know exactly what you have.

 

[Tom-D]

Some one bid $7500 for this,, ya just never know

 

[James331]

Yea people think project planes are worth gold. Fact is they are pretty much worthless except for someone who just wants to make it their own. Fact is airplanes are not investments anymore and never will be again. The only reason I would buy a major project plane is if I really wanted that one specific type of airplane and wanted to make it like new. Yes you could still buy one that has already been done for less, but you would know exactly what you have.

Depends on how you buy, folks do make money off these things.

 

[Tom-D]

You make money buying, never selling.

 

[Tom-D]

Depends on how you buy, folks do make money off these things.

Not any more, unless it has a very high retail sales price.
to rehab an old tired aircraft you will have $30-40,000 invested and buyers won't pay more that than for them.

 

[Grum.Man]

Depends on how you buy, folks do make money off these things.

Those are definitely the exceptions rather than the standard. Rich get richer scenarios, right place right time with cash can score you a good deal. I have WAY less in my Venture than it's worth but way more in my Grumman than it's worth. Kind of a wash for me.

 

[James331]

You make money buying, never selling.

Would have loved to have met you when I sold cars.

Now doing a full on project, that's going to be tuff to make money on, but buying a turn key plane for the right price and selling it, especially in a rich state like CA for more, that's not too tuff, spruce up the paint and make new carpets for a PA28, not too bad.

 

[Tom-D]

Would have loved to have met you when I sold cars.

Now doing a full on project, that's going to be tuff to make money on, but buying a turn key plane for the right price and selling it, especially in a rich state like CA for more, that's not too tuff, spruce up the paint and make new carpets for a PA28, not too bad.

Do you realize that untainted white base is now $300.00 per gallon, then buy the hardener for another $100.00 and the thinner for $90.00.
Split leather cow hide was $125 per hide, now it's $550.00
A mag and harness kit is now $3,000, Carbs are now $1700.00 shop rates are now over $200 in most av-shops.

No profit, no interest.

 

[Grum.Man]

And let's not even get into the cost of a new fabric job!! I see what looks like good deals on old Stinsons both the 108 and V77 type and old Fairchilds.. I then have to remind my self a new cover and pain job would be well north of 40k on the bigger birds.

 

[MickYoumans]

With prices as low as they are now on good planes why would anyone buy a fixer upper.

I think a lot depends on your situation in life and the mission you intend for your plane. I purchased my plane in my mid-50's with the intention of fixing it up for my retirement years. I also wanted to find something I could pay cash for and not go into debt this close to retirement.

I found a Cherokee with a good solid airframe that I thought was worth restoring. It had 2000 hours total on the airframe and engine. The guy I bought the plane from was going through a divorce and with the engine being at TBO, I was able to purchase the airplane pretty cheap. I spent the first couple of years getting everything in great mechanical shape first. About a year after getting it mechanically sound, I put in a new radio stack. A year after that we needed to pull the interior out to inspect the control cables, linkages and pulleys during that annual. It was the perfect time to install a new interior including new plexiglass all around. I was able to fly that engine to just over 2300 hours before it started having compression issues so we pulled the engine and sent it to Triad in Burlington NC for a major overhaul including all new Lycoming cylinder kits. The only thing left at that point was the paint job. I saved up for a year and a half and searched around to find a good shop to paint my plane. Last October I got the airplane painted to finish my refurb project.

So now I have an "almost like new" Cherokee with the radios I like, the interior I like and the paint scheme and colors I like that should require minimal maintenance through my upcoming retirement years. As long as my health holds out, I will have a nice little plane that should be fairly inexpensive to operate for traveling to see family, going to fly-ins and making the $100 hamburger flights. I know my airlane inside and out and I will be the one getting the good out of the new radios, interior and paint. I'm not interested in the resale value. By the time I get to a point where I would be selling the plane 10 to 15 years from now, I will have gotten most of the good out of my investment and have remained debt free through the process.

So, I think there are some situations where refurbing a plane is a good way to go. There is another intangible here too. I also had a great time going through the refurb process. It was fun seeing that old plane come back to life.

I would throw out a big caution though. Don't buy an inexpensive airplane thinking you are going to fly on the cheap. You need to be realistic about the maintenance that will be needed to keep it airworthy if it is in poor shape. With all of that properly taken into consideration, you can upgrade various portions of the plane along as you have extra money and eventually wind up with a nice airplane.

Food for thought from a different perspective.

 

[weirdjim]

I'm pretty in line with Mick. Back in '88 I bought a '58 C-182A that was sitting in a farmer's field with (literally) chickens roosting on the back seat, the wings off and stored in an old barn, paint peeling, and the motor knocking. $4k. It obviously wasn't flyable home, so I got a local IA to put in new control cables, new bladders, and found an off-duty Navy painter that was a wizard with the best grade automotive polyurethane I could get. Made a paint booth in an old barn with plastic sheeting. Motor knock was a busted starter adapter. Flew it home (500 miles) on a ferry permit with pillows over the open springs in the seat and a handheld for whatever comm I needed. Spent two years going over every blessed inch of the machine from spinner to tail light. Got an Airtex interior that made it pretty damned close to what came out of Wichita in the '50s. Crates of chromate primer and interior paint. Swapped some stuff I didn't need for a couple of old but reliable King KX-170s. When I was all done I had (have) $25k in it. Put a thousand hours on it and my widow will be the one that sells it.

Yeah, I was and am an A&P/IA, so I could sign off a lot of the stuff, but there are two or three of the same breed on the field that will let you do most anything LEGAL you want to do for a bottle of good scotch or a case of good beer. Small town airport, easy going. Besides, log everything you do (including crap like this on the internet where you are getting advice and information) and get that same A&P to sign a letter that he attests to your work hours and you can sit for your OWN A&P after 30 months of full time work on your own airplane.

Jim

 

[Grum.Man]

I'm pretty in line with Mick. Back in '88 I bought a '58 C-182A that was sitting in a farmer's field with (literally) chickens roosting on the back seat, the wings off and stored in an old barn, paint peeling, and the motor knocking. $4k. It obviously wasn't flyable home, so I got a local IA to put in new control cables, new bladders, and found an off-duty Navy painter that was a wizard with the best grade automotive polyurethane I could get. Made a paint booth in an old barn with plastic sheeting. Motor knock was a busted starter adapter. Flew it home (500 miles) on a ferry permit with pillows over the open springs in the seat and a handheld for whatever comm I needed. Spent two years going over every blessed inch of the machine from spinner to tail light. Got an Airtex interior that made it pretty damned close to what came out of Wichita in the '50s. Crates of chromate primer and interior paint. Swapped some stuff I didn't need for a couple of old but reliable King KX-170s. When I was all done I had (have) $25k in it. Put a thousand hours on it and my widow will be the one that sells it.

Yeah, I was and am an A&P/IA, so I could sign off a lot of the stuff, but there are two or three of the same breed on the field that will let you do most anything LEGAL you want to do for a bottle of good scotch or a case of good beer. Small town airport, easy going. Besides, log everything you do (including crap like this on the internet where you are getting advice and information) and get that same A&P to sign a letter that he attests to your work hours and you can sit for your OWN A&P after 30 months of full time work on your own airplane.

Jim

That's a great story but that was almost 30 years ago. You would have to be pretty lucky to find a undamaged complete 182 today for that kind of money. The more desirable airplanes also have a better chance at being worth close to what you have in it when you are done.

For the two examples above buying a fixer upper makes sense. It was a useful airplane that had great parts availability and they planned to keep it for many years.

 

[Tom-D]

And let's not even get into the cost of a new fabric job!! I see what looks like good deals on old Stinsons both the 108 and V77 type and old Fairchilds.. I then have to remind my self a new cover and pain job would be well north of 40k on the bigger birds.

And why not?

Most of the re-cover jobs I see lately are owner done. I make as much money supervising them, as I would doing it myself. You can price the materials at AS&S too see the materials costs. The major cost is the repairs we need to get fixed prior to putting the fabric back on. Ive yet to see an old wood over tube construction that didn't need repairs equal to the costs of fabric covers.

 

[bluerooster]

I don't mind buying a reasonably priced flying project. But then I do most of the work myself, which knocks the labor cost down quite a bit.
And I get to thoroughly inspect every square inch of it while I'm working on it. When I get finished, and before it goes together, IA gives it yet another inspection, then I finish putting it together, and he gets to inspect again. After he signs the logs, I get to work for him (for free) to pay the inspection bill.

 

[kmead]

I've been looking at an early Malibu that is coming up. It's a total refurb, paint interior, avionics, probably an engine too. When I put the numbers to it I'm upside down. It's getting harder to sell the older models and make much money. If I do this this it will be more for the fun and less for the money.

 

[brien23]

What planes are worth a total refurb and what planes are a waist of time and money to rebuild.

 

[stratobee]

A fixer-upper can make sense for someone like myself at times. No savings, but good earnings and aversion to financing. Although the saying that it's much cheaper to buy the plane that's already done up is true, that's only true if you have the cash outright. If you don't, fixing it up is cheaper than financing the top of the market one.

 

[SCCutler]

A fixer-upper can make sense for someone like myself at times. No savings, but good earnings and aversion to financing. Although the saying that it's much cheaper to buy the plane that's already done up is true, that's only true if you have the cash outright. If you don't, fixing it up is cheaper than financing the top of the market one.

This, right here, is the main thing.

 

[mondtster]

What planes are worth a total refurb and what planes are a waist of time and money to rebuild.

I think that totally depends on how much you buy the project plane for and how much money needs to be spent on it, compared to its value once it is fixed up.

I just bought a Stinson 108-3 project for a very fair price. Especially since it was in annual and flying. Most people would probably say that a Stinson 108 would be a poor project plane due to the fact that there are nice examples for sale pretty cheap but how many of those planes come with floats, skis, big tires, Cleveland brakes, etc? It is going to require that I do a lot of work to make it nice but I think I can still come out ahead on this one.

 

[brien23]

I think that totally depends on how much you buy the project plane for and how much money needs to be spent on it, compared to its value once it is fixed up.

I just bought a Stinson 108-3 project for a very fair price. Especially since it was in annual and flying. Most people would probably say that a Stinson 108 would be a poor project plane due to the fact that there are nice examples for sale pretty cheap but how many of those planes come with floats, skis, big tires, Cleveland brakes, etc? It is going to require that I do a lot of work to make it nice but I think I can still come out ahead on this one.

If this is what you want after the work ahead of you, the end result should be what you want. Avionics is one of those upgrades people loose on, might help selling point but no way will you get back anything near what it cost to upgrade. You have to remember avionics gets old and outdated fast what is new today is old tomorrow. One has to make the decision is the project going to be my plane forever or to sell when you are done with the project.

 

[Tom-D]

If this is what you want after the work ahead of you, the end result should be what you want. Avionics is one of those upgrades people loose on, might help selling point but no way will you get back anything near what it cost to upgrade. You have to remember avionics gets old and outdated fast what is new today is old tomorrow. One has to make the decision is the project going to be my plane forever or to sell when you are done with the project.

There are exceptions to this. the War birds get their weight in 100 dollar bills dumped on them during restorations, most are worth it due to preserving history, vintage civil aircraft the same way. Pride in ownership has a value, Knowing what you build is worth some thing too.
But in General, the common spam can will never return enough profit to off set the cost of restoring them, Thats why I quit doing it.
Then there are shops that build aircraft like this, what is the value of a one of a kind aircraft?

 

[MooneyDriver78]

If this is what you want after the work ahead of you, the end result should be what you want. Avionics is one of those upgrades people loose on, might help selling point but no way will you get back anything near what it cost to upgrade. You have to remember avionics gets old and outdated fast what is new today is old tomorrow. One has to make the decision is the project going to be my plane forever or to sell when you are done with the project.

Depends on the price point of the plane, no matter how much paint, fancy interior and fancy avionics, a Cessna 150 isn't going to be worth that much more, it has a ceiling.
But get over $100K and people expect a GPS and autopilot, while you wont recover your "investment", you will get more of a return because there is more upside.

 

[coloradobluesky]

It's all about selling it for more than you have in it. So ANY airplane, if bought cheap enough can be sold for more and the guy doing this can make a profit. You have to find a bargain, a Cessna 172 that is an estate sale that goes for 5k and can be sold for 40k if made good and it only takes, well less than 35k to rebuild it.

 

[James331]

I think that totally depends on how much you buy the project plane for and how much money needs to be spent on it, compared to its value once it is fixed up.

I just bought a Stinson 108-3 project for a very fair price. Especially since it was in annual and flying. Most people would probably say that a Stinson 108 would be a poor project plane due to the fact that there are nice examples for sale pretty cheap but how many of those planes come with floats, skis, big tires, Cleveland brakes, etc? It is going to require that I do a lot of work to make it nice but I think I can still come out ahead on this one.

If you're going to hang on to it, it is also a far superior aircraft to most of the fleet, and in the right hands a VERY safe aircraft, I don't even want to mention some of the places I took my 108. It took a well into the six figures IFR amphib to get me out of my Stinson.

Step 1 S108
Step 2 C185
Step 3 DHC2
Step 4 DHC2T
Step 5 Being able to walk on water and turn water into wine

Obviously the cost to play goes up as you go

 

[Tom-D]

It's all about selling it for more than you have in it. So ANY airplane, if bought cheap enough can be sold for more and the guy doing this can make a profit. You have to find a bargain, a Cessna 172 that is an estate sale that goes for 5k and can be sold for 40k if made good and it only takes, well less than 35k to rebuild it.

There in lies the problem. The $5k aircraft are hard enough to find, but when you do, it requires more than $35k to restore them.
price a engine overhaul for a 0-300-D, and a C-172 of that year sells for less than that. now add new windows,$1500 paint job,$15-20k interior $2500, radios,10-20k.
Then try to sell it for what you have invested. You better have built it for yourself, and plan on keeping it for a long time.

 

[brien23]

What planes are worth a total refurb and what planes are a waist of time and money to rebuild.[/QUOTE]

C-150, early C172 are not good refurb projects how about a J3 cub or classic Stearman biplane, gull wing stinson. If you are going to spend all your time and effort into rebuilding a plane it would be nice to get some $$$ along with the satisfaction of the work.

 

[James331]

Depends on your skills and what your time is worth.

PA18s are normally a safe bet.

Skywagons ain't bad.

Stearmans are hit or miss.

 

[coloradobluesky]

It's not the model, it's the price. To make money you have to buy it right (that means for low cost of purchase).

 

[mondtster]

If you're going to hang on to it, it is also a far superior aircraft to most of the fleet, and in the right hands a VERY safe aircraft, I don't even want to mention some of the places I took my 108. It took a well into the six figures IFR amphib to get me out of my Stinson.

Step 1 S108
Step 2 C185
Step 3 DHC2
Step 4 DHC2T
Step 5 Being able to walk on water and turn water into wine

Obviously the cost to play goes up as you go

I'll likely keep the Stinson. I originally wanted a PA-18 with all the usual mods but the Stinson actually fits my needs better. Maybe someday I'll graduate to a C180 but I think it is going to take a lot to convince me that the difference in price is worth it for the added capability.